Forums » The Dire Lord

Dire Lord flex Tank/DPS class?

    • 7 posts
    August 9, 2018 9:06 AM PDT

    After watching the recent stream, does anyone else feel that the Dire Lord could flex between Tank/Offtank and a pure DPS role? With the ability to dual-wield or use 2handers, and with that "aura" or stance that gives them +crit damage.....it just feels that, if you would focus on having a separate gear set maximized for DPS it could work perfectly fine, so long as you dont use the aggro pulling skills. Thoughts?

    • 1660 posts
    August 9, 2018 9:13 AM PDT

    I wish but that would mean some loss in other departments against tank.

     

    Due to the numerous healing abilities the paladin has, I'm not worried about their tradeoff, however for the warrior... they seem gifted in the buff department which is great, but is that a compensation ?

    • 240 posts
    August 9, 2018 11:35 AM PDT

    While they may have higher dps than a Paladin or Warrior, I would hope that the Dire Lord's dps would never be as strong as that of a Ranger, Rogue, or Monk, as it would take a lot away from those classes if the DL could dps as well as them and also tank. I do think that the DL sounds like it would be a great offtank, though, for groups that already have a main tank. Their self-healing might mean less work for the healer, particularly if they tank the magic mobs and leave the melees to the main tank.

    • 7 posts
    August 9, 2018 11:57 AM PDT

    Yeah they sound like they will be the preferred offtank due to self healing abilities....but i also think they could be competent as pure DPS if they had a good pure DPS gear set, of course never top DPS in the charts.....but somewhere in the middle of the DPS pack i would say is possible, this is of course if they do get a good DPS gear set, which wont be easy for DL players since they will mostly be wanting tank gear. Just food for thought.

    • 129 posts
    August 24, 2018 8:02 PM PDT

    This comes up in every MMO, having the dark knight with the option of damage focus. It's always a compromise. You can't be a good tank and get good damage. Good damage being what a mage/rogue/monk/ranger puts out in some capacity, not what will make things less mind numbing trying to solo. Having more damage than the Pal/War may be one thing, but in the end it really only hurts the class. No one wants a tank for damage, everyone wants a tank that can hold mobs, survive hits, and keep the group alive.

    I think any +crit spells the DL gets is solely there to differentiate their tank style as in the way the class puts out damage to stay on par with other tanks, not other damage dealers. Likely, many people will never push to group with a tank that wants to DPS. You have taunt, you get to taunt. If you die repeatedly because you are "damage spec" then a replacement is needed.

    The fact that people are already calling the DL an offtank is worrying. It's already been stated/shown/noticed that they take serious spike damage, which is never fun to deal with in the long term. Putting them in some weird DPS phase will just turn them into the new EQ1 Ranger meme status imo. Light tank? No thanks.

    • 26 posts
    August 24, 2018 10:03 PM PDT

    DL are the caster tanks. Chris has mentioned this multiple times that DL can handle all content just like Paladin and Warriors; however, DL will perform best in caster fights while warriors will perform best in physical encounters.

    The caster boss in the community stream went really smoothly, and the DL may have been a big contribution as to why. I do not think it is fair to call DL/Pal as off tanks. All classes have a different flavor. I also think that all tank classes will perform as tanks primarily. Will DL may be able to dish out nice DPS and play a supportive role in the event that a group already has a tank. I think a DL will always be wanted in a group unless the group already has multiple tanks...

    I will be playing Pal because they are my favorite class. I wouldn't expect the Pal to ever main heal even if he "specs/gears" for it. I don't expect/demand that the Pal be on par with the DL when tanking casters nor do I care if the Pal is inferior. Likewise with the War with heavy hitting mobs.

    • 129 posts
    August 25, 2018 8:15 AM PDT

    I agree, very well put. I have read and heard multiple times Chris's thoughts on the DL. So I am hoping they actually follow through with placing a good mix of caster baddies into the game, bosses including. EQ had a lack of those I feel and for instance it wasn't until much later in EQ where Paladins became really desired due to undead bosses and mobs playing a larger role. Not that a well equipped Paladin and SK couldn't MT, we used plenty while we were super highly geared on Agnarr server and one of our SK's had some 13k buffed HP during Luclin. That was no joke. I don't want to get too off topic from the OP's original thread about DPS gear on the SK, but as long as they can place significant/equal mobs to make these classes really be able to use their "mage tank" abilities...  Then I am still excited about playing one. I just think that, like in many other games, the conversation of making the "dark tank class" some sort of not so great DPS focus is not worth it. However, having enough DPS to put a hurt on casters who suffer greatly from spike damage as well as they deal spike damage... That's sexy flavor.

