Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Leveling, Quests, Story, and Community

    • 313 posts
    August 5, 2018 10:53 PM PDT

    There was a post on reddit the other day that was indicative of how one-dimensional most modern MMO’s are when it comes to delivering content.  Here’s the quote:

    It does kind of baffle the mind when people complain about the monotony of standard [questing], but then love killing 100,000 of something to level. I’m excited about this game, but I’m not super jazzed about that being the main way. When do you learn about the lore?

    As someone who has strong negative opinions about wow-style leveling, my first reaction was to look down on this person for not embracing “the grind” and to scoff at their ignorance of the alternatives to quest-driven story.  But this person’s attitude likely reflects a very large number of potential players.  Getting those players on board will involve demonstrating the answer to the following two questions:

    1)      How do you make leveling fun without relying on quests?

    2)      How do you allow players to experience the story/lore of the game in a fun/engaging manner that makes them feel like part of a living, breathing world? 

    For this post, I’m going to focus on answering #2 because I think it’s much more interesting, although I may come back later and address #1.  Anyway, I care deeply about the lore and story of Pantheon-- reading the details about the races is what originally drove me to pledge.  But any game can tell a story.  What makes MMO’s unique is that they offer players the ability to experience a persistent, evolving online world along with thousands of other players.  Unfortunately, MMO’s often fail to capitalize on the opportunities that this affords them, opting instead to break the story down into personalized quests rather than communal events.   I feel like the same objections that people have to instancing apply to the over-use of personalized quests to deliver the game’s story. 

    Quests absolutely have a role to play in helping players experience the story in an MMO.  But they need to be a tool in the developer’s toolbox, not the entire focus of the game’s story.  Before going into this any further, I’d like to bring up two examples of events in other games that I find really fascinating.  The first is the one-time rocket event in Fortnite.  Here’s a couple of articles on the event:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2018/06/30/fortnites-insane-rocket-launch-may-be-the-greatest-collective-gaming-moment-in-history/

    https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/30/17521122/fortnite-rocket-launch-epic-games-dimensional-rift

    The TLDR- Fortnite teased a big event which turned out to be a giant rocket launching into space, then returning and blowing up, leaving what appeared to be a crack in space/time, and this rift in the world will likely factor into upcoming content updates for the game.  This was a one-time event that took place simultaneously for all fortnite players on all platforms. 

    Details of how Epic teased the launch: https://www.theverge.com/2018/6/29/17517894/fortnite-season-event-real-time-rocket-location

    The other event I want to bring up took place long ago in the MMO that I played originally, Asheron’s Call.  The event was called The Shard of the Herald.  You may have seen it on various lists of famous events/incidents in MMO history.  Basically through their monthly updates, Turbine gave players hints that an evil power was being held in check by these living crystals.  Eventually the crystals were discovered (as the areas they resided in were released), and quickly players destroyed them.  This was expected, not just because players are naturally going to kill things if they can, but because doing so yielded powerful, unique (as in unique to the server) rewards.  Consequences be damned!  The final crystal to be discovered was the Shard of the Herald, and once again players quickly destroyed it, unleashing Bael’zharon from his imprisonment… except on one server.  Players on Thistledown mounted a coordinated defense of the last crystal, taking advantage of the fact that it was located in a PVP area (and an exploit for accessing the dungeon quickly) and by letting the crystal kill them to level it up (npc's could level in AC).  Ultimately, GM’s intervened to assist in the cyrstal's destruction and keep the lore of all realms consistent.  Andrew Ross from Massively OP put together a fantastic 2 part exploration of the event that goes into a ton of detail including all the lore and developments that led up to the Shard of the Herald as well as the details of how the defenders pulled off their feat.  It’s long, but very worth it IMO.  Here’s the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ml_F4XJ3UUw

    While it was groundbreaking and exciting (especially for its time), the execution of these live events in Asheron’s Call wasn’t without its flaws.  One of the major failings that Andrew points out was that the main way that players were expected to discover information involved reading in-game books and text.  It was very easy for players to miss important cues and end up being out of the loop as far as the lore developments went.  

