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Dire Lord Stream Feedback

    • 1653 posts
    August 6, 2018 5:39 PM PDT

    Ashvaild said: My only concern with the damage was actually the damage output of the players. It seemed awfully high for low level characters. Cohh was hitting for 50+ regularly. For his level/weapon skill level I feel like ~50 would be a good Max dmg for a 2h axe. Just personal preference really. I don't like the crazy numbers other mmos have. It's pre-alpha so we'll see what happens

    The fact that they dropped stats by a factor of 10 gives me hope that we won't see other kinds of number inflation, but I agree completely. 

    • 1173 posts
    August 6, 2018 6:38 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Porygon said:

    A single mob being able to destroy a tank means that if you pull adds you will die.  If a tank dies quickly, casters (enchanters) will die in seconds.  At that point you're playing RNG with resists (think when they show the fights with the aoe sleeping boss, that boss has a mezz resisted and instantly kills the chanter) which is not a fun way to play.

    1 mob should not be dangerous if the tank is the one pulling and keeping aggro on it.  Multiple mobs are where the danger level increases and you need to be coordinated in order to successfully defeat these pulls.

    If you pull adds and don't CC them relatively quickly, yes. I'm not suggesting the mobs kill a tank within a few seconds but a single mob should be putting serious hurt on a tank and the healer should be working hard to keep him healed, with two mobs the healer should be in a losing battle unless someone can CC or offtank a short bit to buy a little time for some kind of CC. This game will be a total snooze if single mobs aren't threatening, it's not exactly hard to make sure your group is only fighting single mobs. 

     

    Combat is built around the idea of the quaternity, what better way for CC to be incredibly relevant (to the level that a tank or healer are)?

    If that's the case you're just making it that much harder to fill a group.  Now you NEED to have an enchanter.  If you dont you run the risk of dying very easily.   Theres nothing wrong with being able to kill 1 mob without concern... if you can consistently pull and tank 3+ mobs without fear... that is where I would draw the line personally.

    • 1653 posts
    August 6, 2018 6:59 PM PDT

    An additional complaint I have is the visual and audio cues when a mob aggros. That seems so fake and doesn't reward people who are paying attention. 

    • 1650 posts
    August 6, 2018 11:40 PM PDT

    If one mob is a threat, then what is a boss then ? Undoable ?

     

    There must be a balance between a dangerous environment and an undoable one. And a regular safe group mastering all the tools at their disposal should be having good results and not feel threatened by more than "oh ****" moments.

    It's also a 20ish environment at most, who got threatened by single pulls in Unrest or early MM back then, especially when fully geared close to your level ?

     

    I love the stream and the possibilities of the Direlord class, of course the squishyness versus self healing part will become a problem sooner or later if difficulty of ennemies is scaled of actual damage burst and not of long term damage done, but nothing guarantee it will be the case yet.

    The DL seemed to hit for big numbers too, with 100+ abyssmal strikes that wrecked the ennemies (however, some nukes from Wiz/ench were in the 300/400, but they seemed to have long cooldowns).

    • 477 posts
    August 7, 2018 2:49 AM PDT

    zoltar said:

    The difficulty in the game shouldn't hinge on players haveing a lack of pertinent information.  If someone wants to disable the debuff icons for aesthetic reasons, fine.  But I really don't like the idea of having to click through a bunch of mobs to individually see what status is on each one.  

    qalyar said:

    Also, regarding the debuff icons. Please, please do not make them be visible on active targets only. That's "interface difficulty", not real difficulty. Making debuffs visible opens up a lot more interesting and emergent gameplay. Players shouldn't have to continually cycle targets in order to see -- not manage, just see -- the state of effects on those enemies. That's ... carpal tunnely.

     

    It's no lack of pertinent information, if you're playing properly and paying attention to what the mobs and party member are doing there's no need to tab target, you'll know what's each mob as on them and what's happening, plus, they already have visual effects that signial a mob is CC'ed or debuffed, no need to make it even easier to notice something as important as that, or giving to much information in a easily accesible way to the point of making it trivial.

    My suggestion to avoid tab cycling trough mobs is a mouseover feature, something like this square ( https://imgur.com/QqvuO1d ; ) it would show up when you mouse over a target in the corner of your screen, so no need to actually click or change target to see their HP or debuffs icons (the debuffs icons would be above the square), it would work as a IRL quick glance. 

