Cool story, but I'm pretty sure VR shouldn't pace Pantheon for people who find duo 3-boxing slow. No offense intended, but I'd rather encounters were tough and involving enough that 2-boxing is too difficult and that downtime is a necessity.
So we should just ignore his opinion? He likes to play the game different than you, so his opinion shouldn't matter to VR? Why does every single pull need to be so difficult that it requires puller/CC/lull? As I said in my above post, there is no reason there shouldn't be different levels of complexity to every pull. But that doesn't mean that we should need every class in a group to just clear a leveling camp.
For that matter we shouldn't even need *groups* or even partners in many areas.
While dungeons may all be group content much of landscape will be soloable at level.
VR has repeatedly confirmed that although the focus of the game will be on grouping there will also be significant soloable content so that they can also attract people that prefer to play around solo (one of whom I have been married to for almost 50 years - just won't play if joining groups is mandatory to gain levels) or that don't have enough uninterrupted time that day to group. Or that aren't in the mood that day.
No class should be the ultimate puller. Though some classes should have the tools to pull well in particular situations in other situations their tools should be inadaquate. And pulling should not necessarily be the norm if your group is actually dungeon crawling. I hope that dungeon crawling is just as supported as camping. In fact i hope camping is not the norm just in particular areas while you clear safely before moving deeper into the dungeon.
While dungeon crawling a sneaky scout may be necessary to avoid a situation where your tank walks into a room which could end up bringing multiple pulls which would overpower the group. In these situations a skilled puller may be necessary to pull groups out of the room. Each situations should be different dependent on what type of monsters/creatures your dealing with. Sometimes crowd control my be your best puller for the situation other times ranged may be your best option. others times just a agro pull might be your best option and at times perhaps feign death if the creatures do not eat meat or are unintelligent enough to believe the monk is actually dead.
Feign death is one of those abilities which brings stupid to an mmo. Ohh you feign death and a highly intelligent group of dark elves chasing you just decide to go back to their spawn without actually checking your actually dead....Ie sticking you with pointy objects into the back of your neck severing your spine! Or that hungry Minotaur decides to go back to his spawn instead of gorging on your flesh! Or that carrion crawler deciding not to make a meal out of you! Now if said monk jumped off a ledge and feigned death at the bottom of a gorge or deep trench in a dungeon i could see intelligent humanoids looking down and saying yup he be dead lets go home or hungry critters that do not climb well or fly to wander back to its lair.
So who should be the most likely pullers for a group that is camping? It should be highly situational but in general any off tank including the monk, bard, ranger, shaman, druid, enchanter and pet class.
So who should be a the best scout for a group? Rogue, magical type with the right spells (invisible, silence, fly/levitate, mask odor, true sight), Outdoor settings ranger, druid and shaman.
TeufelHunden1142 said:Cool story, but I'm pretty sure VR shouldn't pace Pantheon for people who find duo 3-boxing slow. No offense intended, but I'd rather encounters were tough and involving enough that 2-boxing is too difficult and that downtime is a necessity
So we should just ignore his opinion? He likes to play the game different than you, so his opinion shouldn't matter to VR? Why does every single pull need to be so difficult that it requires puller/CC/lull? As I said in my above post, there is no reason there shouldn't be different levels of complexity to every pull. But that doesn't mean that we should need every class in a group to just clear a leveling camp.
I was responding to comments about the pace of EQ pulling being, apparently, "ridiculously slow". Regards designing pulling pace to be an implied 'much faster than EQ' for the kind of folks that multi-box with supposed ease, yeah I would hope VR would pretty much ignore those extreme examples and keep the pace down and design for regular players.
Thankfully they regularly make comments about wanting a slow pace and regular down time - they stressed it even in the most recent stream.
And I didn't suggest anything like every pull requiring every class, in fact earlier I suggested it would be nice if all classes had different methods of pulling, though some might be more effective than others depending on the situation and encounter.
Having said that, it would be nice if it did require some group cooperation, yes. In EQ you could see a Monk pull several then Feign Death near-ish the group. A stealthed thief would throw a dagger in the back of the nearest as the rest turn away and the tank would peel the aggro off the thief.
That kind of cooperation does indeed make the game better, yes, but there should be multiple possibilities depending on the make up of the group.