    • 705 posts
    September 10, 2018 8:07 PM PDT

    Gyldervane said:

    While they may have higher dps than a Paladin or Warrior, I would hope that the Dire Lord's dps would never be as strong as that of a Ranger, Rogue, or Monk, as it would take a lot away from those classes if the DL could dps as well as them and also tank. I do think that the DL sounds like it would be a great offtank, though, for groups that already have a main tank. Their self-healing might mean less work for the healer, particularly if they tank the magic mobs and leave the melees to the main tank.

    I doubt the DL will have higher DPS than a warrior (warriors can dual wield and use 2h too), but the DL will definitely have less mitigation.  The DL may be able to do more DPS than a warrior if they are receiving a warrior's haste buffs as well as the melee DPS and crit banner buff.  But in that group even the Paladin may be able to out DPS the DL with 2h if played well by forcing stun/crit combos.    I feel that the DL role (with the current set up) is Off-tank/support.  The only thing that would change my opinion is if they made DL only weapons that had better ratios than weapons that the warrior and Pal could use.  I think they should just make the DL a DPS/Off-tank like the monk.  That would clear up a lot of contraversy.

    Add: A tank's role is to hold threat while mitigating damage.  Unless there will be casters Quad casting so much that a healer can't keep up a paladin or warrior, why bring the "tank" that can't take the physical quad attacks that will likely be coming in much faster than spell damage?  I've said before, that if they build more than one encounter where warriors and paladins get 1-shot by a spell specifically designed to only allow a DL to survive, then that is a broken mechanic and people will likely just avoid that encounter until it is changed or until the game has been out long enough for some DL's to get enough pitty groups to get them geared.


    This post was edited by Darch at September 10, 2018 8:21 PM PDT
    • 7 posts
    September 11, 2018 8:27 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    Gyldervane said:

    While they may have higher dps than a Paladin or Warrior, I would hope that the Dire Lord's dps would never be as strong as that of a Ranger, Rogue, or Monk, as it would take a lot away from those classes if the DL could dps as well as them and also tank. I do think that the DL sounds like it would be a great offtank, though, for groups that already have a main tank. Their self-healing might mean less work for the healer, particularly if they tank the magic mobs and leave the melees to the main tank.

    I doubt the DL will have higher DPS than a warrior (warriors can dual wield and use 2h too), but the DL will definitely have less mitigation.  The DL may be able to do more DPS than a warrior if they are receiving a warrior's haste buffs as well as the melee DPS and crit banner buff.  But in that group even the Paladin may be able to out DPS the DL with 2h if played well by forcing stun/crit combos.    I feel that the DL role (with the current set up) is Off-tank/support.  The only thing that would change my opinion is if they made DL only weapons that had better ratios than weapons that the warrior and Pal could use.  I think they should just make the DL a DPS/Off-tank like the monk.  That would clear up a lot of contraversy.

    Add: A tank's role is to hold threat while mitigating damage.  Unless there will be casters Quad casting so much that a healer can't keep up a paladin or warrior, why bring the "tank" that can't take the physical quad attacks that will likely be coming in much faster than spell damage?  I've said before, that if they build more than one encounter where warriors and paladins get 1-shot by a spell specifically designed to only allow a DL to survive, then that is a broken mechanic and people will likely just avoid that encounter until it is changed or until the game has been out long enough for some DL's to get enough pitty groups to get them geared.

     

    Well....DL's can use 2H and dual wield aswell....but, i do agree with you to some degree that perhaps they will be niche for raid tanking (only magic bosses) but i do believe that for 6man groups any tank will do. It wouldve maybe been a good idea to do as you say and make them a DPS/off-tank like the monk, only being main tanks for magic raid bosses, and on the same level for offtanking in normal 6man groups as monks....leaving the 2 main tanks for everything the paladin and warrior. I guess we will wait and see :)

    • 2484 posts
    September 11, 2018 11:21 AM PDT

    They will be fully capable main tanks and their DPS will not come close to that of DPS classes. 

