Forums » The Dire Lord

What is the upside for a tank taking spike damage?

    • 19 posts
    August 6, 2018 11:09 AM PDT

    Mostly just curious about the communities thoughts on this one.

    Damage against the Dire Lord is inherently more spikey in nature which is more stressful for the group. Since the Paladin/Warrior will bring a shield and wear heavier armor to smooth out the damage spikes, what is the benefit to the group for bringing a dire lord? Is it the damage it brings to the tank role? Single target hate generation can't be seen as that much of a boon when compared with AE aggro management to make it worth while to bring a DL on it's own. So then would it just be speed of mob clears/DPS checks or will the DL be relegated to offtank?

    It seems like it would def be more viable if your group is bringing 2 tanks since the DL can double as DPS+1 mob lockdown. But as a main tank, will it be in demand? Should it be in demand?

    OFC all this is subject to change, i just love the insight i get on the forums. People here have pretty great takes on things.

    • 477 posts
    August 6, 2018 11:41 AM PDT
    Maybe dl brings more damage, maybe he got more efficient self heals. Maybe he get more raw hp.

    • 101 posts
    August 6, 2018 11:50 AM PDT

    I think people need to be OK with difference between a main tank class and an offtank class.. I dont know if this is how the devs will build tanks in pantheon.. just saying.

     

    We will have to wait and see how DL playstyle works out with other classes.  Perhaps the spikes are migitated by other abilities.

     

    In general tho.. if you take more damage then you should provide more dps or utility for the group.  Thats a standard rule.  Liek wizzies are glass cannons because a tank cannon would be OP hah.

    • 238 posts
    August 6, 2018 1:46 PM PDT

    I know they said in the stream that Dire Lords' life jumps up and down more than the other tanks, but I'm still thinking they might have been mostly talking about when they are tanking physical damage dealing mobs. Dire Lords are supposed to have greater magic resistance with Sanguine Cloak, so they might be the best anti-magic tanks.

    • 264 posts
    August 6, 2018 2:30 PM PDT

    The upside are that it is fun for both the healer and the tank because of the challenge. Also the fights are less predictible, it is more risky and some people feel that because of that it is more rewarding. It is fun to play with the limits of the character that can self heal, regen a lot, and take decent hits. Lot of adreanlines in most fights and like Cohh mentionned, the gameplay feels very active. 

    • 1653 posts
    August 7, 2018 11:39 PM PDT

    I'm fine with difference, I simply know the balance will be fragile if hard boss design turns out to be "extrême bursting bosses" because the unreliable defense of a spikey tank will turn in defavor as it will require more reaction and attention from the healers.

     

    I just hope it doesn't turn out to be an "unhealable tank", because the DL can easily delay Abyssal strike after a big punch to give himself an additionnal breath of 25% life, but it won't work if he gets obliterated in one shot/combo.

    His cooldown seems to be very "Anti burst oriented" but with such a long cooldown it doesn't seem to be a specific counter mechanic to lower Armor.

    Anyway, with armor's functionnality away from Wow's scheme, the spikey damage might not be such a hard case, wait&see.

     

    I'm also perfectly fine if they design the Direlord as an offtank for multiple group targets, but I don't think a 2 MT 1 OT tank pool is balanced enough, and fights with no surprise adds don't make an OT shine much, or make them optionnal.

    • 4336 posts
    August 8, 2018 3:35 AM PDT

    Gyldervane said:

    I know they said in the stream that Dire Lords' life jumps up and down more than the other tanks, but I'm still thinking they might have been mostly talking about when they are tanking physical damage dealing mobs. Dire Lords are supposed to have greater magic resistance with Sanguine Cloak, so they might be the best anti-magic tanks.