    Making combat information easily accesible is terrible for the overall dificulty of the game, and diminishes the need and importance of situational awareness, so players that are actually paying attention get and advantage over those who are in auto-pilot mode and would never have noticed something as important as a debuffs or CC, but with a red icon suddently appearing under the name of the mob that is something those auto-pilot players will never miss it.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at August 7, 2018 3:38 AM PDT
    • 27 posts
    August 7, 2018 5:43 AM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    It's no lack of pertinent information, if you're playing properly and paying attention to what the mobs and party member are doing there's no need to tab target, you'll know what's each mob as on them and what's happening, plus, they already have visual effects that signial a mob is CC'ed or debuffed, no need to make it even easier to notice something as important as that, or giving to much information in a easily accesible way to the point of making it trivial.

    My suggestion to avoid tab cycling trough mobs is a mouseover feature, something like this square ( https://imgur.com/QqvuO1d ; ) it would show up when you mouse over a target in the corner of your screen, so no need to actually click or change target to see their HP or debuffs icons (the debuffs icons would be above the square), it would work as a IRL quick glance. 

    Making combat information easily accesible is terrible for the overall dificulty of the game, and diminishes the need and importance of situational awareness, so players that are actually paying attention get and advantage over those who are in auto-pilot mode and would never have noticed something as important as a debuffs or CC, but with a red icon suddently appearing under the name of the mob that is something those auto-pilot players will never miss it.

    Whether displaying (your) debuffs on non-active mobs trivializes gameplay depends in some degree on whether or not your debuff gameplay is already trivial. In EQ1, the Enchanter's role (especially if a Shaman was also present) was to Tash everything, and to mez N-1 mobs (when that was possible). That's... not exciting. At various times in the game's history, they were also capable of doing some token dps. Pantheon can and should do better. Give debuff-focused characters three or four effects to manage, some of which are on short enough timers to not be fire and forget. Consider "tradeoff" effects, like a moderate duration resource-leech that can be placed on a mezzed mob without breaking it, but which also considerable increases the enemy's combat stats while it is running. Or a debuff that boosts the resource generation of your defensive target (probably your tank, but maybe yourself), and can also be used on mezzed targets, but can only be applied to one enemy at a time (like the Dread Lord ramp taunt debuff) and leaves behind an immunity effect with a fairly long duration. What if we add effects with positive kickers if they're still running when the mob dies? Or even negative ones?

    Second, EQ (and most MMOs) view debuffs as fait accompli, except maybe in very rare cases where a mob has a purge (=self-dispel) mechanism. That's open design space. Flat dispels should probably be rare (but not absent) because they're not particularly compelling gameplay (oh, look, everything you did is gone now!). But what if there's an_orc_rager who periodically decreases the remaining duration of his own detrimental effects in exchange for self-damage. Your debuffs on him are less efficient from a strict use-perspective, but it's maybe possible to literally keep him locked down until he dies from it. But certainly, the timing of your effects is now very asynchonous. The right gameplay there shouldn't be "babysit targeting on that mob".

    Also, EQ championed very static combat. Once the pull was complete, characters never moved. Other MMOs have tried to enforce some variation on this, mostly in the "get out of the red circle" style of play. Pantheon has teased us with abilities that indicate things won't always be so simple. Rangers move in and out of melee range. Wizards have been promised some "inertia" effects. Druids have a Lifegrip-style relocation to pull an injured comrade to the tree. Why does this matter for debuff management? Because enemies can and should have similar powers as well. Not all the time, certainly. But a little goes a long way. In EQ, if I am fighting three identical an_orc, they're easy to manage. The tank is fighting an_orc_01. I have an_orc_02 mezzed over there, and an_orc_03 is rooted over there. I want the skill inherent in the game to be an understanding of how to maximize the effectiveness of your character, both individually and in a group (and to handle the encounter mechanics). I don't want it to be "physical clicking skill" or "aptitude at three card monty". If nothing else, consensus seems to be that understanding of your class, not manual dexterity, is the goal here; precision clicking or mouseover management rapidly makes the game inaccessible to gamers with some disabilities.

