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Community Debate - Who should pull mobs for the group?

    • Moderator
    • 8520 posts
    August 6, 2018 3:57 AM PDT

    Community Debate - Who should pull mobs for the group if there is no dedicated pulling class - Crowd Control, DPS with aggro drop ability (Smoke bomb, FD etc.), the main tank or another option? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    • 871 posts
    August 6, 2018 4:30 AM PDT

    If there is no dedicated pulling class in the game, which I don't think there should be, then the tank makes the most sense as they can take the hits without being healed while CC locks down the non primary targets.  

    Having tools to pull mobs out of groups without needing to deal with the rest of the group simplifies the game too much and ruins encounter design.  Having packs of complementary mobs linked together in such a way that they have to be dealt with together can massively increase the intergroup dependence as there is no real way for soloists to engage them.  Increasing the difficulty by increasing the number of mobs in the pack will also be a good way to balance increased experience, tie in environmental effects, and special loot opportunities.  For good measure would also have them respawn as a group and not precisely timed on order of death.

    This is all coming from 8 years as a primary monk player.

    • 508 posts
    August 6, 2018 4:55 AM PDT

    In the past, I think we've relied too heavily on the monk as puller.   That said, it's always fun to watch a skilled monk split a mob from a group.  I agree with Trasak though in that it shouldn't be trivial to pull single mobs.  You definitely should make it so it requires coordination between several players to accomplish this feat.

    A well-played enchanter is an awesome puller for a group.   Mez pulling is a great technique, often ignored.   Your CC member probably can run off to pull when the tank engages the last mob.   The downside to this combo could be mana management - depending on mechanics and judicious use of spells and skill of the player.

    Ditto for bards - great traditional EQ pulling class.

    Any ranged DPS class can pull with arrows or small nukes or minor debuffs, making it easy for a tank to grab aggro.   Pulling with small spells is extremely mana efficient and reduces downtime.

    The group's main tank is the LAST person I want to see as my group's puller.  While the group beats down the last mob, the puller should be arriving with the next mob or group of mobs to be slain.

     


    This post was edited by Celandor at August 6, 2018 5:00 AM PDT
    • 716 posts
    August 6, 2018 5:46 AM PDT

    Should always be the tank.  If adds come, it's the CC's responability.  If two adds come, it's the MA's responsability.  The tank pulls and keeps target on his first pull.  Tanks who switch around and try to do too much are bad tank.  Everyone has a role in the group and everyone should trust everyone to do their job.

    • 1063 posts
    August 6, 2018 5:48 AM PDT

    When you say "pull" you really mean "split"?  Anyone can run at a group of monsters and then run back to the group!...

    Monk was indeed too relied upon in tough situations (which was most in all the fun places) in EQ.  Playing a Monk a couple years ago on P99 was exhausting and relentless *BUT* more recently had a big complication/annoyance that they, for some reason, disabled the best bit of monk pulling which was being able to pull several - feign - sneak - stand when all but one had turned to leave and throw a shuriken to pull just the nearest.

    When that was removed, pulling with a Monk was almost pointless aside from being able to abort by Feigning.  That was painful too, though, as you had to wait for monsters to stand around deciding you were dead and then for all of them to walk slowing back to their spawn (if you stood up before that they all came rushing back because sneaking while feigned didn't remove aggro anymore as above).  A very slow and unpopular activity.

    So, all that ramble is to say - please don't make Monk pulling painful, *BUT* please don't make them the best (and so 99% used) option.

    I love to see lulls, charms, mezzes, roots, etc being in the mix and viable options depending on the situation.  It would be nice to see situations where all the options shine and where any can be used at a pinch even if not ideal.

    I think in P99 they nerfed the Monk stealth pull because it became the de facto group splitter, but to ruin it completely just removed half the point of the Monk.

    Tricky...

    • 3086 posts
    August 6, 2018 6:19 AM PDT

    It's all situational.  I think rogues/monks will make for excellent splitters due to their aggro drop ability.  Other classes will be able to lull which will allow for improved proximity pulls.  Rangers should be good at tracking and pulling mobs from afar to their camp.  Tanks should be able to handle pulling if they're crawling a dungeon or if the mobs aren't too far out from camp.  Crowd Control seems like something that should be applied during the pull when mobs otherwise cannot be split.