    • 705 posts
    September 11, 2018 6:30 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    They will be fully capable main tanks and their DPS will not come close to that of DPS classes. 

    Only time will tell - Although you usually have sound reasoning behind your posts I "personally" feel like this comment is based on emotion due to our passion for the game instead of logic based off of what even the devs have mentioned.  Receiving spike damage ("being harder to heal than the other tanks") is not a characteristic that makes a "fully capable main tank".  And we don't know if their DPS will not come close to the DPS classes... if it doesn't, why bother inviting a DL at all since they can't are purposely being designed to take more damage than the other tanks?  If your reasoning for the statement is becuase you are optomistic of changes to come in the future then I can understand that, but in it's current state, the DL is not a "fully capable main tank".

    • 23 posts
    September 11, 2018 9:34 PM PDT

    I think it is worth noting that under the classes section the monk is actually stated to have off-tanking listed as a group role and the dire lord does not, this would indicate that the dire lord is not being designed as a off-tank.

    • 491 posts
    September 12, 2018 6:21 AM PDT

    Darch said: Receiving spike damage ("being harder to heal than the other tanks") is not a characteristic that makes a "fully capable main tank".

    I think that some of you are making an assumption that less mitigation automatically means harder to heal. This doesn't have to be true.

    Since Dire Lords have this 'Lifesteal' type mechanic, where they heal themselves as they fight, this could potentially make them just as easy from a healers viewpoint to keep alive.

    As long as the Dire Lord is self healing for the same amount of damage he takes more than the other tanks over time, then healing them shouldn't be much difference.

    The only time the difference really matters is when the enemy uses abilities that do massive amounts of damage all at once that could potentially kill the tank all at once. And it's just as likely that this kind of massive damage will be magical based as it is to be physically based. There are also going to be other mechanics in place for all tanks that can deal with this kind of big hit moments.

    They have also specifically said that we don't have full ability lists because many abilities are going to be 'found' while you explore and they don't want to ruin the surprise for what those abilities may be.

    You guys should also take a listen to this part from the MMORPG interview MMORPG Interviews Joppa and Aradune - Timestamp is where they ask them about the Dire Lord being a desirable tanking class. Chris "Joppa" actually goes into some detail about how tanking in raids may actually look like.

    • 103 posts
    September 19, 2018 4:06 PM PDT

    When folks realize that self healing damage after it is taken is not the same as mitigating that damage in the first place they will see how DL is going to be lacking as a tank in end game content. A DL will not be able to self heal if they are one-shotted by a mob that didn't one-shot a Warrior (or Paladin) due to their higher mitigation.

    It will be up to DBG to design end game content in such a way that self-reliant offtanks are needed. The DL is setting up to be one of the more underpowered classes at the end game where specialization is key.

    • 1660 posts
    September 19, 2018 4:53 PM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    When folks realize that self healing damage after it is taken is not the same as mitigating that damage in the first place they will see how DL is going to be lacking as a tank in end game content. A DL will not be able to self heal if they are one-shotted by a mob that didn't one-shot a Warrior (or Paladin) due to their higher mitigation.

    It will be up to DBG to design end game content in such a way that self-reliant offtanks are needed. The DL is setting up to be one of the more underpowered classes at the end game where specialization is key.

    I get your point, and how it's mostly the case in the few MMO's that tried to make self sustain tanks comparable to mitigation. However, this is completely related to how will PVE be designed ?

     

    All we know for now, is "Tank and spank" with damage increasing faster than mitigation/ health because healer's output will increase as much and need to be valorized too. Leading to entry bosses doing average hits, and late bosses going to wreck your tank in two unavoided hits.

     

    What, if it's not the case ? I don't have a speculation here, but EQ's design didn't value mitigation due to it's RNG and the variable ATK of ennemies (Vulak aerr hitting for max damage on every hit), that made Defensive and HP stacks the only solution to Bosses attacks, since Defensive was Raw mitigation with no RNG, and health wasn't affected by the boss attack.