    Definitely. Dire Lords will almost certainly be the premier anti-magic tanks. I also don't think that single target hate generation is insignificant compared to AOE hate generation. I'd be willing to bet that in fights with a single boss/mob, the DL will be able to hold aggro far better than any other tank. I'm sure there'll be certain fights where that's very important. Each class has their forte. But as others have said, the additional DPS will be nice too. I like the volatile nature of the DL's life bar. I think it lends itself to the flavor and playstyle of the DL well. It seems like an exciting, fine line to ride. High risk, high reward.

    • 1653 posts
    August 8, 2018 4:11 AM PDT

    What about a short duration absorb costing life ? Like : loose 10% of your current health to shield yourself of 20% of your max health for 3 or 5 seconds.

     

    That way you can use it for hard hitting bosses to expand your EH with 10% more durability, or with a minimal cost if you're low on life to avoid a killing blow.

     

    Of course it's not worth it at max health unless until at least half the shield is consumed, really good for slow hard hitters, but the less current health you have, the more it's worthwhile in any situation.

     

     

    The downside is that it might be a bit taking the healer's job away, but that's already the case with abyssal strike, thresh and essence leech.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at August 8, 2018 5:23 AM PDT
    • 491 posts
    August 8, 2018 9:36 AM PDT

    I think it also plays into a different style of healing. With a warrior who's health goes down more consistantly with no self heals you can wait and use long casting more big punch heals. With a DL who's health goes up and down and up and down as he heals himself, you might compliment him with more quick little heals rather than trying to toss a big heal that might end up being overheal and waste mana.

    • 1653 posts
    August 8, 2018 1:20 PM PDT

    GoofyWarriorGuy said:

    I think it also plays into a different style of healing. With a warrior who's health goes down more consistantly with no self heals you can wait and use long casting more big punch heals. With a DL who's health goes up and down and up and down as he heals himself, you might compliment him with more quick little heals rather than trying to toss a big heal that might end up being overheal and waste mana.

     

    As it was in EQ2, more spikey damage especially with self healins will synergize better with absorbs that allows the heal not to waste, prevent burst and leave breath to the Direlord's self healings withouth wasting them.

    • 103 posts
    August 13, 2018 7:45 AM PDT
    I am hesitant here. It looks fun as hell to play, and I can't make a real call on it until I try it.

    But something tells me that in a boss fight/raid where everyone is at the limit, spike damage to the tank is going to be rough.

    Its at the end of the fight, when resources are low, the cleric is waiting for just enough mana for one more heal, and boom - DL spikes below zero. No amount of self heal is gonna bump you back up.
    • 129 posts
    August 24, 2018 7:52 PM PDT

    As a healer, I will push for recruiting the less spikey tank every time. I'll take having to throw an extra heal per fight on the caster mobs that may be encountered vs having some consistency. After 4+ hours of leveling, pushing limits is fun, pushing limits for 6+ hours of grind time/leveling/raiding is not. Consistency is key. I am skeptical about the DL currently, it may be a different story when highly geared/raid equipped but... watching that health bar bounce around in the group made me stressed coming from a Shaman main in the EQ world.

    As for DPS, if we wanted more DPS, we would fill another slot with a DPS class. Just need the tank to taunt and stay alive.


    This post was edited by Rogue at August 24, 2018 7:54 PM PDT
    • 694 posts
    September 5, 2018 9:52 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Gyldervane said:

    I know they said in the stream that Dire Lords' life jumps up and down more than the other tanks, but I'm still thinking they might have been mostly talking about when they are tanking physical damage dealing mobs. Dire Lords are supposed to have greater magic resistance with Sanguine Cloak, so they might be the best anti-magic tanks.

    Definitely. Dire Lords will almost certainly be the premier anti-magic tanks. I also don't think that single target hate generation is insignificant compared to AOE hate generation. I'd be willing to bet that in fights with a single boss/mob, the DL will be able to hold aggro far better than any other tank. I'm sure there'll be certain fights where that's very important. Each class has their forte. But as others have said, the additional DPS will be nice too. I like the volatile nature of the DL's life bar. I think it lends itself to the flavor and playstyle of the DL well. It seems like an exciting, fine line to ride. High risk, high reward.