    • 43 posts
    August 6, 2018 6:35 AM PDT

    I'm very much use to the main tank pulling, or even an off tank if there is one. I'm not opposed to having someone else pull, but it's something I'll definitely have to get use to if that becomes the meta. When I make/play my tank class, I plan on pulling most of the time (except in unique situations, as 187 pointed out) soley because that's what I'm comfortable with; I know how to keep the XP flowing as a tank. But it will all depend on how everything is structured. :)

    • 241 posts
    August 6, 2018 6:42 AM PDT
    When a dedicated pulling class is not in your group you let the most experienced person pull. A good puller can pull with any class but certain classes make it much easier. You want a person pulling that will keep your group alive while getting good steady experience.
    • 601 posts
    August 6, 2018 6:42 AM PDT

    Whoever is best at it.

    I don't hink there should be thoughts on "who should or must do anything"

     

    I used to pull as a Druid - I would track, find, pacify and snare a mob, then root it in front of our tank.   

    I used to pull with an enchanter by lulling, then weakening and stacking up mezzed mobs in front of our tank.

    I used to pet-pull with my Mage and bring mobs to our tank.

    I pulled as a Rogue with a poisoned backstab to get damage and a DOT on the mob then run to the tank and evade.

     

    This brings up what I think is a really important aspect of the discussion:

    I think there needs to be enough creative flexibility so that things aren't only done "one way".  Let the players figure out innovative ways to do things.  Swarm kiting......pet pulling......root rotting.....fear kiting.....these were all unintended (or unforseen) strategies that payers created given the tools they had.  

     

    Don't constrain the playstyle.

     

    • 23 posts
    August 6, 2018 6:46 AM PDT
    Lol monk...bard was the ultimate puller. I could go up to a pack deep dungeon and run just one mob to my group...how? Lull one, Mez another, as the group charges, snare, highsun another, as more mobs pick up - I could charm one and let him get beat on while stunning another. If anymore got to hot to trot I could rinse and repeat my tactics until there was just one mob left which I could then fading memories and snare, slow, mez Park like a tidy package for my tank to PULL even though the mob was like sitting in his lap. The Bard was the ultimate puller. As a quick spot buffer I could do deep recon swimming, seeing invis, invis, levitating, and running at high speeds. During raids, my bard worked closely with rogues and monks to pull targets to the raid. Bard was a pulling class if there ever was one and all the others like the SK, monk etc just had abilities that were acceptable for pulling.
    • 1065 posts
    August 6, 2018 7:47 AM PDT

    In Pantheon, with what has been shown to date? The Monk should always pull.  Mostly because as demonstrated, it ~never fails, has a less than 10 second re-use timer, doesn't cost anything (like the rogue consumables), and guarantees a steady stream of singles.

    If you're asking in a larger philosophical context?  Encounters should be linked so that crowd control classes (one of the quaternity) are actually required, as much as dps, tanking, and heals.  Otherwise, the Monk is doing all the "CC" up front (or making it not required) by using FD to pull.

    I've said it before, and I'll say it again, FD as demonstrated so far is a toxic social tool, can be used to trivially bypass content, is superior to sneak, hide, mez, lull, invis, all of that and removes the need for CC classes entirely.  Why you're continuing to push it as is, I'll never know.

    Change the re-use timer on FD to 30 or 45 minutes, and/or make every mob on the hate list critically hit the Monk once after they FD, and/or snare the puller by 10% per mob on the hate list, and state that publicly as a launch goal, and we can have a different discussion.  But as it is now, the monk is god.  It can do everything except heal the group, but can heal itself.  What more do you want in a class?  Pantheon: Rise of the Monks. :)

    If encounters are going to be changed to be linked, then sure, have the main tank pull.  Or a bard.  But we haven't seen bard yet, so that's a big unknown. 

    tl;dr Having FD (as demonstrated to date) in your game at the same time as the Quaternity roles are polar opposite design goals.  FD eliminates the need for the crowd control role by guaranteeing single pulls.  It's fine, you can do whatever you want, it's your game; but it defies logic.


    This post was edited by vjek at August 6, 2018 7:53 AM PDT
    • 2333 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:00 AM PDT

    I think vjek is getting a little carried away, but I agree that feign death needs to be kept under control. It should be more of an emergency "oh crap" tool to let the monk survive rather than a routinely used pulling tool. No class should have this balance-wrecking a skill. Hmmmm maybe vjek wasn't getting too carried away after all.

    Tanks are the traditionally pulling class and I think Pantheon shouldn't give any other class abilities that make tank pulling irrelevant.

    The tank can survive the pull (in a good group without bad luck on the pull). The healer will know who to have targeted before the pull and who to cast any bubbles/wards on right before the pull. The crowd control types will know where the mobs are going and be ready to disable some of them. The dps can target through the tank on the same mob. Very traditional but why change it?

    Back to feign death - give it a percentage chance of failure. Make some mobs immune to it. 

    If I fall over and pretend, I am still going to breath and give off body heat. If I fall over and pretend any mob with intelligence above animal level will see the flop and just start laughing as it finishes me off.

