Forums » The Cleric

Rez and xp

    • 272 posts
    July 12, 2018 10:00 AM PDT
    So, I've been looking over the class reveals and I've noticed something.

    :Here's all the Rez abilities shown to date:
    Cleric:
    Resurrect
    Brings a fallen ally back to life, restoring a portion of their lost experience. Causes Resurrection Sickness. Only usable out of combat.

    Plea of the Devout
    Bring a fallen ally back to life in the heat of battle. This ability does not cause Resurrection Sickness and will restore 80% of your ally’s Max Health and Mana. Usable in combat.

    Shaman:
    Part the Veil
    You guide the spirit of a fallen ally back to their physical body, restoring them to life. Causes Resurrection Sickness. Cannot use this ability while in combat.

    Druid:
    Hirode's Chrysalis
    You ask Hirode to plant a mystical seed within your ally. When this ally takes damage that would kill them, this seed prevents their death and blooms into a protective chrysalis. While inside the chrysalis, target cannot be damaged and will emerge with X% of their Max Health and Mana restored.

    Paladin:
    Atone
    You sacrifice half of your health to resurrect a fallen ally. If you are below half health when you use this ability, you will be brought to 1 point of health and left in an Overzealous state, obstructing healing effects on you for X seconds. (Uses 2 Reckoning Points)

    Note that only cleric Rez States anything about xp return. It looks like druids get a soulstone ala wow warlock instead of a Rez and the other Rez abilities all have different effects but only cleric resurrection has XP restore.
    • 79 posts
    July 12, 2018 10:54 AM PDT

    Might not be representative of all of the abilities the classes will have. In previous streams, they've said every healing class will get a revive when talking about helping groups recover from wipes. I don't exactly see how the druid one would help with corpse recovery unless they also get a more standardized version out of combat. I'd almost expect part of the druid's abilities might be an evac to the nearest portal stone, so maybe they'll get that in lieu of a rez rez? Maybe using Hirode's Focus to empower Hirode's Chrysalis will act as a standard rez? Maybe Hirode's Rescue can be used on target corpses as a sort of corpse summon? Or druids can Mantle of Leaves in, Hirode's Rescue summon people in? I dunno. Lots of questions spawning out of the reveals. But we'll see.

    I want to love the shaman one more, except their battle rez mechanic (Agewalker's Gift, not mentioned above) requires that they die first.

    • 49 posts
    July 13, 2018 3:11 AM PDT

    Has it been stated if you will be able to down level from xp loss? 

    • 4319 posts
    July 13, 2018 6:06 AM PDT

    Thallium said:

    Has it been stated if you will be able to down level from xp loss? 

    Currently, you can't lose levels. Instead, you'll rack up an XP debt.

    (Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8407/bazgrim-s-19-apr-18-stream-recap ;)


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at July 13, 2018 6:08 AM PDT
    • 69 posts
    July 13, 2018 7:59 AM PDT

    DagNabbit said:

    Might not be representative of all of the abilities the classes will have. In previous streams, they've said every healing class will get a revive when talking about helping groups recover from wipes. I don't exactly see how the druid one would help with corpse recovery unless they also get a more standardized version out of combat. I'd almost expect part of the druid's abilities might be an evac to the nearest portal stone, so maybe they'll get that in lieu of a rez rez? Maybe using Hirode's Focus to empower Hirode's Chrysalis will act as a standard rez? Maybe Hirode's Rescue can be used on target corpses as a sort of corpse summon? Or druids can Mantle of Leaves in, Hirode's Rescue summon people in? I dunno. Lots of questions spawning out of the reveals. But we'll see.

    I want to love the shaman one more, except their battle rez mechanic (Agewalker's Gift, not mentioned above) requires that they die first.

    Shaman one seems pretty awesome to me.  Usually you count as an ally.  So Shaman can die in an AOE, corpse drag safely away from the spot and then battle rez himself.  Sure, he cannot battle rez a tank or DPS, but pretty often the death of the healer is a wipe causer

    • 509 posts
    August 10, 2018 11:28 AM PDT

    So if you take a battle rez via Plea of the Devout, can we assume your corpse poofs and you're not able to get an experience rez after the fight is over?