    With all that being said, lets get to the point-- what should the role of quests be in terms of story?  IMO quests should help players follow the bread crumbs leading to the major events that change the world.  Often times these major events should take place as a singular or series of events in the world.  Perception triggers can be used to start the breadcrumb trail.  I love the idea that you can just go start exploring, and the perception system gives you a nudge in the right direction as you approach important points of interest.  Those initial hints can then snowball into quests that develop the story.  And as the story (or multiple stories) build up to a climax, the major world events take place.  Whether events are automated or GM controlled or a combination, those events can be some of the most memorable for players. 

    Beyond the benefits of players simply experiencing these events together, players might have the opportunity to earn server-unique rewards (cosmetic or otherwise).  Yes, it’s nice to have certain players walking around in sweet looking raid gear that makes everyone jealous.  But it’s even better to have everyone know THE guy that got the Staff of Malice from the villain when he was finally defeated.  Those are the kinds of shared experiences that communities develop their identity around. 

    Sure, there are plenty of challenges to doing live events well in an MMO.  But the effort is well worth it in my opinion.  Just look at the reception to Fortnite’s rocket event and how almost 20 years after Asheron’s Call’s Shard of the Herald, people are still talking about it.  When I read the lore surrounding Terminus and the various races that live there, I can’t help but think about how VR has the opportunity to truly evolve the way MMO’s deliver content and blow minds in the process. 


    This post was edited by zoltar at August 6, 2018 8:08 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    August 6, 2018 8:18 AM PDT

    Zoltar I agree with the great bulk of what you say.

    But I also agree with the person you quoted at the top of your post. 

    Just going somewhere and killing mobs in huge quantity for hour after hour to get a small amount of experience per kill *is* mind-numbing.

    Killing mobs with no reason other than they give 2xp per kill just focuses on the selfish "how can I gain levels as fast as possible?" approach even if it means killing endless orcs just because they are a different race that never did you or your friends any harm - or killing deer in enormous numbers because depopulating the forest is "the way to go". Far better IMO to have a reason - a local farmer is having her crops destroyed by dear and the locals are starving. The orcs are killing the locals and stealing and eating their children. 

    Frankly I prefer quests to grinding (yes a quest can tell me to grind - kill 500 pigs - that is better than just killing the 500 with no reason).

    To be old school Pantheon needs to be slower. Quests should not let you level fast or give such good gear that no one needs to do anything *but* quest. But grinding should not let us level fast either. Since quests should give less xp pure grinding should be a perfectly competitive way to go. We should be able to progress whichever way we prefer.

    I agree with the consensus that quests in current MMOs are too important - give too much - speed things up too much. But let's not toss the baby with the bathwater. Quests are great for telling stories, guiding us to interesting areas, and being less monotonous than genocide toward deer or pigs or orcs.


    This post was edited by dorotea at August 6, 2018 8:19 AM PDT
    • 313 posts
    August 6, 2018 9:03 AM PDT

    Thanks for the well though out response.  It seems like you're basically saying that the game should have quest-leveling and mob-grind leveling such that players can go their perferred route.  I think there's some merit to this idea, but I would far prefer that the game's focus for leveling be on grinding mobs with questing opportunities peppered in throughout the game.  There's always a trade off in terms of quality and quantitiy.  By trying to meet the expectation that every zone is chocked full of questing opportunities, you end up with so much low-quality, "filler" quests that the value quests provide in terms of breaking up the monotony is completely stripped away.  Also, it takes away from the feeling that the game is about YOUR adventures and instead it feels like you're just an errand boy for every two-bit local Joe. 

    Again, I'm not completely against questing.  It's a valuable tool for exposing players to important lore in the game (I'm not talking about running around trying to figure out who stole Bessie's cherry pie).  To that end, there's really no need for an experience reward.  The story is largely its own reward, but these quests can also provide experience for your perception skill.  Also, I'm a huge fan of quests that are long-term adentures involving multiple types of content (farming rare drops, running dungeons, crafting, adventuring, etc) that lead to the aquisition of a powerful unique weapon.  I know everquest had a number of class-based "epic quests" and possibly other similar quests that weren't class-based.  Asheron's Call was full of these types of quests, and they were a huge part of what made the game fun.

