Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Three Words.. East Commons Tunnel

    • 3852 posts
    August 8, 2018 7:35 AM PDT

    Few things are *less* appealing for most of us than needing a bazaar system to sell or buy things. Keep in mind that it works best if you have something very valuable to sell or buy.

    Two hours in the trading tunnel of doom is more tolerable if you are getting or selling the highly valuable Pink Panties of Power for a lot of game money.

    If you are a level 4 trying to sell 5 chunks of copper ore so that you can buy a pathetically bad sword (but better than the one you started with) from a NPC the last thing you want is to spend hours spamming and competing with the spam for the Pink Panties.

    A global trade channel coupled with a mail COD feature is a lot better for most transactions. A global auction house is a lot better for most transactions. Regional auction houses are a lot better for most transactions. Market boards in your house or apartment are a lot better for most transactions. 

    There are ways to discourage or outright prevent mass-marketing tools from being used for the really valuable items if VR wants to encourage the trading tunnel of doom. Maximum prices. High fees. Fees that are a higher percentage at higher price levels. 

    Pantheon can survive and prosper without the trading tunnel of doom though if enough people want it they can create it. Pantheon *needs* a more convenient system for tading, however, even if limited to the less expensive and more commodity items. Having only, or primarily, a bazaar system would be ...bizarre.


    This post was edited by dorotea at August 8, 2018 7:36 AM PDT
    • 646 posts
    August 8, 2018 9:36 AM PDT

    The last thing I want to have to do with my limited playtime is have to sit around spamming chat or just afking hoping that someone will buy something from me. That is the opposite of fun.

    All we need is player-to-player trade and a server-wide auction house.


    This post was edited by Naunet at August 8, 2018 9:36 AM PDT
    • 432 posts
    August 16, 2018 7:56 AM PDT

    It was not only a joy but a heaven for every crafter .

    I think that there was not one time when I would log in and not to visit EC . A short list of activities available, all of them very enjoyable to me .

    - taking orders . A good third of calls were for crafters . "Buying a full set of banded " , "Needing a platinum blue diamond tiara " , "Looking for Wu chest and gloves ." "35 mage pet spell requested ." . I would then take these orders and happily craft away . Making money in the process too .

    - RPing . Often I would offer discounts for Gnomes . Or ask a Dark Elf buyer if he was evil . Some of my best RPing memories come from EC and I made many friends by just starting RP with them during a commercial transaction .

    - Helping newbies . Buffing, giving out low level equipment , killing this pesky Griffon or the Orc Chief .

    - NPC merchants mining . There were so many people selling stuff in the many Inns that sometimes there could be found unexpected treasures .

    - Killing bears for HQ skins and selling bags . Killing spiders and spiderlings for silk and crafting newbie silk armor or leather padding for fine steel armor .

    - Socializing and finding groups . People knew that when doing a /who , a person in EC was generally free and available . When I was in EC even with LFG off I was sure that I would get many tells for groups while doing something useful and not just sitting bored somewhere with LFG on .

    - Obviously selling or for me more often buying  . Sometimes there appeared real bargains so that even if I didn't need the thing I bought it to resell later .

    - Learning the value and the market . Nobody could have ripped me off with a trade because I knew quite well what the market prices were for most things .

     

    Compared with the many diversified activities that I could do in EC, I would have died of boredom if I had to sit somewhere , hit the same keys and kill the same mobs over and over for more than 2 hours . Norrathian Gods bless EC and make it so that there will be a place where I shall be able to have so much pleasure on Pantheon too .

    • 1921 posts
    August 16, 2018 8:36 AM PDT

    As a seller, it was great to be able to take advantage of the ignorance of buyers.  Loved it as a seller.

    As a buyer, it was horrific trying to obtain anything, and always being taken advantage of.  Hated it as a buyer.

    It doesn't matter what system VR puts in place, http://tlpauctions.com/ (or someone similar) will be there, and I couldn't be happier.  The days of taking advantage of other players are gone, and I'm glad their gone.  Being unable to search (both currently and historically) for prices in a game where prices really matter, is absurd.
    Even Project Gorgon lets you search for availability of items, now, and they went (originally) full hardcore player-run-bazaar mode.  When I want to buy something there, it's tedious, but not as tedious as EC tunnel, thank Brell.