    Seems like the pressure would be on to take battle rezzes to prevent full group wipes, especially for certain classes.  This may be in line with a move to have less severe exp loss from death than we had in EQ.

    • 490 posts
    August 13, 2018 8:05 AM PDT

    As we saw from the latest streams... the ability descriptions in game are often a lot more detailed than the info we were given in the class reveals. The reveals seem to just be a basic "Oh you get a spell that basically does something like this" whereas in the game you see "This ability does this"

    So when we get a more clear look at what all the healers abilities actually say in the in game tooltips we will be more enlightened to who can give experience back and who can res during combat.

    • 2 posts
    August 13, 2018 6:07 PM PDT

    I hope the Cleric is the ONLY one with a EXP rez, because it makes it a class defining feature and one of the MAIN reasons I would like to play a Cleric over other healing classes.


    This post was edited by Bluemaze at August 13, 2018 6:12 PM PDT
    • 295 posts
    August 13, 2018 10:01 PM PDT

    Not going to happen Bluemaze. The Cleric golden age is long gone. It's been dull and boring ever since. Even in Vanguard the Cleric couldn't heal as good as a shaman or disciple. Better just accept it. That's what I'm trying to do.

    • 2445 posts
    August 14, 2018 11:17 AM PDT

    If cleric have the only exp rez then the other classes may as well not have rez at all. 

    • 156 posts
    August 14, 2018 4:18 PM PDT

    Iksar said:

    If cleric have the only exp rez then the other classes may as well not have rez at all. 

    Honestly it depends on how much exp you lose on death and how much exp the cleric rezz returns. Given the choice between any exp back and no exp back of course we want exp back. But if the exp return for the cleric rezz isn't that much then it might not be worth hunting down a cleric if there isn't one around.

    • 98 posts
    August 19, 2018 5:06 PM PDT

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Iksar said:

    If cleric have the only exp rez then the other classes may as well not have rez at all. 

    Honestly it depends on how much exp you lose on death and how much exp the cleric rezz returns. Given the choice between any exp back and no exp back of course we want exp back. But if the exp return for the cleric rezz isn't that much then it might not be worth hunting down a cleric if there isn't one around.

     

    Yeah it really matters how hard the exp you lose is to get back. In lineage2 you would lose 2% of your exp on death, and that took hours to get back so you always wanted the best rez you could get. If you lose 2% in this game but you can get it back by the end of your 2 hour group run its not as a big of a deal, but still enough of a pain to warrant you to want to play smarter and not die.

    • 6 posts
    August 21, 2018 8:07 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    If cleric have the only exp rez then the other classes may as well not have rez at all. 

     

    Soo...you're at the bottom of a dungeon on your with a druid healer and you die to an AoE. You'd rather your druid have ZERO ways of bringing you back if they don't involve exp return? I'm not seeing your logic here. Unless this is one of those "paper and rock are fine, scissors are overpowered" things.

    /shrug

    • 35 posts
    August 21, 2018 11:04 AM PDT

    lambasted said:

    Iksar said:

    If cleric have the only exp rez then the other classes may as well not have rez at all. 

     

    Soo...you're at the bottom of a dungeon on your with a druid healer and you die to an AoE. You'd rather your druid have ZERO ways of bringing you back if they don't involve exp return? I'm not seeing your logic here. Unless this is one of those "paper and rock are fine, scissors are overpowered" things.

    /shrug

     

    No, you'd take the exp-less druid rez and next time be sure to take a cleric instead of a druid/shaman.....which is kind of the point the guy is making.  people will be less likely to take a druid or shaman as main healer if they cannot give exp rezzes.

     

    I'm guessing groups (especially min/max groups) would rather wait and get a cleric for their exp rez instead of losing hours worth of exp if they die.