     

    Also, remember that when you're leveling you shouldn't expect the experience to be a mindless-grind.  The challenging combat, punishing penalties for dying, social interaction, and variation through AI and dynamic zones are all designed to keep the leveling experience enjoyable.  The one aspect that I'm not sure VR is adequately addressing is the reward (loot), and I may say more about that at some point.


    This post was edited by zoltar at August 6, 2018 9:08 AM PDT
    • 646 posts
    August 6, 2018 9:32 AM PDT

    I cannot stand mindless mob farming for XP. It's ridiculously boring and tedious, no matter how challenging the mobs themselves are. Quests - even the most uninspired "collect ten bear butts" ones - at least give me some story to read and break up the monotony through the process of picking up the quest, carrying it out, and then traveling wherever to turn it in.

    Pantheon would do well to include BOTH paths for leveling.

    • 313 posts
    August 6, 2018 9:49 AM PDT

    To use an analogy, quests could be like the desert you eat at the end of a great meal.  But the idea of making questing a completely path for leveling is like saying I want to only eat dessert.  It sounds good in theory, but then you realize you can't afford nice deserts all the time, so instead you just eat pure sugar.  I'd rather eat a balanced meal than a bowl full of sugar.

    • 646 posts
    August 6, 2018 9:50 AM PDT

    To extend the analogy, I find grinding mobs for XP to be the equivalent of eating anti-freeze. Not made for human consumption.

    [edit] Okay, perhaps a bit harsh. How about sour milk, or bread that had some mold spots, or that leftover dish that's been in the fridge for a time you know is more than a week but less than a month. It probably won't kill you, but it's not a pleasant experience by any means, nor would one consider it part of a balanced diet. I would tolerate it if, say, my pantry happened to be completely empty and I knew that eating the moldy bread was just getting me through this one day until tomorrow when I could get to the grocery store and stock up again.


    This post was edited by Naunet at August 6, 2018 9:52 AM PDT
    • 768 posts
    December 12, 2018 1:13 AM PST

    zoltar said:

    There was a post on reddit the other day that was indicative of how one-dimensional most modern MMO’s are when it comes to delivering content.  Here’s the quote:

    It does kind of baffle the mind when people complain about the monotony of standard [questing], but then love killing 100,000 of something to level. I’m excited about this game, but I’m not super jazzed about that being the main way. When do you learn about the lore?

    2)      How do you allow players to experience the story/lore of the game in a fun/engaging manner that makes them feel like part of a living, breathing world?

     

    I really enjoy how this next fellow has explained it. It seems in line with how Pantheon would feel. Although they might not put such a restriction on amount of quests.

    EXTRA CREDITS  S8 • E4

    Quest Design - II: How to Create Interesting MMO and RPG Quests - Extra Credits

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur6GQp5mCYs

    • 1785 posts
    December 12, 2018 8:31 AM PST

    zoltar said:

    1)      How do you make leveling fun without relying on quests?

    2)      How do you allow players to experience the story/lore of the game in a fun/engaging manner that makes them feel like part of a living, breathing world? 

    Thanks Zoltar for an excellent thread btw :)  I wanted to throw some quick thoughts out there for folks to think about.

    Neph's answers to the two questions:

    1) Make it so leveling is NOT the point.  Give players lots of other goals that they need to work on by engaging with the world, such as acquiring skills/spells, building faction, or getting drops, and then set things up so that leveling naturally occurs while players are working on all those other goals they have.  Depending on your perspective this might sound easy or hard to do - but key to it is the concept of getting players away from just having one monolithic goal to pursue (levels) and insuring that they always have multiple things they need/want to work on.

    2) I don't think you can get away from the idea of quests completely, nor should you.  But the perception system, where players find things organically during gameplay, goes a long way here.  I also think it's possible to tell the story of the world via many different methods.  For example, if you're in Thronefast city, you might overhear bits of conversation between NPCs who are worried about the increasing number of bandits in the countryside, and what is the queen doing about it?  If you're out in the countryside you may encounter the bandits, or the guards that are trying to keep the bandits at bay.  If you are in the bandit camp, you might notice evidence that the bandits seem to be getting supplies from somewhere.  If you're in the right place at the right time you might notice a shady courier meeting with the bandits.  If you follow that courier he might lead you to somewhere unexpected.  And all of this can be done through visual clues and NPC behavior in the world - no quest dialogs required.  Obviously, doing things this way means that some players might miss some of this stuff - but that's ok.  After all, it's not the player's story.  It's the world's story. 