    • 649 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:17 AM PDT

    I think it depends on the situation.

    - Some groups of mobs may need to start out with someone CCing one or more particularly dangerous ones while the party deals with the rest. At that point, I think the CCer would start out and the tank would grab threat on the rest and pull them away from the CCed mob.

    - For situations that don't require CC, the tank should be the one pulling. (Unless it's a group of friends messing with one another. Then anything goes! ;D)

    • 142 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:26 AM PDT
    Pull?? No need for that nonsense... Just run in and tank n spank! It's the healers fault if you all die anyways. ;-)
    If you don't have a Bard, Monk, or other pulling class... next would be a ranged pull or face pull by the tank. But that's situational. What if your outdoors fighting animals. The Ranger or Druid has an animal "lull" ability to reduce agro on target. I'd definitely have them use that ability. I believe the Cleric gets an undead lull as well. Have them lull and tank pulls 1-2. Safe and working as a team!
    • 142 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:27 AM PDT
    Could also root 1 or 2 group mobs that are melee and kill the one that comes running to group.
    • 1584 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:31 AM PDT

    That really depends of the tools and downtime necessary.

     

    What was good about the monk, was the fact he needed no downtime. When you were a SK , tanking and pulling, you would run OOM sooner or later withouth some Clarity and such. That unded beeing a major downside because you needed mana for Threat and pulls and you ended doing as little spells as possible to avoid running out.

     

    Tanks have usually no downtime, but if they rely on some long terme ressource, then they will have trouble doing everything at the same time.

    If a class has good tools for pulling, and better than a tank, why shouldn't they do it ? Un less they really need their downtime for ressources.

    • 1567 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:35 AM PDT

    Kilsin said:

    Community Debate - Who should pull mobs for the group if there is no dedicated pulling class - Crowd Control, DPS with aggro drop ability (Smoke bomb, FD etc.), the main tank or another option? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    This is wholly situation dependent.  If the Enchanter belives they can reliably mez one, let them do that and the tank and immediately aggro the other that goes after the Enchanter.  Or another class could root one which the Enchanter could then follow up with a mez.  Or, barring that, you let the tank body pull and maybe the path taken takes the aggroed mob immediately outside the assist radius of the other giving the group a single pull.

    • 1167 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:52 AM PDT

    Kittik said:

    Tanks who switch around and try to do too much are bad tank.

    I don't even know what to say in response to this...

    • 1167 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:56 AM PDT

    vjek said:

    Otherwise, the Monk is doing all the "CC" up front

    2 things.   1, splitting is a form of CC.

    2, monks weren't even the best pullers in eq1.  Bards were exponentially better at pulling group mobs. 

    I think you're embellishing quite a bit here. 

    • 1208 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:59 AM PDT

    I always found that hybrid or utility classes made the best stand-ins for pulling. Paladins pulling with a root to leave one parked long enough that the group was able to burn down the other before root on the first broke and it joined. Or a necro snaring then rooting one for the same effect and reapplying root periodically. Or a rogue sapping one to pull the other. Or even a chanter pulling with mez.

    There's a wealth of ways to go about things if you give the classes a good enough toolbox.


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at August 6, 2018 9:00 AM PDT
    • 398 posts
    August 6, 2018 9:12 AM PDT

    Situational as well as group make up. Generally speaking a tank should pull, but with that said a range could also pull if the mechanic allows and the tanks taunt is strong enough to rip it out of agro. Other than that a monk with feign or speedy druid could run in and out pulling a couple at a time. All based on situation...and the skill of the group as a whole.


    This post was edited by Bronsun at August 6, 2018 12:38 PM PDT
    • 121 posts
    August 6, 2018 10:05 AM PDT

    In risky situations I would say a class with aggro drop, but if it's a less risky and more grindy situation I'd says the most experienced person for the zone.

    I played a tank in EQ and pulled in nearly every zone from vanilla to Velious, including Fear, Hate, ToV, PoV, lower Sebillis, Chardok, only avoiding certain specific pulls where split was required.

    I've known good pullers from every class existing in game, so I guess its is more a matter of knowing how to play with aggro zones, angles, and mastering its own skills. 

    • 432 posts
    August 6, 2018 10:14 AM PDT

    Pets :)

    • 264 posts
    August 6, 2018 10:54 AM PDT

    It does not matter to me as long as the puller is doing his role correctly. Main tank, and enchanter would make sense. Perhaps even other classes if their abilities let them. 

    • 85 posts
    August 6, 2018 10:59 AM PDT

    Anybody can pull, it just takes a little it bit of experience. Splitting etc is different.