    A lot of baseless opinions.  Being able to out agro other tanks may be detrimental when your role is offtank - If the defense and AC mechanic is anything similar to EQ then the DL will need special attention from the support roles in order to survive encounters because even magic based encounter will likely deal physical dmg as well (but not vice versa).  Most MMO players know that higher DPS is useless if you are a corpse or are wasting the healer's resources.  And I agree that there is high risk with having a low mitigation tank, but given the previous statements, what is the "high reward" you speak of?  I stand by my "opinion" that if the tank's mitigations are not somewhat similar then there will absolutely be changes made to the class later, which will immediately cause an uproar within the community and eventually lead to game imbalances and constant changing of other game mechanics potentially ruining the vision that the devs currently have forecasted.  Also, if this is like EQ in respect to DPS, the "end game" warrior will likely be higher DPS than the DL as well (when taking into consideration that warriors will very likely get all of the BIS gear whenever new content comes out and they can use any weapon/armor combo).

    An easy fix would be to add the role of "Off-tank" like the Monk and remove "Tank" from the DL description (if their intention is for the DL to be a situational "tank") ... That would probably upset some, but the devs won't have to make huge changes to the game to try to make "all tanks viable"... alternatively they can allow the DL to wear full plate and STILL have lower mitigation without a shiled and a 20% lower armor proficiency skill.  People have posted their concerns of the negative impacts that this will have but nobody can post a (logical) positive effect of having a "tank" that can't mitigate damage aside from Fanboy (emotional) responses.  I get that we are all excited about the game, and it "seems exciting to ride a fine line" but we need to use a little bit of logic too.  At the end of the day, although the game raises a lot of emotions in us, the code is logic/math and no matter how much you argue emotionally math will win in the end.  

    edit: To directly answer the original poster's question, there is no "logical" benefit to a tank taking spike damage.


    This post was edited by Darch at September 5, 2018 11:13 AM PDT
    • 23 posts
    September 5, 2018 6:24 PM PDT

    Rogue said:

    As a healer, I will push for recruiting the less spikey tank every time. I'll take having to throw an extra heal per fight on the caster mobs that may be encountered vs having some consistency. After 4+ hours of leveling, pushing limits is fun, pushing limits for 6+ hours of grind time/leveling/raiding is not. Consistency is key. I am skeptical about the DL currently, it may be a different story when highly geared/raid equipped but... watching that health bar bounce around in the group made me stressed coming from a Shaman main in the EQ world.

    As for DPS, if we wanted more DPS, we would fill another slot with a DPS class. Just need the tank to taunt and stay alive.

    Direlords are meant to be the tanks that face magical encounters. Maybe when the tank archtypes are balanced the dire lord will have the least spikey damage compared to the paladin and warrior when receiving magical damage. If this is true then your arguement says the dire lord is the preferred tank in this situation.

    • 396 posts
    September 5, 2018 8:23 PM PDT

    Based on what has been revealed so far I think the Dire Lord will be as follows (relative to the other tanks).

    Dire Lord
    Pro: High single target threat generation - allows single target dps classes to dps harder on their target, which kills the enemy more quickly (this really shouldn't be underestimated).
    Pro: High magic mitigation - the best tank for any magic based fight whether group or raid tier.
    Pro: High damage output for a tank - minor boon in a group scene.
    Con: Spikey damage - very concerning as you scale to larger physical targets. Even off-tanking physical raid mobs will be rough.
    Con: Poor AoE threat relative to Warrior and Paladin (assumption, but I think likely)?
    Con: Reduced physical mitigation - this, when paired with poor AoE threat, seems like it will spell disaster for overpulls.