Cynwulf said: Ohh you feign death and a highly intelligent group of dark elves chasing you just decide to go back to their spawn without actually checking your actually dead
This is a world with Magic. Couldn't Feign Death be magical in some way that overides their desire to check? Like a Jedi mind trick... "This is not the Monk you are looking for..."
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Cynwulf said: Ohh you feign death and a highly intelligent group of dark elves chasing you just decide to go back to their spawn without actually checking your actually dead
This is a world with Magic. Couldn't Feign Death be magical in some way that overides their desire to check? Like a Jedi mind trick... "This is not the Monk you are looking for..."
Exactly. It's funny how apparently some things fantasy things are totally sensible, but others are not.
In the more classic mmos I've played, the tank generally did the pulling, and this would still be my first choice, since he or she ends up taking the hits anyway. Giving the tank a fairly long-ish range taunt definitely helps with this.
It's also possible to have the CC class pull by mezzing one mob, and then the tank can grab aggro on the next one that comes for the group. This works especially well if one or more mobs is a caster. Mez the caster and the melee mobs will come running right at you.
Also, a ranged class like Ranger can pull with a projectile and the tank can (hopefully) peel aggro off before the mob reaches the group.
It all depends on class makeup and the specific area being explored. Again, however, my first choice would be for the main tank to be puller in most cases.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Cynwulf said: Ohh you feign death and a highly intelligent group of dark elves chasing you just decide to go back to their spawn without actually checking your actually dead
This is a world with Magic. Couldn't Feign Death be magical in some way that overides their desire to check? Like a Jedi mind trick... "This is not the Monk you are looking for..."
The point is not that it might not work in that way but that the ability works against everything in the same way. I did give three very different situations. Make it so pulling techniques work in certain situations and not so well in others. As long as groups need to figure out what works and does not. In some situations FD should be great in others perhaps mez is your best option other a ranged attack in others passive aggro.
The need for a puller class depends entirely on how effective your crowd control is. If your support/CC class (ie Enchanter or Bard) are able to keep 7-10 mobs CC'd easily and do so quickly as they run into the group, then there won't be much need for a 'puller' class. Since the tank can just pull and let the CC'ers sort it out.
If on the other hand CC is more difficult and dangerous and things get difficult if there is more than 2 or 3 extra enemies, then it will mean a class that can split up larger groups of mobs will be needed.
This also is effected by how big groups of enemies are going to be. If you're never going to see more than 4 enemies together in a spot, then again it may not require a dedicated puller class. But if VR puts 10+ enemies in a room together, then you might need a dedicated puller class who can split those up.
So it really comes down to how VR decides to balance these kinds of things. There are other ways they could effect this as well such as balancing things so you can pull large groups of mobs and AoE them down. I don't think they will do this because it means tanks can survive big groups of mobs, which means single mobs will be a cakewalk.
Also... don't forget the fact that some enemies might be totally immune to Crowd Control. Especially named mobs and even their guards. And some enemies might have the ability to purge/cleanse/dispell crowd control off each other.
Just for reference... in EQ1 it was quite common for enchanters to be able to keep 6 mobs Mez'd for quite a while, and yet it was still pretty important to have a Monk or Bard who could split pull most of the time.
Cynwulf said: Make it so pulling techniques work in certain situations and not so well in others.
There is only 2 sure ways to make pulling techniques not work for specific situations. 1) Make enemies be linked so that once you engage 1 the other will agro no matter how far they are apart, so even if he's on the other side of the zone (quantum entanglement). 2) Make some enemies who are totally immune to the agro dump ability (ie Feign Death).
In my opinion I hate both of these tactics, but if VR decides to go with one or both of them I guess we will just need to adapt.
i think some of you are more into hack and slash mechanics also known as zerg mechanics, i can see that mechanic being part of the game, but realistically every encounter cannot be like that, that creates a sloppy mess, its like listening to heavy metal versus beehtoven, one is barely articulate, the other majorly, its like mike tyson comapred to Ali, ones a brute, the other a dancer, really the main focus here should be ROLE>Everything else, RPG -> Role Playing Game -- Change my mind XD, your visions are not of DnD, are not of any Role base system at all, you think your roles are all roles which means there are no roles. folla me?
Let the ranger snare pull.
If there are only 2 mobs, the fastest one will be intercepted by the tank, and the snared one will be mezzed by the enchanter half way.