    Finally, I think status conditions should also be globally visible. If we're fighting three non-mezzed mobs (because that's how we roll), and the Shaman makes one of them Wet, I want to be able to see that so that my Druid can take advantage of the Lightning synergy. This goes double if there are status effects that can be generated by enemy mechanics. The Water Giant Hydrologist's big AE burst attack makes us all Wet, but makes him Wet too, for example.

    • 477 posts
    August 7, 2018 6:32 AM PDT

    Enchanter already seem to have a way more active roll than they did in EQ, in addition to needing to Mez, they restore mana to the group when they deal damage and seem to be casting all the time. I actually would love to see something like your "resource-leech" or some sort of dot that does not break mezz but has a really high threat modifier so if he breaks out before the tank cant taunt you're 100% stuck with a mob on you xd.

    When I talked about dispels I was refering to the healer dispelling a party member when they get afflicted by a debuff, bleed, poison etc, not mobs dispelling your debuffs, but I wouldn't be oposed to some mob having something like that.

    I hate the "get out of the red circle" gameplay that wow has been pushing since Wotlk/Cata onwards, it's one of the thing I most despise about current gen games.......... I hope VR takes the subtle aproach and "telegprahs" ground AoE effect in a subtle manner, by giving the mobs a different "wind up" animation before a big from cone AoE or before an AoE stomp, or even a voice/Chat line before they do a dangerous attack, none of that red circle bulshit.

    Again I completly agree, things like the shaman making a mob wet should be visible, but why does it need to be an icon under the mobs name, why can't it be a visual tell (the mob getting soaked in water and getting a blueish tone) why does everything need to be made super obvious and displayed in a tidy maner.

    I agree with most of what you said and I hope it gets implemented into the game, but why is there the need for debuff icons under the mobs name? why can't it be displayed just by visual effects, why do you need to have all the information readily and easily acessible, when you're supossed to be in a huge messy fight? Making information to easily acessible takes a huge **** on the players who have the ability to focus and keep awereness over the duration of the encounter, know what has happened, what spells the mob already casted, what spells it's casting, who the mob is targeting, what debuffs the mob has, what self buffs has the mob casted on himself, all of this shouldn't be displayed in a tidy manner, if you want to get this information you should at least need to tab or mouseover or click trought the mobs to check what's going on, or even better look at the NPC model and see what they're doing, what effects they have on themselves just by the visual effects that the game offers you (they already have this for roots, for mezzes, for the rogue CC, for the stuns) that is at least 4 visual effects that allow you to udnerstand what has happened to the mob without any sort of icon under their name, if you're paying close attention to combat you can pick all that up, and much more, no need for obvious red icon to tell you what's going on with every single mob.

     

    • 373 posts
    August 7, 2018 7:39 AM PDT

    jpedrote said: why does it need to be an icon under the mobs name, why can't it be a visual tell (the mob getting soaked in water and getting a blueish tone) why does everything need to be made super obvious and displayed in a tidy maner.

     

    Doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.  First, you add a ton of extra work making all those visual effects.  Even if you did it, you end up with visual effect clutter.  No thanks.

    • 27 posts
    August 7, 2018 10:28 AM PDT
    I prefer major visual effects mostly being restricted to things the mob does, rather than things I do to the mob. Let's say there are 3 mobs in camp. Two are mezzed, two are Wet, all three are slowed, and one is snared.

    I do not want on-model effects for all of that. It's cluttered. It's likely a problem for poorer performing machines. It makes it easier to miss the visual effects that indicate when the mobs are taking important actions.

    The effects I produce on enemies should be displayed, to me, in a tidy fashion because that's responsible design. The alternative is fake difficulty. Pantheon can be plenty challenging even if debuff classes can easily see what debuffs are active on which enemies (and buff classes, which buffs on which allies).
    • 477 posts
    August 8, 2018 5:26 AM PDT

    zoltar said:

    Doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.  First, you add a ton of extra work making all those visual effects.  Even if you did it, you end up with visual effect clutter.  No thanks.