    It's ridiculous to expect that players are going to suffer in ignorance, in 2020.  I don't want that as a buyer, and while I may temporarily want it as a selfish & greedy seller, I recognize it's not healthy for the longevity of the game.  PFO, Shroud, and P:G have all demonstrated keeping buyers ignorant does not make for happy paying RL customers.  Public competition drives prices down.  Ignorance drives prices up and allows for collusion, price fixing and arbitrage.  I'll take competition any day, given the other options.

    • 1860 posts
    August 16, 2018 8:39 AM PDT

    There will be localized AH's.

    • 2886 posts
    August 16, 2018 9:45 AM PDT

    philo said:

    There will be localized AH's.

    I'm actually not sure that's 100% confirmed yet. It was definitely an idea that Brad, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's guaranteed. That's something they'll have to experiment with in testing to see what works best. I personally doubt they'll make a final decision on it until at least Alpha.

    To be clear, I'm not saying it's a bad idea. I actually kind of like it. I just don't want bias to get in the way. I don't think it's safe to say they "will be" yet.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at August 16, 2018 9:51 AM PDT
    • 4 posts
    August 16, 2018 10:47 AM PDT

    Make everything available from whatever AH is being used but charge for delivery if the item was in a different locale. Make the delivery charge vary based on the distance between where the auction was initiated and the buyer was located.  Would make sense that you could have items "shipped" to your location but at a cost. Add realism and a small money sink without being a huge inconvenience.

    • 198 posts
    August 16, 2018 11:09 AM PDT

    I remember ECT fondly. :)  It was a social hub.  I don't know that it was ever designed with that in mind, but that's what it became.  I joined my guild in that zone and put in 4 more years of EQ with them.  Good times.

    • 75 posts
    August 17, 2018 7:12 PM PDT

    I also loved ECT and making friends, wheeling and dealing with people, learning who the top crafters and such were and all the social things removed from MMOs with craptastic auction houses. I hope there will be no auction houses, but if they do put them in, I hope you can't sell anything but raw materials there. So if you want to buy some snake skins to up your leatherworking or make some armor, cool. Someone else who was skinning them and put them on the auction house gets what they want and you get what you want. What I don't want to see is no reason to ever chat with people outside your group or guild because everything is all automated.

    • 85 posts
    August 17, 2018 8:49 PM PDT
    Just to chime in: I like the local AH idea. It adds a bit of "player knowledge benefits."

    People who can't be bothered to care can just do all their business at whatever town they are in. But the player who knows the market can make a profit by "trucking" goods. Remember economics 101, people buy sell and truck goods.

    However I can see a flaw with this idea. Classes with travel abilities, like a wizard or druid, suddenly have an economic benefit... But then again, they always did.

    Can I get a port, will tip...
    • 1860 posts
    August 17, 2018 9:08 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    philo said:

    There will be localized AH's.

    I'm actually not sure that's 100% confirmed yet. It was definitely an idea that Brad

     I'm pretty sure you are referencing the localized part and not the AH part right Baz?  We had it confirmed that AHs were in game. 

    Brad talked about leaning towards localizing them but that part is not set yet. (possibly localized by continent...or other, smaller area etc is unknown).

    The main point was that AHs are confirmed (don't get hung up on the localized part...though there has been mention of that possibility in the past).


    This post was edited by philo at August 17, 2018 9:14 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    August 17, 2018 11:20 PM PDT

    Last I heard the direction they were heading was players being able to place merchant NPCs, not an exact AH. Would certainly fall in line with the massive amount of merchant stalls we saw being put in Thronefast in the Making a City stream.

    • 1714 posts
    August 18, 2018 12:42 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Last I heard the direction they were heading was players being able to place merchant NPCs, not an exact AH. Would certainly fall in line with the massive amount of merchant stalls we saw being put in Thronefast in the Making a City stream.

    Please quote a source that says that. They have spoken about regional AH many times. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at August 18, 2018 12:42 AM PDT
    • 1921 posts
    August 18, 2018 7:22 AM PDT

    Be careful what you wish for.

    This?  Not fun.  Not challenging.  Not innovative.  Not how you want to attempt to distinguish your game.  Only reason it workd in EQ1 was because of the global search.

    Ultimately, having player run vendor stalls without a global search is simply tedious.  It's also why P:G added a global search.  No-one is going to spend hours checking prices stall to stall when they know they're still going to get ripped off. 
    At least a global search ensures you have less of a chance of getting ripped off.