     

    Let's say you lose ~2 hours of exp when you die, 6 players in a group, that means 12 total hours of loss with a druid or shaman healer without exp rez every time you wipe crawling a dungeon.....yeah I'm guessing people will want to wait for a cleric LOL

     

    Of course this is assuming the shaman and druid don't get exp rez.

    • 98 posts
    August 22, 2018 8:31 AM PDT

    When I used to play Lineage 2 Bishops had the best % rez when it came to getting exp back. The Bishop was clearly the big boy healer and the person you wanted giving you a rez. The other healers had other, different, utility spells so they were still desired in group, they weren't totally useless. I think an SE would give you 20% of your lost exp back while a Bishop could get up to 80% much like the Cleric here. I honestly think they are going to go a similar route here.

    • 35 posts
    August 22, 2018 11:57 AM PDT

    Bankie said:

    When I used to play Lineage 2 Bishops had the best % rez when it came to getting exp back. The Bishop was clearly the big boy healer and the person you wanted giving you a rez. The other healers had other, different, utility spells so they were still desired in group, they weren't totally useless. I think an SE would give you 20% of your lost exp back while a Bishop could get up to 80% much like the Cleric here. I honestly think they are going to go a similar route here.

     

    I sure hope not.  Class performance based on equal player skill should be no greater than 5% and since an out of combat rez requires zero skill to perform, there shouldn't be that great (80-20 as you state lineage was) of a difference or any difference at all in my opinion.

    I am REALLY hoping they avoid the "big boy healer" or "big boy *insert class here*" issues they had in EQ and other games were plagued with.  Having a single healing class be the only one to give an exp rez will not only clearly be an issue but will also clearly lead to class favoritism and shunning of the healing classes that cannot peform an exp rez.

    Over in the Druid forum someone touted the idea of a Resurection Tree skill to go along with the Verdanfire Tree and I not only think it is a great idea but should also be an out of combat exp rez equal to that of the Cleric and Shaman (though they have to come up with an out of combat rez for Shaman that fits lore/makes sense for the class).

     


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at August 22, 2018 11:58 AM PDT
    • 98 posts
    August 22, 2018 2:18 PM PDT

    TheBus88 said:

    Bankie said:

    When I used to play Lineage 2 Bishops had the best % rez when it came to getting exp back. The Bishop was clearly the big boy healer and the person you wanted giving you a rez. The other healers had other, different, utility spells so they were still desired in group, they weren't totally useless. I think an SE would give you 20% of your lost exp back while a Bishop could get up to 80% much like the Cleric here. I honestly think they are going to go a similar route here.

     

    I sure hope not.  Class performance based on equal player skill should be no greater than 5% and since an out of combat rez requires zero skill to perform, there shouldn't be that great (80-20 as you state lineage was) of a difference or any difference at all in my opinion.

    I am REALLY hoping they avoid the "big boy healer" or "big boy *insert class here*" issues they had in EQ and other games were plagued with.  Having a single healing class be the only one to give an exp rez will not only clearly be an issue but will also clearly lead to class favoritism and shunning of the healing classes that cannot peform an exp rez.

    Over in the Druid forum someone touted the idea of a Resurection Tree skill to go along with the Verdanfire Tree and I not only think it is a great idea but should also be an out of combat exp rez equal to that of the Cleric and Shaman (though they have to come up with an out of combat rez for Shaman that fits lore/makes sense for the class).

     

     

    So you want every class type to be the same but with a different hat? 

     

    As I mentioned before the Bishop had the better direct heals and rez spells but they had zero buff spells. As a result this meant other healing classes that did get more utility spells were also still desirable. Differfent scenarios call for different classes and dynamics. If you are going into an encounter with the idea of "I need the good rez" you are already setting yourself up for failure. Go into the encounter thinking "do we have the proper group make up to get this done efficently without anyone getting killed?"