If there are 3 mobs, the enchanter will intercept the fastest one (and later mez the snared one), and the second fastest one will be intercepted by the tank.
If there are 4 mobs, let the ranger die.
well pulling wise firstly the tank with their bows or crossbows or just body pulling lol, but if you wanna split mobs monk is good but any cc spell can help split if it had range. Pulling can be done by anyone that have range lol even if it is accidental and group wipes :)
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Cynwulf said: Make it so pulling techniques work in certain situations and not so well in others.
There is only 2 sure ways to make pulling techniques not work for specific situations. 1) Make enemies be linked so that once you engage 1 the other will agro no matter how far they are apart, so even if he's on the other side of the zone (quantum entanglement). 2) Make some enemies who are totally immune to the agro dump ability (ie Feign Death).
In my opinion I hate both of these tactics, but if VR decides to go with one or both of them I guess we will just need to adapt.
Monster type Alfa- high resistance to mez, eats live prey, calls for help when attacked etc etc... FD would be great for pulling Monster type Alpha.
Monster type Bravo- eats dead things, low resistance to mez, calls for help when attacked. Your mezzer would be the best choice here.
Monster type Charlie- eats dead things, high resistance to mez, does not call for help when attacked. A ranged puller might be your best bet with this type of monster.
It gets more complex the more types which may be within a group of mobs. Where multiple pullers might be your best bet or just send in the tank!
bobwinner said:Let the ranger snare pull.
If there are only 2 mobs, the fastest one will be intercepted by the tank, and the snared one will be mezzed by the enchanter half way.
If there are 3 mobs, the enchanter will intercept the fastest one (and later mez the snared one), and the second fastest one will be intercepted by the tank.
If there are 4 mobs, let the ranger die.
Snare pulling is a great strat. People hate monks(or associate FD with them more closely) but SKs were the best pullers in most situations. Pull Myconid Spore King group. FD. Snare King. FD. Profit.
GoofyWarriorGuy said:Cynwulf said: Make it so pulling techniques work in certain situations and not so well in others.
There is only 2 sure ways to make pulling techniques not work for specific situations. 1) Make enemies be linked so that once you engage 1 the other will agro no matter how far they are apart, so even if he's on the other side of the zone (quantum entanglement). 2) Make some enemies who are totally immune to the agro dump ability (ie Feign Death).
In my opinion I hate both of these tactics, but if VR decides to go with one or both of them I guess we will just need to adapt.
I quite like the possibility for those 'dispositions'. Some monsters might be 'Buddies' and always stick together with higher chance to break mez or lull or whatever if the other is aggroed. Some monsters might be 'Hot-tempered' so effecting their hate list with abilities is tougher.
As long as my /consider idea is used and you get a "it looks lovingly at its buddies" or a "it looks really irritable" in the /con message then you have a chance to know how the pull might go in advance.
Servirus said:well pulling wise firstly the tank with their bows or crossbows or just body pulling lol, but if you wanna split mobs monk is good but any cc spell can help split if it had range. Pulling can be done by anyone that have range lol even if it is accidental and group wipes :)
As Cynwulf mentioned, it's not that straightforward.
Typically, when an enemy is harmed/damaged, they immediately call for help. This is why proximity or body pulling is a thing. You just get one, because only one is alerted or notices you. If you tag that one with an arrow, it is harmed, calls for social help, and you get 5.
There aren't that many variables to this equation, but as players, you need to know a few things: Is social aggro a thing for all peer races/types? What that question means is: If I tag an undead, animal, or humanoid, will all other undead, animals or humanoids within x meters of that tag location going to come running? If the answer is yes, 100% of the time, then we're back to Pantheon: Rise of the Monks, because guaranteeing non stop singles is the path to glory, and no-one does it better than a Monk except a Bard, which we haven't seen yet.
If the answer is no, then what you've outlined, Servirus, would of course be trivially easy to do. Any ranged attack would pull a single. Yet, that's not what EQ1 was, and not even what Project Gorgon is, today. Social aggro is a big deal and can make the difference between wiping or not. Lull, Pacify, Soothe and so on are options, there's no doubt, but again, we are in the dark about how these may or may not be used in Pantheon, but one thing is certain: It will take longer, typically, than the Monk would, so people will be less likely to do it.