    • 6 posts
    December 12, 2018 9:52 AM PST

    I completely agree with Neph's #1, I very much enjoyed having to farm for spells vs buying them at a vendor or having them just given to me when I levelled.  Some spells are more rare than others, etc.  Farming for crafting mats vs buying them from a vendor.  I'm an old EQ1 player and loved how EQ did those things.  Remember when there were camps?  There was a level of respect (or disrespect) between players.  Camp checks, rares popping, everyone seemed to work together until one bonehead trained everyone and it was mass genocide of players.  Still, fun times.  I can see how grinding to level, farming mats, etc may seem horrific to some but it was challening and everyone had goals.  I miss that challenge as other games are just so dumbed down, it takes no skill.  People no longer use CC to defeat a group, it's a zerg fest and if people die, the healer gets screamed at. 

    I would love to see quests for item enhancements or items themselves ie:Shield of Bane Warding, augment stones and so on.  There was a 40 something page questline for an augment stone, it took forever but it was a challenge.  I LOVED the epic quests, I still hate Chardok with a passion because of the Cleric epic but the elation I felt when I finally got my Water Sprinkler of Nem Ankh...  I still get goosebumps.  I love seeing puzzles, having to figure things out.  Not the way WOW does it, talk to and NPC and answer questions but actually figure out the puzzles using the lore and what you learn in the world.  I would also like to see the ability to fail combinations when crafting.  I thought the quests for the trophies to increase chance of success was a fabulous idea, but again was a long quest and had to be done for each profession.

    Dorotea made a good point about slower levelling, I feel that a level 20 at a slow pace is worth so much more than 6 120s that you can get in a week with xp pots, xp, gems, heirlooms, etc.

    I have such high hopes for Pantheon, I'm super excited to see what will happen with this game.  I was in one of the top hardcore raiding guilds in EQ1 and while I no longer have the time to play like that, I'm chomping at the bit for a good game to play.

    • 1315 posts
    December 12, 2018 9:52 AM PST

    Kill Exp vs Quest Exp vs Skill Challenge Exp  is one of the challenges in converting Gygaxian Adventure games from pen and paper into a digital game without an active game master, especially in a persistent MMO world.

    It is very easy to make punching bags of exp that respawn quickly to fill the need for leveling experiences.  Quests on the other hand take a lot more time to write out and program.  Quests are also in theory story based and really only make sense to be done once.  Skill challenges are almost the hardest to create as they involve a combination of player ability, character ability and environmental opportunity.

    Level based games where character growth is either linear or exponential will always be hard to build without relying on grinding either murder hobo style or doing many, many quests.  In table top games then GM can encourage you to interact with the world and become involved in the story of the world in between stints of mindless slaughter.  Its also possible to create win conditions that don’t require killing your adversaries.  It is much harder to program for 1000s of characters to interact with the actual story of the world in a meaningful and impactful way.

    It might be possible to unlink skills and gear from character levels.  Skills only go up by using them and therefor must be raised through combat or practice in some way.  Gear could be capped in some way by defensive skills that also need to be leveled through practice in order to get the most out of the gear.  Class levels could be gotten exclusively through completing your levels class quest.

    Class levels would only unlock your abilities and not scale any of your stats.  The stats would all come from the gear you had acquired and could utilize.  This could possibly create a situation where you could use one of your weapon types at a level 35 level, another weapon skill at level 12, your armor at a level 22 level while only having completed up to level 15 of your class quests.

    The design of the class quests would be created such that your skills and gear are all intended to be at the same level range of the quest in order to complete in a group.  To complete your level 50 quest you would realistically need all your relevant skills near maximum as the level 50 quest would be at a higher relative difficulty than all the previous class quests.

    There could be a form of choose your own adventure to your class quests such that no one has exactly the same sequence or targets and the sum total of your class quests more or less tell your characters story.

    This is a little bit pushing the standard adventuring model on its side then kicking it in the head disjointing everything.  Realistically the crafting class could also follow a similar model to advance.