     

    What if this model is kept, but withouth defensive ? What will make the warrior superior to a direlord if his bonus AC is limited in efficiency due to mitigation beeing RNG (IE : the more AC you get the more odds you have to be hit for fewer damage, but the max damage hit still exists and cannot be removed from the attack table) ? What if both have the same HP, and the difference in AC is not reliable enough to make the warrior an obvious choice, and self heals can offset the little bonuses AC offers ?

    Even in a vulak aerr scenario (AC not working at all, full melee swing all the time), the Direlord has nothing to pale in comparison to the warrior as long as they have the same HP pool.

     

    The whole concept of warrior predominance in EQ was based on the defensive discipline, and the whole idea of armor beeing king in MMOs is based on Wow's flat damage reductio.

    In pantheon : None of them will be on the train, so why beeing all gloomy about speculations of such sort ?

    • 398 posts
    September 20, 2018 9:11 AM PDT

    All the Dire Lord naysayering is based on 1% information and 99% assumption. Until proven otherwise I'm going to assume that Joppa has the ability to adjust the 99% such that each tank is valuable.

    You CAN make a magic based tank with self healing competitive for group tier content. Only a lack of imagination can lead you to believe otherwise.

    You only need to balance the tanks for group content, not raids. You don't need to have Warrior=Paladin=Dire Lord for any given raid encounter, just that each one has their chance to shine.

    In raids all you have to do is make encounters untankable by the other two tank classes. Take 1/3 of the raid encounters and introduce enough magic damage such that warriors and paladins literally cannot handle it. Take another 1/3 and introduce mechanics that play to the Paladin's strengths and make it untankable by the Dire Lord and Warrior. Then leave the last 1/3rd to the Warrior. Done.

    I'm sure Joppa is aiming for a little more nuance than that, but even that simple formula would be enough.

    • 1660 posts
    September 20, 2018 10:20 AM PDT

    Ainadak said:

    All the Dire Lord naysayering is based on 1% information and 99% assumption. Until proven otherwise I'm going to assume that Joppa has the ability to adjust the 99% such that each tank is valuable.

    You CAN make a magic based tank with self healing competitive for group tier content. Only a lack of imagination can lead you to believe otherwise.

    You only need to balance the tanks for group content, not raids. You don't need to have Warrior=Paladin=Dire Lord for any given raid encounter, just that each one has their chance to shine.

    In raids all you have to do is make encounters untankable by the other two tank classes. Take 1/3 of the raid encounters and introduce enough magic damage such that warriors and paladins literally cannot handle it. Take another 1/3 and introduce mechanics that play to the Paladin's strengths and make it untankable by the Dire Lord and Warrior. Then leave the last 1/3rd to the Warrior. Done.

    I'm sure Joppa is aiming for a little more nuance than that, but even that simple formula would be enough.

     

    I apologize to have been Nscheffled again. I forgot this guy only comes once or twice a month to repeat the same assumption based arguments and retreat before having to give forther datas.

    • 2484 posts
    September 20, 2018 11:48 AM PDT

    Darch said:

    Only time will tell - Although you usually have sound reasoning behind your posts I "personally" feel like this comment is based on emotion due to our passion for the game instead of logic based off of what even the devs have mentioned.  Receiving spike damage ("being harder to heal than the other tanks") is not a characteristic that makes a "fully capable main tank".  And we don't know if their DPS will not come close to the DPS classes... if it doesn't, why bother inviting a DL at all since they can't are purposely being designed to take more damage than the other tanks?  If your reasoning for the statement is becuase you are optomistic of changes to come in the future then I can understand that, but in it's current state, the DL is not a "fully capable main tank".

    It is mostly due to Joppa's constant reassurance that Dire Lord will be fully effective main tanks at all levels of content.

     

    "What makes a Dire Lord a desirable tanking class?