    As others have pointed out, there is no benefit to taking spike damage, but there are certainly things that could outweigh some spike damage. I think Dire Lords will excel in controlled environments where pulls are steady, single (or at least handled by a good CC), and especially with high hp mobs where you want your dps going full throttle for efficiency's sake.


    This post was edited by Ainadak at September 5, 2018 8:26 PM PDT
    • 589 posts
    September 6, 2018 1:02 AM PDT

    From Bazgrim's transcription of the interview with Brad and Chris (here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9274/-/view/post_id/176734):

     

    What makes a Dire Lord a desirable tanking class?

    The Dire Lord is not intended to be a broken tank. They're intended to be a tank as effectively as a main tank at all levels of content. But they're designed to do that in a very unique way, which I think is a lot of fun and really refreshing. The other thing that I'm honestly surprised I haven’t seen more people pick up on is the focus that the Dire Lord has on countering magical enemies. The class reveals are not meant to be exhaustive - many abilities are not listed because they are abilities that are found and discovered in the world, and we're not going to spoil those. But what you can start picking up on with the Dire Lord is a magic based defense that they have that is really powerful. We want to design our different encounters to be more thoughtful and engaging. The fact that Dire Lords are so effective against magic-based enemies is a really big deal, and I want to call attention to that. We’ve got some new things that we're going to be trying to do with encounters that go beyond the traditional main tank and off-tanking strategy. Don't be surprised to see situations where you need two main tanks simultaneously. You may be fighting an enemy that is dealing physical and magical damage at the same time in different ways. We're trying to think out of the box. When we say all of these tanks are going to be viable, it may not necessarily mean that every tank is going to be just as good at physical mitigation as the other. But there are absolutely going to be encounters where you’ll want a main tank that is good against magic or a main tank that is good against undead. It’s really important that we break away from traditional MMO bosses that all feel mostly the same, just with varying HP and damage.

    • 694 posts
    September 6, 2018 5:31 AM PDT

    Sarim said:

    From Bazgrim's transcription of the interview with Brad and Chris (here: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/9274/-/view/post_id/176734):

     

    What makes a Dire Lord a desirable tanking class?

    The Dire Lord is not intended to be a broken tank. They're intended to be a tank as effectively as a main tank at all levels of content. But they're designed to do that in a very unique way, which I think is a lot of fun and really refreshing. The other thing that I'm honestly surprised I haven’t seen more people pick up on is the focus that the Dire Lord has on countering magical enemies. The class reveals are not meant to be exhaustive - many abilities are not listed because they are abilities that are found and discovered in the world, and we're not going to spoil those. But what you can start picking up on with the Dire Lord is a magic based defense that they have that is really powerful. We want to design our different encounters to be more thoughtful and engaging. The fact that Dire Lords are so effective against magic-based enemies is a really big deal, and I want to call attention to that. We’ve got some new things that we're going to be trying to do with encounters that go beyond the traditional main tank and off-tanking strategy. Don't be surprised to see situations where you need two main tanks simultaneously. You may be fighting an enemy that is dealing physical and magical damage at the same time in different ways. We're trying to think out of the box. When we say all of these tanks are going to be viable, it may not necessarily mean that every tank is going to be just as good at physical mitigation as the other. But there are absolutely going to be encounters where you’ll want a main tank that is good against magic or a main tank that is good against undead. It’s really important that we break away from traditional MMO bosses that all feel mostly the same, just with varying HP and damage.

    So you're describing an "Off-tank" not a "Tank".  A class designed to hold agro in very specific situations (not to mention that magic based encounters could also include phys dmg).  The Paladin is designed to be more effective vs undead, but that doesn't lower their effectiveness against everything else.   Also - having an innate higher threat generation than the other tanks could be detrimental when your role is off-tank and you need to swap threat during physical dmg mechanics.  See my message above about arguing emotion against logic.  