    • 752 posts
    December 12, 2018 12:00 PM PST

    The problem ive seen is when questing replaces mob grinding as there is just such a larger exp benefit given from a quest. If the exp reward is comparable to mob grinding then i would be ok with it even though i have other personal opinions about quest rewards. Now if they work side by side where you gain small exp from killing and then you grab orc belts and turn them in - thats fine. 

    If you level by questing i fully expect your skills to be so low you cant hit anything or defend against anything. There has to be that third consideration in place.


    This post was edited by kreed99 at December 12, 2018 12:12 PM PST
    • 3852 posts
    December 12, 2018 1:15 PM PST

    kreed99 - suppose it takes 6 months to grind to maximum level. Also suppose it takes 6 months to quest to maximum level. 

    If you can grind and I can quest or either of us can split it 50-50 or by any other percentage - why does it bother you that I can level-up a different way than you prefer?

    Or does it bother you? Maybe you are only bothered if quests are a lot faster than grinding - in which case we don't disagree.

    Quests or grinding - let both be supported. Separate but equal.

    • 17 posts
    December 12, 2018 3:53 PM PST

    dorotea said:

    Quests or grinding - let both be supported. Separate but equal.

    This

    Personally I would rather there only be a couple quests in the game. Make them long and involved with a killer story. Hate quest hubs and being forced to quest to level. Most boring gameplay ever created.


    This post was edited by Grym at December 12, 2018 3:56 PM PST
    • 1120 posts
    December 12, 2018 4:39 PM PST

    I honestly feel that people who say they prefer grinding over questing, only do because that's the first thing they probably experienced.

    They are both "grinding".   Questing just gives the grinding a purpose.

    It's also probably more difficult to have s group centric game focused on questing.  So that's also going to play a factor into people's preferences, I prefer a group centric game, therefore I most likely prefer grinding.

    • 438 posts
    December 12, 2018 4:57 PM PST
    Yea dude, probably right @Porygon. Just a dumb thought I have at the moment but a “what if” questing could be a viable way to level but also requires you to be grouped for the content? Probably has been mentioned before I just am not going to go through four years worth of threads. That keeps VR true to the group oriented gameplay they want, but also gives folks who prefer questing over mob grinding their path. I don’t know, I prefer dungeon crawling and grinding mobs over personal questing for levels.
    • 1120 posts
    December 12, 2018 6:54 PM PST

    Mordecai said: Yea dude, probably right @Porygon. Just a dumb thought I have at the moment but a “what if” questing could be a viable way to level but also requires you to be grouped for the content? Probably has been mentioned before I just am not going to go through four years worth of threads. That keeps VR true to the group oriented gameplay they want, but also gives folks who prefer questing over mob grinding their path. I don’t know, I prefer dungeon crawling and grinding mobs over personal questing for levels.

    The immediate issues I see with that, are it's going to create staggered quest completions and depending how efficient it is. Could disrupt the normal style of grouping.  (Get players leaving after they complete their quest, leaving the group looking for a replacement).

    It's very hard to create "group quests".

    Something that I could see, is a task style system like what was introduced in later EQ.  Maybe you need at least 3 people to accept the quest, and in order to accept it, noone else could already be on it.  This would create a system where the entire group is always on the same part of the quest.

    Could be used to maybe augment dungeon "crawling".

    I honestly dont care.  I'll grind all day.

    • 438 posts
    December 12, 2018 6:57 PM PST
    Yea for sure I see that too. And I’m in agreement with the grind. Loved it, love it. Also was balls deep into WoW as well so see the other side. I just didn’t care for the solo play via quest as much as EQ style group n grind
    • 233 posts
    December 13, 2018 3:59 AM PST

    If combat is fluid and fun, if enemies are a challenge but not because they have more health, if the world is amazing and begs to be explored and every quest isnt kill this or collect that, then i dont think lvling will be an issue.

    • 313 posts
    December 13, 2018 4:49 AM PST

    Porygon said:

    Mordecai said: Yea dude, probably right @Porygon. Just a dumb thought I have at the moment but a “what if” questing could be a viable way to level but also requires you to be grouped for the content? Probably has been mentioned before I just am not going to go through four years worth of threads. That keeps VR true to the group oriented gameplay they want, but also gives folks who prefer questing over mob grinding their path. I don’t know, I prefer dungeon crawling and grinding mobs over personal questing for levels.