    • 3852 posts
    August 18, 2018 7:51 AM PDT

    Merchant NPCs or boards or stalls - what a pain in the butt that was in DAOC when they used that system. 

    Listing items to sell - would you need a house to place the merchant? If public areas were used would they have a limited capacity to place merchants and only the first 10 players could sell in that area? Would you have the center of Butt Cheeks Village impassable and unsightly because all you could see would be 10,000 merchant stalls? Would there be a regional listing to go to for checking prices? I assume not a global listing.

    Buying items - would you need to buy by physically going to the stall? If not, what is the point of having stalls in the first place? If yes, how would you know where the stall was if it wasn't in a house with an address? Go to the guild headquarters, turn right and the copper ore you want is at the 512th merchant stall?

    • 3237 posts
    August 18, 2018 8:28 AM PDT

    It has been confirmed that we'll be testing both local auction houses and trading areas.  Here is a quote from Kilsin:

    "Folks, we have said that we will be testing both systems, with locational AHs and trading areas, so there will be something for everyone, I am going to go ahead and close this down as like the last AH thread, this one is also just spiralling into arguments over opinions and that is not what these development forums are for, we look forward to seeing you all in testing to help us find the best solution for this system, until then, please do not create any more Auction House threads."

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6118/am-i-the-only-one-disappointed-by-the-auction-house-news/view/page/11


    This post was edited by oneADseven at August 18, 2018 8:31 AM PDT
    • 643 posts
    August 18, 2018 11:18 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Few things are *less* appealing for most of us than needing a bazaar system to sell or buy things. Keep in mind that it works best if you have something very valuable to sell or buy.

    Two hours in the trading tunnel of doom is more tolerable if you are getting or selling the highly valuable Pink Panties of Power for a lot of game money.

    If you are a level 4 trying to sell 5 chunks of copper ore so that you can buy a pathetically bad sword (but better than the one you started with) from a NPC the last thing you want is to spend hours spamming and competing with the spam for the Pink Panties.

    A global trade channel coupled with a mail COD feature is a lot better for most transactions. A global auction house is a lot better for most transactions. Regional auction houses are a lot better for most transactions. Market boards in your house or apartment are a lot better for most transactions. 

    There are ways to discourage or outright prevent mass-marketing tools from being used for the really valuable items if VR wants to encourage the trading tunnel of doom. Maximum prices. High fees. Fees that are a higher percentage at higher price levels. 

    Pantheon can survive and prosper without the trading tunnel of doom though if enough people want it they can create it. Pantheon *needs* a more convenient system for tading, however, even if limited to the less expensive and more commodity items. Having only, or primarily, a bazaar system would be ...bizarre.

     

    Could not disagree more.

    A mail/parcel system will be another convenience feature that will ruin the game.  If players want to exchange items they need to talk, socialize, negotiate, communicate, travel, meet and exchagne items in person.

     

    Mailing something and insta clicky payments just replaces a virtual work experience with a console video game experience.

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • 2756 posts
    August 18, 2018 2:24 PM PDT

    fazool said:

    dorotea said:

    Few things are *less* appealing for most of us than needing a bazaar system to sell or buy things. Keep in mind that it works best if you have something very valuable to sell or buy.

    Two hours in the trading tunnel of doom is more tolerable if you are getting or selling the highly valuable Pink Panties of Power for a lot of game money.

    If you are a level 4 trying to sell 5 chunks of copper ore so that you can buy a pathetically bad sword (but better than the one you started with) from a NPC the last thing you want is to spend hours spamming and competing with the spam for the Pink Panties.

    A global trade channel coupled with a mail COD feature is a lot better for most transactions. A global auction house is a lot better for most transactions. Regional auction houses are a lot better for most transactions. Market boards in your house or apartment are a lot better for most transactions. 

    There are ways to discourage or outright prevent mass-marketing tools from being used for the really valuable items if VR wants to encourage the trading tunnel of doom. Maximum prices. High fees. Fees that are a higher percentage at higher price levels. 

    Pantheon can survive and prosper without the trading tunnel of doom though if enough people want it they can create it. Pantheon *needs* a more convenient system for tading, however, even if limited to the less expensive and more commodity items. Having only, or primarily, a bazaar system would be ...bizarre.

    Could not disagree more.