    This post was edited by Darch at September 6, 2018 5:32 AM PDT
    • 396 posts
    September 6, 2018 7:43 AM PDT
    @Darch - your point is valid if it is true that magic based encounters are infrequent. If 1/3 of the mobs in the game are highly magic based, then you’ll see a nice balance of fights where you want a Dire Lord taking the hits.
    Also, the Dire Lord seems to get their single target threat generation from an ability. If that is the case, then you can simply not use it if you don’t want to build threat.
    You also are discounting the part where it is explicitly stated that they want the Dire Lord to be a main tank. I see no logical reason why that’s not a feasible thing to do. A primarily anti-magic and single target threat tank is not an inherently flawed premise for a class as far as I can tell.
    • 694 posts
    September 7, 2018 1:47 PM PDT

    Ainadak said: @Darch - your point is valid if it is true that magic based encounters are infrequent. If 1/3 of the mobs in the game are highly magic based, then you’ll see a nice balance of fights where you want a Dire Lord taking the hits. Also, the Dire Lord seems to get their single target threat generation from an ability. If that is the case, then you can simply not use it if you don’t want to build threat. You also are discounting the part where it is explicitly stated that they want the Dire Lord to be a main tank. I see no logical reason why that’s not a feasible thing to do. A primarily anti-magic and single target threat tank is not an inherently flawed premise for a class as far as I can tell.

    You make very good points.  The only reasoning I would use to argue the DL having the tank role and not off-tank role is that even magic based encounters will deal physical damage at some point.  If the class is going to use a role for 33% of their gameplay then that should not be their primary role "in my opinion" (and I think 1/3 is generous).

    I'd be pretty dissapointed if they make content impossible unless you have a well geared specifc class (i.e. a mechanic that only a DL can survive, or only an ENC can CC).  With that said, I'm certain the game will function in its current design, but not optimally; and regardless how much people say that they welcome the challenge and excitement of not knowing if their tank is going to survive, when they start having 2 and 3 hour corpse runs repeatedly they will start looking to optimize their time.  

    • 44 posts
    September 7, 2018 5:09 PM PDT

    I agree. while not having played the class yet ive seen this all before, no raid.. no real group (unless its a pity group) is going to take a DL over a warrior or paladin. the simple fact is no tank gets a penalty for fighting magic based mobs. only a bonus for the DL, most zones ive seen in every game ive played are primarily physical damage with magic mixed in (unless your fighting in like a wizard based theme zone) and even the magical mobs will hit with physical damage.  so now you have 1 tank that takes less magic but more physical damage. but just about every mob you will ever come in contact with will eventually physically hit you. unless it is a group of friends. or someone feeling sorry for you, no group "min maxer" or not will prefer to take extra downtime because every fight is harder to heal. have to burn it down faster because the tank is getting raped.  i would say that in a normal group zone. 1 in 10 mobs will be casters (from my experience) thats not a theme based zone.  so for every 10 fights roughly you will benefit from a DL in one fight.  so thats 10 times you had to heal harder dps faster etc to end the fight asap.. now same scenario. with a different tank. 10 mobs easymode. one mob slightly harder.  the thing is the DL has a penalty. lighter armor less ac. no tank has a penalty to magic... simple math 

    physical:

    warrior +1

    paladin +1

    DL -1

    magic 

    warrior 0 (zero is no penalty but no enchancement)

    paladin 0 (maybe a +1 with the amount of stuns they have... could be considered but i wont)

    DL +1

    please dont get me wrong. I do love the idea of the DL and its great in theory and was my #1 hands down pick of class and  after watching 2 video's (one where cohh, was fully geared in what i would assume was some of the best for his level/class) which yes. he did a fair job.  but look at the other DL neither one really held up and from personal experience it wont take long for ppl to find out its easier and more efficient to bring this tank and you will have what every SK DK etc has had to deal with since 1999 in just about every mmo ive played... 

    i truely hope they figure something out and i am 100% wrong these are my concerns and what i have noticed from the streams ive watched like 20 times trying to pick things apart.