    The immediate issues I see with that, are it's going to create staggered quest completions and depending how efficient it is. Could disrupt the normal style of grouping.  (Get players leaving after they complete their quest, leaving the group looking for a replacement).

    Yes, I was going to mention something about quests disrupting the group aspect of the game.  If the focus of the game is achieveing a large number of different and specific tasks (quests), you make it very difficult to get a group of players together whose goals align.   

    A game like Pantheon needs a smaller number of highly engaging quests (quality > quantity) that groups can encounter organically (perception system) rather than endlessly bombarding players with repetitive menial task quests.  In LOTRO, it's pretty common to be running around with 30-40 active quests.  A zone where you might spend 5 levels will have 100-200 quests for you to do.  This is just not conducive to grouping.  It's very much a solo-oriented design, and it's antithetical to what Pantheon is shooting for.  

    That being said, I'm not against including objective-based activities designed with group play in mind.  For example, repeatable quests to turn in drops work well with group play.  But I do not want the game to have endless chains of "errand boy" work.  


    This post was edited by zoltar at December 13, 2018 5:10 AM PST
    • 1315 posts
    December 13, 2018 5:21 AM PST

    A type of group quest that I could see be interesting and able to coexist with mob grinders would be timed reconnaissance quest.

    I am terrible at remembering Pantheon lore so I am going to use EQ instead.

    The Guard Captain of Kelethin is concerned that the Orcs of Crushbone are about to launch an attack on the residents of Greater Feydark.  He is looking for a squad leader between level 13-18 to venture into Crushbone and see how things stand and sabotage at least 3 different Orc preparations for war and kill two officer level orcs to disrupt their leadership.

    The Guard Captain will only give this quest to the group leader of a group of at least 3 people.  None of the members of the group can be outside the 13-18 level range as it is either endangering the young and inexperienced or too lowly a task for someone of such abilities.  If any time someone outside that level range, or not mentored down to be in that level range, joins the party it automatically fails.

    The quest timer is 2 hours long and anyone in the group from completing the first objective to the final objective gets credit for finishing the quest but it must be turned in before the 2 hour time limit.

    Any of the named or Lieutenant Orcs in Crushbone will count as officers for the purpose of the quest.

    Spread throughout Crushbone will be different supply depots.  The perception system will warn you when you think you have found them.  Once you have found them there will be several ways to sabotage the depots.  This could be an interesting point where different crafting classes or adventuring classes might have nonstandard options that could yield a better result than the standard “light it on fire”.  The act of sabotaging a depot has a chance to spawn different depot guardians that are basically mini named monsters that have their own loot tables.  These mobs will only spawn if you are on the quest and sabotaging a depot.  Sabotaging the same point twice will not be an option so you will need to travel around Crushbone to find 3 different spots.  If possible these can random spawn all over the zone so searching will be required.

    A quest of this type would be focused on a set time period to complete, a set level range, would require starting from and returning to the same place as a group, would involve fighting, problem solving, and exploration.

    The experience, possible item rewards and faction gains would need to make up for not just sitting an camping one spot which will likely be one of the most efficient ways to level.  These quests could either draw from all the areas named mobs or be a unique loot table only available to those who have completed the quest while in its challenge range.  This will encourage player to mentor down and work with lowbies if it contains items or faction that they want.

    • 313 posts
    December 13, 2018 6:34 AM PST

    Yea, something like that would be nice.  What I don't want to see is you run into some injured solider in the field who sends you back to town to get help.  They send you to collect herbs to make a healing potion.  You collect the herbs, deliver them.  Then they send you to give the potion to 10 wounded soldiers.  Then you go back to town and a wife whose husband didn't come back with the injured asks you to go find the family's heirloom medallion on his body.  Then she sends you to deliver the medallion to his brother over in another town, where you're then given another long list of menial tasks to complete.  

    Rinse and repeat 1000 times.

    • 3852 posts
    December 13, 2018 7:48 AM PST

    Some quests are large and complex. Epic, even.