    The Dire Lord is not intended to be a broken tank. They're intended to be a tank as effectively as a main tank at all levels of content. But they're designed to do that in a very unique way, which I think is a lot of fun and really refreshing. The other thing that I'm honestly surprised I haven’t seen more people pick up on is the focus that the Dire Lord has on countering magical enemies. The class reveals are not meant to be exhaustive - many abilities are not listed because they are abilities that are found and discovered in the world, and we're not going to spoil those. But what you can start picking up on with the Dire Lord is a magic based defense that they have that is really powerful. We want to design our different encounters to be more thoughtful and engaging. The fact that Dire Lords are so effective against magic-based enemies is a really big deal, and I want to call attention to that. We’ve got some new things that we're going to be trying to do with encounters that go beyond the traditional main tank and off-tanking strategy. Don't be surprised to see situations where you need two main tanks simultaneously. You may be fighting an enemy that is dealing physical and magical damage at the same time in different ways. We're trying to think out of the box. When we say all of these tanks are going to be viable, it may not necessarily mean that every tank is going to be just as good at physical mitigation as the other. But there are absolutely going to be encounters where you’ll want a main tank that is good against magic or a main tank that is good against undead. It’s really important that we break away from traditional MMO bosses that all feel mostly the same, just with varying HP and damage."

     

    Their damage not coming close to DPS is because VR has said at least a few times now that classes will not be able to fulfill multiple roles; they will have a primary role and anything beyond that they might be able to dabble a bit but will never near the capability of a primary class for whatever role. I imagine DL will have some high burst damage and brief windows of high sustained DPS but they will be limited and over the course of a fight they won't be near equal in total damage done to a DPS. 

    • 103 posts
    September 24, 2018 4:33 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I get your point, and how it's mostly the case in the few MMO's that tried to make self sustain tanks comparable to mitigation. However, this is completely related to how will PVE be designed ?

     

    All we know for now, is "Tank and spank" with damage increasing faster than mitigation/ health because healer's output will increase as much and need to be valorized too. Leading to entry bosses doing average hits, and late bosses going to wreck your tank in two unavoided hits.

     

    What, if it's not the case ? I don't have a speculation here, but EQ's design didn't value mitigation due to it's RNG and the variable ATK of ennemies (Vulak aerr hitting for max damage on every hit), that made Defensive and HP stacks the only solution to Bosses attacks, since Defensive was Raw mitigation with no RNG, and health wasn't affected by the boss attack.

     

    What if this model is kept, but withouth defensive ? What will make the warrior superior to a direlord if his bonus AC is limited in efficiency due to mitigation beeing RNG (IE : the more AC you get the more odds you have to be hit for fewer damage, but the max damage hit still exists and cannot be removed from the attack table) ? What if both have the same HP, and the difference in AC is not reliable enough to make the warrior an obvious choice, and self heals can offset the little bonuses AC offers ?

    Even in a vulak aerr scenario (AC not working at all, full melee swing all the time), the Direlord has nothing to pale in comparison to the warrior as long as they have the same HP pool.

     

    The whole concept of warrior predominance in EQ was based on the defensive discipline, and the whole idea of armor beeing king in MMOs is based on Wow's flat damage reductio.

    In pantheon : None of them will be on the train, so why beeing all gloomy about speculations of such sort ?

    Right..Warrior defensive...their mitigation advantage...that they get full time in PoA...no big deal I guess...

    Raid mobs will one-shot non-MTs because if there aren't mobs that one-shot every class but Warriors, there will be no need for Warriors. That's the entire point of the class. There is literally no other reason for the Warrior class to exist other than to MT mobs that can one-shot other classes.

    It would be a bit like when a Paladin named Dunric on Povar was MTing Luclin raid content because he had enough HP to survive being one-shotted. His agro generation was far superior to a Warrior, and he generated so much agro with stuns that the raid force could go full burn mode. The Clerics were using a CH chain anyways, so nobody cared about the Paladin taking more damage...the only thing that mattered was he wasn't getting one-shotted.

    So who is going to be marginalized at end game? The Warrior with extra mitigation that isn't needed? Or the DL who doesn't have enough mitigation to tank end game content? 

    I get it...you're an PoA/DL fanboi, and you can't even entertain the thought of them making a class that isn't viable at end game. However, as someone who has played end game MTs in several MMOs, I can assure you it's quite possible...and actually fairly likely.

    • 2484 posts
    September 24, 2018 7:44 PM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    Raid mobs will one-shot non-MTs because if there aren't mobs that one-shot every class but Warriors, there will be no need for Warriors. That's the entire point of the class. There is literally no other reason for the Warrior class to exist other than to MT mobs that can one-shot other classes.