    This post was edited by Rhelic at September 7, 2018 5:13 PM PDT
    • 396 posts
    September 7, 2018 7:07 PM PDT
    @Darch - I think my DL cup is half full of blood while yours is half empty. You could say magic encounters can have a physical component, but that’s exactly the same as saying that physical encounters can have a magical component.
    We’re just beginning to have the class concepts come into focus, but I do understand your hesitancy at this point. Basically the pitch for the DL seems to be “he has all these downsides that we find fascinating, but it works and is fun! We’ll continue to tune as necessary.” That’s not a great sales pitch for your guild’s main tank. However, it’s all in the balancing. If the DL is overvalued in magical encounters and undervalued on physical such that it causes issues, then you just tweak some numbers.
    The flaws that the DL is intended to have are right up there in your face, so it’s a bit tough to ignore. There could be equivalent flaws with the Warrior and Paladin though. Maybe the Paladin will struggle to keep aggro on anything that isn’t undead? Maybe the Warrior will get pummeled by every magical nuke that is pointed his way.
    You have set forth some potential scenarios that would turn out badly and I completely agree that they would. I just also think they can be fairly easily mitigated or avoided by the other abilities/traits of the DL that we haven’t seen yet, but time will tell.
    • 23 posts
    September 8, 2018 11:43 AM PDT

     

    You make very good points.  The only reasoning I would use to argue the DL having the tank role and not off-tank role is that even magic based encounters will deal physical damage at some point.  If the class is going to use a role for 33% of their gameplay then that should not be their primary role "in my opinion" (and I think 1/3 is generous).

    This can go both ways, at some point even a physical based encounter could deal magical damage at some point.

     

    • 103 posts
    September 24, 2018 4:16 PM PDT

    DL will likely be the best solo tank, and the most efficient group content tank because of the extra DPS and less need for outside healing. So if that's how you want to play the game, the DL is probably going to be a very fun class.

    However, endgame content will most likely not be tanked by DLs. That content will have to be balanced such that Warrior's superior mitigation doesn't trivialize the encounter, so those mobs will be able to one-shot a DL...making them not viable.

    DLs may be able to carve out a role as a raid offtank that requires very little assistance to deal with an add if their mitigation is good enough that their self heals are enough to keep them alive, but if you want to be the guy tanking Lord Nagafen's distant cousin, you will need to be a Warrior. If a DL still requires a healer to offtank an add, then raids will just want Warrior's offtanking adds too.

    The DL is very likely to be fairly marginalized on end game content, as all hybrids with no clear specialization tend to be...unless things are set up to require "magic tanks" and "melee" tanks and "undead tanks".

    • 694 posts
    November 29, 2018 11:11 AM PST

    We have to wait and see... and I truly hope the devs prove those of us concerned wrong.  The problem is that we may likely have to wait until the game is live and enough people have progressed to end game content before we see, unless they equip Alpha testers in max gear with max level and let us repeatedly parse the same encounters (revealing content I'm sure they won't want revealed) while changing the one variable each time... because this is what live players will do (at which point the DLs that were hoping to be "The tank" may (OR NOT) be supremely dissapointed).  I would love to play the DL, but I refuse to play the underdog of tanks any more, although I know some people revel in the challenge of being the underdog, or find it exciting to play with the uncertainty of success/failure (as I did years ago).  Its for this reason that I "personally feel" that the devs are intentionally doing this, to cater to the desires of those that enjoy the volatile gameplay of "living on the edge".  And we need to be fine with that (I'm just not cool if people end up spending literally thousands of hours expecting something that they won't get until a future expansion(s)).  I personally don't have the temparement for that anymore haha.  (And if "living on the edge" turns out to be the theme for the DL, I "personally" won't want to heal them even though the DRU may be the best suited to heal the DL... unless I can't find an alternative, like a monk - j/k  :p)  

    I'm waiting to see if I'm proven wrong - I truly hope I am.