    • 35 posts
    August 23, 2018 11:17 AM PDT

    Bankie said:

    TheBus88 said:

    Bankie said:

    When I used to play Lineage 2 Bishops had the best % rez when it came to getting exp back. The Bishop was clearly the big boy healer and the person you wanted giving you a rez. The other healers had other, different, utility spells so they were still desired in group, they weren't totally useless. I think an SE would give you 20% of your lost exp back while a Bishop could get up to 80% much like the Cleric here. I honestly think they are going to go a similar route here.

     

    I sure hope not.  Class performance based on equal player skill should be no greater than 5% and since an out of combat rez requires zero skill to perform, there shouldn't be that great (80-20 as you state lineage was) of a difference or any difference at all in my opinion.

    I am REALLY hoping they avoid the "big boy healer" or "big boy *insert class here*" issues they had in EQ and other games were plagued with.  Having a single healing class be the only one to give an exp rez will not only clearly be an issue but will also clearly lead to class favoritism and shunning of the healing classes that cannot peform an exp rez.

    Over in the Druid forum someone touted the idea of a Resurection Tree skill to go along with the Verdanfire Tree and I not only think it is a great idea but should also be an out of combat exp rez equal to that of the Cleric and Shaman (though they have to come up with an out of combat rez for Shaman that fits lore/makes sense for the class).

     

     

    So you want every class type to be the same but with a different hat? 

     

    As I mentioned before the Bishop had the better direct heals and rez spells but they had zero buff spells. As a result this meant other healing classes that did get more utility spells were also still desirable. Differfent scenarios call for different classes and dynamics. If you are going into an encounter with the idea of "I need the good rez" you are already setting yourself up for failure. Go into the encounter thinking "do we have the proper group make up to get this done efficently without anyone getting killed?"

     

    Again, I want to avoid "big boy healer".  I don't want the "desired but not preferred" in a group either.  All healers should be preferred when a group needs a healer, the "well yeah there's a Druid LFG but he can't even rez let's wait for a Shaman or Cleric" should simply not happen.

     

    I played a Paladin in EQ and up until end game I had fun, but Paladins were not the "big boy tanks" and while somewhat "desired" in groups, they were not "preferred".  And when it came to raids you rarely if ever used a Paladin as tank.  This eventually led to my Paladin not being fun to play because as the game got harder people wanted the "preferred" "big boy" tank and I sat around LFG forever, see a warrior LFG and get a group instantly.

     

    This is a natural human response.  No ammount of "making the proper group" is going to overcome the fact that if you have three healing classes that can all heal but one gives an exp rez, that that will be the preferred class and lead to shunning the other two classes.  Each one of the Pantheon healing classes is described as "Healer, Support, Utility" and each one CURRENTLY (emphasis) has healing, support and utility spells but only one CURRENTLY has an exp rez.  One doesn't even have an ability to rez at all yet, which is very concerning to me.

     

    No ammount of "making the proper group" can make up for the dozens of other things that can go wrong and wipe your group, such as a train that isn't even your groups fault.  People know this and will always prefer the class that gives an exp rez all other things being mostly equal.  Utility means squat if you're all dead from a train.  Exp return and the ability to even rez from that wipe means far more at that point.

     

    But yes I'd much prefer us being able to do it all the same but "with a different hat" or play style than making a character to max level only to find out that they are not the "big boy class" and while desireable not preferred to group with and definitely not with a raid.  Sitting around as a "healer" LFG for 45 minutes, seeing the "big boy" healing class come and get a group right away is the exact opposite of what Pantheon should be.

     

    Did we not learn our lessons from 20 years ago with the original EQ?

     

    If there is going to be an exp penalty upon death and only one class can return that exp it is blatantly obvious whch class will be the prefered healer.  Solutions are simple, remove exp penalty and accrue exp debt that cannot be restored by a player, removing the need for exp rezzes or give all healing classes the ability to exp rez.  Anything else will clearly lead to class favouritism, if a member of the class has a restraint the others don't it will be avoided, 100% human nature.