    It would be a bit like when a Paladin named Dunric on Povar was MTing Luclin raid content because he had enough HP to survive being one-shotted. His agro generation was far superior to a Warrior, and he generated so much agro with stuns that the raid force could go full burn mode. The Clerics were using a CH chain anyways, so nobody cared about the Paladin taking more damage...the only thing that mattered was he wasn't getting one-shotted.

    So who is going to be marginalized at end game? The Warrior with extra mitigation that isn't needed? Or the DL who doesn't have enough mitigation to tank end game content? 

    I get it...you're an PoA/DL fanboi, and you can't even entertain the thought of them making a class that isn't viable at end game. However, as someone who has played end game MTs in several MMOs, I can assure you it's quite possible...and actually fairly likely.

    Is this for real?

     

    "Raid mobs will one-shot non-MTs because if there aren't mobs that one-shot every class but Warriors, there will be no need for Warriors. That's the entire point of the class. There is literally no other reason for the Warrior class to exist other than to MT mobs that can one-shot other classes."

     

    I wasn't aware bosses had to one shot players to make tanks important.

    • 1660 posts
    September 25, 2018 7:06 AM PDT

    Nscheffel this isn't eq1. Get back in your closet.

    • 79 posts
    November 12, 2018 10:17 AM PST

    I have been gaming for quite some time now, since before EQ and to be quite honest I prefer classes that can fill dual roles and do so effectively.  Now I am not saying Tank and DPS at the same time. What I am saying is the option to switch between the two roles within the same class appeals more to me than a class that just does one thing.  

     

    In all seriousness, the Dire Lord could actually have three specializations. It could have a Tank specialization, a DPS specialization, and a Healer specialization. For the most part, all the abilities released thus far could perform differently depending on which specialization was active. Even Blood State (stances) could be slightly altered based on which specialization was active.  i.e.

     

    Blood States

    You change the property of your blood to suit your needs:

     

    Nightmare Blood

    Tank: The damage you deal afflicts your enemy with palpable horror, converting X% of your damage into bonus Hate.

    DPS: The damage you deal afflicts your enemy with palpable horror, converting X% of your damage into bonus damage.

    Healer: The damage you deal afflicts your enemy with palpable horror, converting X% of your damage into bonus healing.

     

    Torrential Veins

    Tank: You cause your blood to flow faster, increasing your health regeneration rate and causing your Essence Vial to fill X% faster.

    DPS: You cause your blood to flow faster, increasing your haste and causing your Essence Vial to fill X% faster.

    Healer: You cause your blood to flow faster, increasing your ability regeneration rate and causing your Essence Vial to fill X% faster

     

    Essence Leech

    Tank: Your blood swells with the essence of your enemies, increasing your critical strike chance. Your critical hits draw out the essence of your enemy, healing you for X% of the damage dealt.

    DPS: Your blood swells with the essence of your enemies, increasing your critical strike chance. Your critical hits draw out the essence of your enemy, damaging all enemy in an area for X% of the damage dealt.

    Healer: Your blood swells with the essence of your enemies, increasing your critical strike chance. Your critical hits draw out the essence of your enemy, healing your defensive target for X% of the healing dealt and damaging your offensive target for the same amount.

     

    More or less a very simplistic example, but from what I see thus far this could be done for almost all the DL's abilities.  Then later on when AA's or something similar gets introduced then you would start to see more specialization specific abilities appear. 

    Of course, these are specializations and not stances and you would not be able to swap in combat.  

     

    Now I am a person that prefers to have the option to switch roles on the same character. Sometimes I like to tank, sometimes I just want to dps. Sometimes the group needs me to switch from one role to the other.  I am not a huge fan of playing my Alt as a Main for any given encounter, I rather progress my true main character, than have to switch to a different alt character just to fill the role needs of the group I am in. 

    All that said, this will probably never happen in this game so I will digress. That said I wouldn't mind if the DL could somehow dual role at least Tank and DPS in some way shape or form and remain competitive in both.

    Now I am not saying have the cake and eat it too. What I am saying is that if I make a cognitive choice to DPS, I do so with the understanding I am going to lose my survivability.  However, in doing so, making the choice to go full on dps, I remain competitive in the DPS rankings.

    Please don't confuse this with stance dancing in and out of tank/dps forms. I am not trying to convey this. I am not talking about Going into a fight in DPS stance, then switching to Tank stance to turtle until enough health is regenerated. 