    A mail/parcel system will be another convenience feature that will ruin the game.  If players want to exchange items they need to talk, socialize, negotiate, communicate, travel, meet and exchagne items in person. 

    Mailing something and insta clicky payments just replaces a virtual work experience with a console video game experience.

    Once again this will be a horses for courses thing.  What I would like to see is the heavily taxed/charged option to have goods delivered and for it definitely not to be instant, but to *require* someone to cross a continent to personally make a coin/goods exchange is not 'better'.  The alternative will not *ruin* the game...

    Pantheon doesn't *need* an convenient auto-trading option, but it would be good, for those that have no interest whatsoever in trading to be able to do what real (even medieval) people would have done and hire someone to do it for them.  And, no, that shouldn't *have* to be another player.  Players are adventurers not brokers and mailmen.

    The first thing an NPC auction house would sensibly do is deliver the goods for a fee.  In a dangerous world that might well be a big fee, but some would *much* rather pay it.

    You like to spend hours pouring through trade chat and travelling to and from banks and crafting halls?  Good for you!  It will not end the game will to provide an alternative.


    This post was edited by disposalist at August 20, 2018 7:59 AM PDT
    • 134 posts
    August 20, 2018 5:34 AM PDT

    In Lineage 2 we would just se up shop in the town of Giran, it was the largest town and the main square would be flooded with people setting up shop to buy or sell items. Once you left the area of the town itself you wouldn't be supject to all the spam and ooc chat (I'm pretty sure its been 14 years haha). I love the idea of being able to set up your own shop and having a player run economy for sure. If you needed a particular item you could just set up a shop and set an amount you are willing to pay for it and if someone has it they can come across you and sell it to you. I love this system, not sure if they do it this way in other games, but its very simple and user friendly.

    • 2138 posts
    August 20, 2018 6:56 AM PDT

    Kurgon999 said: ....But the player who knows the market can make a profit by "trucking" goods. Remember economics 101, people buy sell and truck goods. However I can see a flaw with this idea. Classes with travel abilities, like a wizard or druid, suddenly have an economic benefit... 

    Considering the "silk road" idea. I wonder how hard it would be from a Developer perspective to have a mechanic in place where all tradeskill labeled items are quietly/secretly "flagged" whenever they move from one zone to another- or rather- flagged in a players inventory. So only items in a players inventory will be flagged if the player, with those items in personal inventory, moves into another zone.

    The sell cost to NPC's in the other town would then increase based on the number of  zone flags on the TS item. The control would be limiting the flags on the item to certain zones to avoid someone carrying around snake skins forever then finally selling them to an NPC elsewhere. This would avoid the porters profit issue as their items would to have been flagged accorgdingly from having traversed the zones. It would not count going into dungeons, but items in dungeons coming out would be so flagged- with a volume limit on the local NPC for those items to control flooding the local market with one item over and over.

    • 55 posts
    August 21, 2018 11:21 PM PDT

    I spent time in the Tunnel, Nexus etc... gating for coin LOL.

    Red

    • 107 posts
    August 21, 2018 11:59 PM PDT

    If one has something worth enough time to run an hour to the tunnels, sit an hour spamming, then run an hour back. he will much more likely 1) post it in the organically created trade channel, if player channels can be made, or 2) post it on the organically made out of game bazaar website. Both things are organically made by the players in the exact same way as the tunnels were. They may not have the social aspects, but they will take you about 5 minutes, leaving you 2h55m to group with others. 

    Yes, I know. The world was great before the telephone. People took the time to write letters to each other. Before supermarkets and construction people lived in communities and knew everybody in their village. They helped each other out building houses and doing large chores because they were neighbors whose families knew each other for over 200 years.

    Sorry, it isn't the 1400's any more. The world is different, and no matter how much you and Ted Kaczynski want the world to go back, it wont. You can sit in the tunnel, and a few others will as well. But the vast majority of people that want to buy or sell the Sword of Uber are gonna do what people do these days, buy it on Amazon and have it delivered.

    Go to the tunnels spam chat hoping to find a buyer that will agree to the price you want, or post it and wait for a tell?

    Go to the tunnel hoping to find the item you want for a reasonable price, knowing that if it is being sold cheap someone will buy it quickly to turn around and resell it, if anyone is actually selling one at all, or alt-tab; favorited webpage; search?