Personally? Given the choice between Monk pulling and EQ2 linked encounters? I'll take EQ2 linked encounters any day. At least that way, designers can design encounters to be challenging, and all the Quaternity roles/classes are required.
These details are extremely important to how the game plays, and so far, the Monk is king, given what has been demonstrated. But this is why, years ago, I suggested luring, tempting, distracting mechanics (for many/any classes/roles/crafters) and got zero traction. It adds so much more to the game than just sitting on your ass waiting for the Monk to pull more. But whatever, it's their time/money/game to do with as they wish. :|
disposalist said:GoofyWarriorGuy said:Cynwulf said: Ohh you feign death and a highly intelligent group of dark elves chasing you just decide to go back to their spawn without actually checking your actually dead
This is a world with Magic. Couldn't Feign Death be magical in some way that overides their desire to check? Like a Jedi mind trick... "This is not the Monk you are looking for..."
Exactly. It's funny how apparently some things fantasy things are totally sensible, but others are not.
There is also the chance in that same magical world that some creatures could see right through this ruse. Perhaps a magical creature can sense the Monk's life force, despite their best abilities to slow their heart beat? Or a seasoned soldier taking a stab, just in case you are faking it?
I think both arguments have potentially wonderful applications to change what the "best" pulling class is depending on what you are pulling, group size and composition, overall level (of each "role" in the group, have a lower level tank or healer compared to the content can have huge effects if you only have one of each - also Pantheon allows for multple healers or tanks, which changes quite a bit), active abilities or spells chosen (including upgraded skills and their overlap with other abilities), resistances, etc..
From the current info and videos, it appears some classes will be better than others, in certain situations, at pulling mobs than others, and its my personal opinion that this is the way it should be if we all want non-cookie cutter classes to fit the roles required to experience content.
I'd be super interested to see if the disposition system has any effect on something like Feign Death, or how aggro works.
Keep it up VR, and stay classy!
Squirlypete said:There is also the chance in that same magical world that some creatures could see right through this ruse.
I'd be super interested to see if the disposition system has any effect on something like Feign Death, or how aggro works.
Hi Squirlypete, welcome to the forums.
You're quite right about this. We don't know all the Dispostions at present, but we do know that there is a 'Truesight' disposition that is likely to see thru most - or maybe all - Feign Death and Stealth. There is also a 'Cunning' disposition that might have some similar ability, perhaps to a lesser degree.
Squirlypete said:disposalist said:GoofyWarriorGuy said:Cynwulf said: Ohh you feign death and a highly intelligent group of dark elves chasing you just decide to go back to their spawn without actually checking your actually dead
This is a world with Magic. Couldn't Feign Death be magical in some way that overides their desire to check? Like a Jedi mind trick... "This is not the Monk you are looking for..."
Exactly. It's funny how apparently some things fantasy things are totally sensible, but others are not.
[...] Perhaps a magical creature can sense the Monk's life force, despite their best abilities to slow their heart beat?
[...]
I'd be super interested to see if the disposition system has any effect on something like Feign Death, or how aggro works.
Keep it up VR, and stay classy!
walk without rythym, and you wont attract the wurm. We remembered as suddenly we got paralyzed upon entering for we were not acclimated. However the shaman was ready and thrust us into empathetic statis after slicing our wrists upon our acceptance of his duel- we had to show sacrifice he said to understand the spell called "the enemy of my enemy is my friend".Like a Kabuki quick-change magician the gnome rogue swaped his mask to one communicating silence for he could not speak. The clue from the legend had the pin ready in his hand as the shaman finished his rite and we sighed in fatigue and weakness as our health and stamina and all that made us robust was cut in half and we were blind. Wether is was on purpose or from the rite the gnome dropped the pin although we didn't hear it. The only way I can explain is we saw its explosive reverberation like a ripple in still water, each ripple outlining every nook and cranny in that cavern to its lowest depths like brilliant flashes of outlined shapes in our minds as the pin struck the floor. The shaman's spell made us understand this is how the mass at the bottom perceived its environment. Being mindful and walking toe-heal like ballerina's even discarding most of our armor by reccomendation to not cause a rustle,we made our way down. The monk was well trained in tranquility but then we had to hold our breaths, the mass was just there as we waited for the monk. Would the mass ever turn! It made no sound but moved so fast, only the gnome was quick enough to gain favorable positon and we knew, that moment the mass moved was when the monks heart beat, once.