    This is why I think specializations are more balanced than stances when it comes to role swapping. 

     

    I personally dislike the popular mentality of so-called off-tanks should never be competitive with pure DPS classes. Off-Tank should not translate to second-rate tank or second-rate dps. Off-Tank should only mean that the class has the ability to transition faster from a defensive role to an offensive role and vice versa.  And the only reason why they are not on top the DPS meter is that they switched from focusing on dmg output to focusing on mob control and self-survivability. 

    I know all this will just lead down one rabbit hole or another, as everyone one has their own opinion on what should and should not be. 

     

    I'd like to actually see three distinct specializations with the DL. I would settle for the ability to Dual Role in some way shape or form that did not make the class second rate in either role. 

    • 35 posts
    November 13, 2018 2:00 PM PST

    This is all that needs to be said:

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

     

    three little letters missing there, anyone wanna guess which ones they are LOL

    • 35 posts
    November 13, 2018 2:13 PM PST

    Darch said:

    Iksar said:

    They will be fully capable main tanks and their DPS will not come close to that of DPS classes. 

    Only time will tell - Although you usually have sound reasoning behind your posts I "personally" feel like this comment is based on emotion due to our passion for the game instead of logic based off of what even the devs have mentioned.  Receiving spike damage ("being harder to heal than the other tanks") is not a characteristic that makes a "fully capable main tank".  And we don't know if their DPS will not come close to the DPS classes... if it doesn't, why bother inviting a DL at all since they can't are purposely being designed to take more damage than the other tanks?  If your reasoning for the statement is becuase you are optomistic of changes to come in the future then I can understand that, but in it's current state, the DL is not a "fully capable main tank".

     

    Class descriotion:

    Group Role: Tank, Utility

     

    NOT "Semi Capaable Tank" or "Tankish with near DPS class DPS Tank-lite" or "Magic Based Tank only" or "Might as well invite a Pal or War Tank"

     

    I feel your thinking is based on faulty logic that a "fully capable tank" MUST wear plate or something.

     

    Having played FF11 where there were two tanks-a Paladin that wore plate and a Ninja that didn't, I can say that from experience there are clearly ways to make both work.

     

    Paladins mitigated damage and Ninjas avoided it and having healed both it was easier to work with Ninjas avoiding it than having to constantly heal Paladins but I was fine with both as long as they knew how to play their class.

     

    In Pantheon it looks like something similar and player skill will be the deciding factor, not class.  Plenty of stuff in the DL skills has me (I plan on playing a Druid) not worried at all about healing them and actually thinking I will pair up nicely with them with the Druids regen specific abilities.


    And yes, time will tell but using logic that a tank class that is described as such and with everything they've said about all tanks being able to tank all content isn't emotion, it is trusting the devs of this game to do the job they've said they're going to do, which I assume is why we're all here.......


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at November 13, 2018 2:15 PM PST
    • 491 posts
    November 14, 2018 11:35 AM PST

    Xaices said: Now I am not saying Tank and DPS at the same time. What I am saying is the option to switch between the two roles within the same class appeals more to me than a class that just does one thing. In all seriousness, the Dire Lord could actually have three specializations. It could have a Tank specialization, a DPS specialization, and a Healer specialization.

    While I can understand your opinions on this matter, and it's perfectly fine if this kind of 'Spec' system appeals to you more, I just wanted to point out that Pantheon is not going to have this. Many MMO's do have multi-specializations in their classes and these games can work fine and be very enjoyable to play. But Pantheon is not going that route.

    From what we have been told so far; In Pantheon, each class will have a specific Role and there will be no way to switch to a different Role within a class. There is no system to allow you to change your 'spec' that changes how your Class is played.

    The options you DO have will simply be choosing which items to equip and which abilities to equip. In fact, abilities may seem a little bit like items in a way, since you may have to go adventure and/or quest to gain access to some of your classes abilities. But there should not be any limits on choice of abilities you can obtain. For example, you should never find a situation where you need to choose 'Ability A' or 'Abilitiy B' and your choice means you can never obtain the other Ability. This does not prevent the possibility that you might have to choose which one you obtain first, but you should always have the option to earn the other ability too.