    If you want to do this, go ahead. If there is an auction house in game or any other method, it does not change the ability of people do sit someone and spam/socialize. I do not know what I did to you to make you hate me so much you want to force me to do this crap. The good news is I will have 2 accounts per my pledge. So I guess I will just have one account tabbed or on a backup computer spamming then check every 5 or 10 minutes to see if I got a tell. I mean, if that is REALLY what you want me to do, I guess it wont hurt me much.

     


    This post was edited by alephen at August 22, 2018 12:00 AM PDT
    • 1479 posts
    August 22, 2018 4:03 AM PDT

    If you want to do this, go ahead. If there is an auction house in game or any other method, it does not change the ability of people do sit someone and spam/socialize. I do not know what I did to you to make you hate me so much you want to force me to do this crap. The good news is I will have 2 accounts per my pledge. So I guess I will just have one account tabbed or on a backup computer spamming then check every 5 or 10 minutes to see if I got a tell. I mean, if that is REALLY what you want me to do, I guess it wont hurt me much.

     

    Odd answer since it's your first reply on this topic.

    • 107 posts
    August 22, 2018 9:16 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    If you want to do this, go ahead. If there is an auction house in game or any other method, it does not change the ability of people do sit someone and spam/socialize. I do not know what I did to you to make you hate me so much you want to force me to do this crap. The good news is I will have 2 accounts per my pledge. So I guess I will just have one account tabbed or on a backup computer spamming then check every 5 or 10 minutes to see if I got a tell. I mean, if that is REALLY what you want me to do, I guess it wont hurt me much.

     

    Odd answer since it's your first reply on this topic.

    This may be a new thread, it is not a new topic. Just trying to point out that this is not something that will happen organically. If there is a trade spot it will only be because literally EVERY other option is forced out of the game. This is, of course, VRs perogative. But please can we stop pretending that it is more than selective memory and using the imposed tedioum to extort an easy game income. 

    • 1785 posts
    August 22, 2018 9:51 AM PDT

    I don't know why this topic keeps coming up so much lately.  Maybe it's just the flavor of the month for August?  Are we going to be back to arguing about how loot rights should be determined next month?

    I know some people had great experiences with the EC tunnel in their EQ days.  I was not one of those people - either as a buyer or a seller.  The Luclin bazaar was not much better, if I'm being honest.

    The primary issues that we need to address are:

    1) Insuring that the ability to buy/sell are not heavily skewed towards people with vast amounts of time to play.  There are an awful lot of gamers who only get a few hours a week to play games.  If you're going to tell them that in order to participate in the game economy they're going to have to go spend big chunks of that limited playtime standing around trying to get people to see what they type in a busy chat channel, or trying to figure out who's selling the item they want... guess what they're not going to do?

    2) Insuring that transactions are secure and that people aren't getting scammed.  One of the "fun" things I remember about my EC tunnel days in EQ was that scams were rampant.  I had guildmates and friends get scammed, I watched scams happened, I saw people in chat every day being victims of trade scams.  As a guide, I remember the countless petitions we would get about trade scams and our relative helplessness to do anything about it.  I get the desire for social interaction, but allowing the dark side of that to impact every player when there's an easy, safe, and proven alternative is just bad design.

    3) The game economy needs to support as many sellers and buyers as possible.  During the glory days of the EC tunnel, how many sellers were truly active in the tunnel at any given time?  20?  40?  Maybe 50ish at most?  How about buyers?  How many times did we see people crashing in the tunnel because there were simply too many people there?  How about the zone itself, where people were also trying to adventure and quest?  For Pantheon we should honestly want and expect for servers to scale up to thousands of active players.  That's what puts the life in the world.  If only a handful of those people can actually participate in the main trading area, then you don't really have an economy.

    My best experience with an economy in the past 20 years has been in games where regional markets and meaningful travel were a thing - where location mattered as much as quality or price.  Likewise, due to limited time to play, my best experiences have been in games that allowed me to sell goods without having to be online to do it, and where games allowed me to buy goods even if the seller wasn't online, and where that transaction was secured and protected.

    If we combine those concepts I think we start to approach the balanced system that will work best for the majority of people in Pantheon.  If someone still wants to go spend hours standing in the town square and sell stuff direct to other players, more power to them.  I'm sure they'll get plenty of business.  But for the rest of us, there needs to be something more than that in order for the economy to function.