    This post was edited by TheBus88 at August 23, 2018 1:10 PM PDT
    • 156 posts
    September 2, 2018 9:53 AM PDT

    Again, I think the amount of the experience restored via rezzes makes all the difference in these scenarios. If it's an hour of playtime, that's a drop in the bucket and doesn't even matter. If it's a whole day's worth of exp, then the cleric will be the most desired healer as people have been saying.

    • 2445 posts
    September 7, 2018 3:31 PM PDT

    lambasted said:

    Iksar said:

    If cleric have the only exp rez then the other classes may as well not have rez at all. 

     

    Soo...you're at the bottom of a dungeon on your with a druid healer and you die to an AoE. You'd rather your druid have ZERO ways of bringing you back if they don't involve exp return? I'm not seeing your logic here. Unless this is one of those "paper and rock are fine, scissors are overpowered" things.

    /shrug

    If death/exp loss really hurts and cleric had the only good exp rez? I'd rather not have a druid rez with no exp return. There were more than a couple times in EQ that I turned down even lower level cleric resurrects to get the best exp return. If I lost an hour worth of exp I would gladly run the 20-30 minutes back to my corpse if necessary all while working to line up a cleric rez in the meantime. If there is only a short window for exp rez compared to the hour or two EQ offered then I would be sure to find a cleric to static with or make one myself instead of the others. 

    • 295 posts
    September 7, 2018 10:10 PM PDT

    I see quite a few people really hung up on the different rez % from EQ. I was a Cleric. I was rez'd mostly by Pally's and Druids. I never thought twice about that 10% difference. I was just glad that someone was there to rez me so I can rez the group. To each their own I guess.


    This post was edited by Retsof at September 7, 2018 10:11 PM PDT
    • 13 posts
    November 20, 2018 3:00 AM PST

    It seems to be that many people are worried about the rez granting exp or not, and favoritism amongst classes.  One major point is there needs to be diversity in classes, that is the point of playing a different class.  I won't say I am for Cleric being the "only" class with an exp rez, but you want to maintain that feeling that classes have advantages and cons alike.  One easy way they could fix this, is just change the amount of exp returned from the rez.

    Cleric - 90%

    Others - 30%

    Retsof made a very good point, sometimes it is better to have "a" rez rather than no rez.

    The last point I would like to make is, from what I have seen from all of the abilities each class is looking to get - there are going to be many other abilities that make other classes desirable.  I highly doubt you will see people in groups saying "12 druid healers but no clerics GAHHHH!" when those classes offer other clear advantages which may just tweak the playstyle of the group slightly, yes?  I know I wouldn't - I would grab the Druid if a healer was needed and work with what I have got.  

    Again, I think the fairest method would be just to reduce the amount of exp gained - but I won't complain if those classes rez abilities don't have exp return either.  I will adjust accordingly.

    • 1688 posts
    November 20, 2018 7:11 AM PST

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Again, I think the amount of the experience restored via rezzes makes all the difference in these scenarios. If it's an hour of playtime, that's a drop in the bucket and doesn't even matter. If it's a whole day's worth of exp, then the cleric will be the most desired healer as people have been saying.

    An hour of playtime lost if you can only play an hour a day means the gains you earned for that evening are now lost.  Time, as Einstein said, is relative. Doubly so for MMOs where how much time you play can easily affect your choices for group composition.  The average player out there is very risk averse and will go to great effort to minimize their risk so if there is but one class with a rez that returns XP those players will require that class in their groups.  It may very well prove to be the case that two healers is the optimal choice for the average player as an additional insurance against a group wipe but one of them will definitely be the class with an XP rez.  This matter is further complicated if the class which can cast an XP rez can do so in combat.  Read the Shaman and Cleric information closely and you'll see that for the Shaman to use its resurrect ability in combat the Shaman must already be dead itself.  Show me an average group of players where they are facing a tough or unexpected pull and the healer in the group dies as well as another person in the group (say the main tank) and the group still survives and I'll show you an extremely lucky (or very well geared/skilled) group.  Average players do not recover so easily.