    Most are not.

    What Zoltar does not want to see is exactly what I *do* want to see. 

    Plenty of non-epic quests giving variety and a bit of structure for those that like it. 

    Not simply a handful of long complex quests and 10 million pigs to kill to get from level 1 to maximum level.

    No quest ever designed is as boring, tedious, mind-numbing and miserably boring as just spending one's time killing thousands of creatures with no reason whatever other than 2xp per kill and the chance they will drop an intestine some *really* sick NPC will buy for 1 copper piece. With most of the pigs probably being gutless.

    • 313 posts
    December 13, 2018 8:41 AM PST

    dorotea said:

    No quest ever designed is as boring, tedious, mind-numbing and miserably boring as just spending one's time killing thousands of creatures with no reason whatever other than 2xp per kill and the chance they will drop an intestine some *really* sick NPC will buy for 1 copper piece. With most of the pigs probably being gutless.

     

    You are missing the entire point behind Pantheon which is to make a game where grouping with other players and going out to kill mobs is not mindless and boring.  You do this by making the game challenging and inherently social.  You make the world interesting for players to explore (on their own, not always at the direction of some NPC) and full of possible goals for players to work towards.  

    Sure, in the context of some game that's entirely devoid of danger (outside of a handful of raids or heroic dungeons), with no significant penalty for death or failure, optimized for solo play, and with environments that are just scenery, I can understand your point of view.  But that is not this game! 

    • 79 posts
    December 13, 2018 9:12 AM PST

      If it was up to me I would make it take a year of 4 hours a day to get max level, its probably a unpopular idea but I hate when a new MMO comes out and my group of friends all take a week off work knowing they can get max level or close in that time. So by the time a month goes by everyone has experienced what they need to and end up quiting the game because no one is stupid enough to stay to do dailly farming of token crap in the same 4-6 dungeons.

     I have always enjoyed the leveling up process more than end game, the longer it takes me the more rewarding those new abilities feel its one of the main things I loved about Everquest.  End game is exactly that the end of your game, you can pretend like farming those raid bosses for the chance to get a piece of gear is somehow going to accomplish something but deep down you should know if you have the best gear you have nothing to use it on so its pointless.

     We can all try to come up with ideas of making the questing/grinding less intrusive but all that means is faster leveling which leads to not playing or replaying. So I say make it whoop your ass so when you do reach the end it feels like an accomplishment and new stuff is already close to being finished!


    This post was edited by Damacon at December 13, 2018 9:13 AM PST
    • 287 posts
    December 13, 2018 9:20 AM PST

    A big (imo) mistake that other MMOs have made is following WoW's example, though they may not have been the first to do this. Using quests as a primary means of leveling turns the process into a checklist where the player barely notices the world they're playing in.  The player simply reaches a quest hub, gathers all the available quests, follows the minimap/sparkly trails/markers for the first or nearest quest on the list, knocks that out as quickly as possible, repeats for the rest of the list, returns to the quest hub and swaps out completed quests with a fresh batch. Rinse and repeat.  Little could be more boring than this apart from possibly mindlessly grinding the same mobs until you outlevel them then move on to the next mobs.

    Quests, again imo, should not yield experience rewards at all.  The experience gained should be done in the process of completing the quest via killing monsters, finding the quest's objective (item, place, etc) or whatever else the quest requires of you.  This may mean that VR needs to find creative ways of awarding exp gains but that same gains should be achievable even without the quest.  Quests should be nothing more than things to go do or see or learn about; Snippets of Lore used to provide small or large goals.  In some cases completing a quest may reward a player with a bit of gold, some piece of gear or consumables but exp gains should never be part of the set of quest rewards.

    Though even more difficult, it would help a lot if quests weren't so static that they can be documented in full on some wiki somewhere.  If quests sprang into existence due to some chain of events that occurred in the world the whole world would feel far more dynamic.  Of course it would also help if NPCs weren't standing perpetually in the same spot, year after year.  Maybe we're not there yet but I would think that some of the advancements in game AI could be used to make an MMO world much more dynamic than the rigid, unchanging worlds we've all played in before.  And a more dynamic world is far more interesting to play in than yet another paint-by-numbers adventure.