    • 1653 posts
    November 29, 2018 3:08 PM PST

    I'm still wondering how the Direlord's cooldown Dampen Harm will play in this sense, since it's meant to mitigate more with large attacks. That means the mitigation is not really uniform depending on the number of ennemies , and it would mitigate more tanking two hard hitter mobs than three medium hitters which feels a bit odd.

    However, I know that the design of Pantheon is not about multi enemy tanking, which probably makes it a false problem overall.

     

    The question is : how will self healing interact or be avaliable ?

    We know Thresh will be a bread and butter low cooldown spell that will ensure some regular pumping health (12% over 4 second with 6 second cooldown), it will probably not play much in the balance outside of offering a few health every ennemy hit (If a mob attacks every two seconds, that's  6% max health recovered in between hits), which remains a good punch overall but nothing like a short term emergency.

    Abyssal Strike is probably the great question is, but since it's divided between beeing the hardest hitting Direlord skill and their biggest self healing ability, the struggle will be "should I save it for a big hit or use it instantly for damage".

     

    The "big picture" might be around this :

    -Thresh is here to compensate auto attack damage on a regular basis, pumping life every now and then.

    -Abyssal Strike is here to compensate a big special attack on a less regular basis, held everytime the direlord has to raise his life 25% higher of his max health. But it only works if it happens at most every 15 seconds, and if the big hit doesn't kill the Direlord instantly, which seems very restrictive for now as nothing here is about pre-emptive mitigation.

    -Dampen harm is here as a pre-emptive mitigation tool, with a two minute cooldowns and a 10 seconds diration, it guarantee some form of heavy mitigation 8.33% of the time, which isn't much for now but shouldn't be used outside of "oh **** situations" or controlled environments where you exactly knows when and how to use it.

     

    Nothing here is a certitude, or a bulletproof argument, just summed up informations about "what they might have in mind over the direlord's design". The fact is : it can be viable as a tank, or can't. It all depends of encounter design and the fragile barrier between Mob's DPS and the tank's max HP. As long as a raid target is based on squishing close to 100% of the tank's HP with chains of extremely big heals, it will not be viable because only mitigation "might" be viable, but especially Health will be the most viable thing as it was during EQ Velious pinnacle of vulak aerr.

    I'm mensionning vulak aerr because that mob's specificity was that his ATK was so high, no AC was able to mitigate his damage. He was simply maiming tanks for max damage every strike, which made AC useless, shields useless, and avoidance an unreliable stat. The only exceptions here were what made warriors shine during this era : Vulak's damage calculation couldn't hit the natural twenty while hitting warriors since it was their "passive" (Mob's melee damage was an AX+B formula where X was an entire number between 1 and 20, for warriors it was only from 1 to 19. The odds of numbers were calculated close to a gaussian curve around a number depending from a calculation between ATK of the opponent, and real AC (avoidance less) of the player). It could shines on mobs with a high A factor and a low B factor, was meaningless on mobs with a low A and high B, and even of mobs with a balanced A and B. On top of that, Defensive discipline offered a straigth and non random damage reduction that would guarantee no other tank but warriors could correctly mitigate Vulak's damage.

    In this design, only HP are worthy, only raw damage reductions are worthy, AC and avoidance are useless, self heals are useless.

    That's what EQ had as a design for a long time, and most MMO's copied to make an artifical difficulty : You had to overgear your tank to even allow a full raid to attempt it.

     

    This wall of text was simply to elaborate my argumentation about how the line is frail between a proper boss design and an exagerated boss design, and how it wasn't "well thought" back in 1999 as MMO's were only sprouting.

    When tanks are designed with strength different on the field and a different way to soak damage, you are on the edge of balancing every encounter to make them viable for every tank, and every heal, and everyone. It's a hard work, but it's the only way to offer different tanks that are more than just iron walls.