    So while I'm a strong proponent of each priest class having the same resurrect outcome, that being the exact same return of XP, there does need to be some difference between the classes.  To this end it is the other aspects of resurrection that can differ.  The Cleric, in keeping with its historical 'prime' healing bent, should return the fallen with 100% health, 50% mana and no resurrection sickness.  The Shaman should return the fallen with 100% health, 50% mana but with 4 minutes (actual duration TBD) of resurrection sickness and the Druid can return 50% health, 100% mana and 2 minutes of resurrection sickness.  This way each priest class has different benefits to the other classes.  The Cleric and Shaman are better for resurrecting Melee classes while the Druid is better for caster classes.

    • 156 posts
    November 20, 2018 4:43 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    LucasBlackstone said:

    Again, I think the amount of the experience restored via rezzes makes all the difference in these scenarios. If it's an hour of playtime, that's a drop in the bucket and doesn't even matter. If it's a whole day's worth of exp, then the cleric will be the most desired healer as people have been saying.

    An hour of playtime lost if you can only play an hour a day means the gains you earned for that evening are now lost.  Time, as Einstein said, is relative. Doubly so for MMOs where how much time you play can easily affect your choices for group composition.  The average player out there is very risk averse and will go to great effort to minimize their risk so if there is but one class with a rez that returns XP those players will require that class in their groups.  It may very well prove to be the case that two healers is the optimal choice for the average player as an additional insurance against a group wipe but one of them will definitely be the class with an XP rez.  This matter is further complicated if the class which can cast an XP rez can do so in combat.  Read the Shaman and Cleric information closely and you'll see that for the Shaman to use its resurrect ability in combat the Shaman must already be dead itself.  Show me an average group of players where they are facing a tough or unexpected pull and the healer in the group dies as well as another person in the group (say the main tank) and the group still survives and I'll show you an extremely lucky (or very well geared/skilled) group.  Average players do not recover so easily.

    So while I'm a strong proponent of each priest class having the same resurrect outcome, that being the exact same return of XP, there does need to be some difference between the classes.  To this end it is the other aspects of resurrection that can differ.  The Cleric, in keeping with its historical 'prime' healing bent, should return the fallen with 100% health, 50% mana and no resurrection sickness.  The Shaman should return the fallen with 100% health, 50% mana but with 4 minutes (actual duration TBD) of resurrection sickness and the Druid can return 50% health, 100% mana and 2 minutes of resurrection sickness.  This way each priest class has different benefits to the other classes.  The Cleric and Shaman are better for resurrecting Melee classes while the Druid is better for caster classes.

    By whole day, I was picturing 4 to 8 hours of playtime, but either way 1 hour of playtime lost isn't a big deal in an MMO where your playtime is meant to be hundreds of hours between levelling, questing, raiding, and whatever else you like to do. It may take you much longer to get the playtime in at only 1 hour per day but if that is all the time someone has to play, it is what it is.

    • 1688 posts
    November 20, 2018 6:21 PM PST

    LucasBlackstone said:

    By whole day, I was picturing 4 to 8 hours of playtime, but either way 1 hour of playtime lost isn't a big deal in an MMO where your playtime is meant to be hundreds of hours between levelling, questing, raiding, and whatever else you like to do. It may take you much longer to get the playtime in at only 1 hour per day but if that is all the time someone has to play, it is what it is.

    While I agree with you in principle, I will bet the average player does not think about such things in a long term approach.  They focus alot on the short term:  How am I doing right now or how was my night?  Did I advance or not tonight?  And if they really only can play 1 or 2 hours a night and 50% of their efforts are wiped out they will log off for the night very pissed off.  And if it happens again and again the odds of them quitting just keeps climbing to 100%.

    And all that needs done to significantly reduce the odds someone will quit is just to give the 3 priest classes the ability to cast an XP rez.  Not too much to ask for such a benefit to the entire playerbase.


    This post was edited by Vandraad at November 20, 2018 6:22 PM PST