    But they're already doing individual visual effects for every spell, you can clearly see that on the streams, visual clutter will always be there, but having 20 icons spread all over the screen is way worse for visual clutter in comparison to visual effects on the NPC models that are actually part of the game world. and if you want a closer look at what's going on because you're not paying enough atention select the target (or mouse over if they implement my sugestion) and see it's debuffs.

     


    This post was edited by jpedrote at August 8, 2018 5:37 AM PDT
    • 477 posts
    August 8, 2018 5:34 AM PDT

    qalyar said: I prefer major visual effects mostly being restricted to things the mob does, rather than things I do to the mob. Let's say there are 3 mobs in camp. Two are mezzed, two are Wet, all three are slowed, and one is snared. I do not want on-model effects for all of that. It's cluttered. It's likely a problem for poorer performing machines. It makes it easier to miss the visual effects that indicate when the mobs are taking important actions. The effects I produce on enemies should be displayed, to me, in a tidy fashion because that's responsible design. The alternative is fake difficulty. Pantheon can be plenty challenging even if debuff classes can easily see what debuffs are active on which enemies (and buff classes, which buffs on which allies).

    On model effects already exist for most those things (snare/root is the pink/red cobweb, Mezz is the glowing purple ball in front of the mobs head, Wet there's a huge AoE ground effect that appear for 1 second when the mob gets wet, and the snare I'm not sure, There's also a taunt visual effect for warrior atleast, there's a visual effect for the rogues CC, there's a visual effect/animation for stuns, most debuffs have some sort of large visual effect when they get applied, etc).

    I don't disagree with the debuffs being displaying in a tidy fashion, but that display should be limited to your current target, if you wanna check the debuffs of other targets in a tidy fashion (icons) you should need to either click the target (mouse over them if VR implements my sugestion) or my favourite one, pay attention to what's going on in the fight and now what has already happened to the mob with the help of currently active visual effect and past visual effects that were displayed on the mob.


    This post was edited by jpedrote at August 8, 2018 5:37 AM PDT
    • 210 posts
    August 8, 2018 12:39 PM PDT

    I can say that in general, the main issue right now is not in the quality/amount of the Tank's Hate generation, but more that the DPS and Healer classes aren't generating enough Hate.

    I've been reworking the Hate formulas quite a bit and have found a good foundation point to tune the tanks around. I'm in the process of getting the rest of the Classes updated around that foundation point, but several of them simply aren't there yet. By the next stream, you should see a tangible improvement in this area, with Hate gaining/holding being more of a meaningful exercise.

    • 210 posts
    August 8, 2018 12:43 PM PDT

    jpedrote said:

    I know I’m annoying as hell with the animations, but they’re really important to me it’s something you see 100% of the play time and getting them right will help the game a lot with first impressions, having animations that feel “weighty and grounded” and having movement animations where the characters don’t “slide or Glide” and actually look like they have weight when moving would do wonders. The new idle animations are a huge step in the right direction and if everything else is done to that standard Pantheon will be well set.

    I'm super finnicky about animations as well - can't wait for us to make more progress in that area. We've said it before and it's important to say it again: expect the animations to continue to improve as we approach Beta and eventually launch.

    • 1653 posts
    August 8, 2018 4:30 PM PDT

    zoltar said:

    jpedrote said: why does it need to be an icon under the mobs name, why can't it be a visual tell (the mob getting soaked in water and getting a blueish tone) why does everything need to be made super obvious and displayed in a tidy maner.

     

    Doesn't make sense for a lot of reasons.  First, you add a ton of extra work making all those visual effects.  Even if you did it, you end up with visual effect clutter.  No thanks.

    Disagree. Makes sense for a lot of reasons.

    • 477 posts
    August 9, 2018 3:17 AM PDT

    That's great to hear Joppa, I love the tanking aspect of racing againt your groups hate to keep aggro, it makes tanking that much interesting and stressing, becuase if you slack there's a big chance your group mates are going to get destroyed by the mobs, but it also makes good tanks a lot more valuable, not only do you need to lead your group torugh the dungeons, takes care of the pulls and main assist, but you also need to work hard to keep targets on you.

    And I'm anxiously waiting to see the new animations, I know it will be a long wait, but it will be worth it.

    • Moderator
    • 8618 posts
    August 9, 2018 4:02 AM PDT

    Moved to the Dire Lord subforum.