Yes I know MMOs are computer games, but back in the day the "game" part came a distant second. They where worlds first, with community and friends you would adventure with. Recenty I have been playing another MMO while I wait for Pantheon, and it has just too many video game features to be enjoyable.. Jumping puzzles, dodge mechanics, instanced solo fights, solo story lines. Now these are not bad features, but all together the "MMO" starts to fade away and we end up with a solo "video game".
I don't want "action" combat, or jumping puzzles, or solo fights. I want to play a healer, helping friends on adventures, maybe getting a little loot on the way. If I wanted to play a "video game" I would do that, but MMOs are way more fun.
Well this would fit better in Off-Topic.
Anyway, I'm trying to understand your point with this thread. Me personally I love video games (including MMOs) but it seems like you're missing the slow pace we had back in the day? Slow pace, combined with a new game will make for a great adventure, for sure. It is still a video game, though, and one would better remember that. People kill themselves over **** like MMOs, please remember it isn't the end of the world if a game isn't to one's liking or if one loses in a game :P
I think you bring up a good point. I mean there seems to be a dividing line behind what you feel in an MMO and a solo RPG. Most solo RPG's have become rich and emotional first person role play adventures. I mean like Yakuza0 ++, Bioshock, Fallout, and the like. The emotional commitment/impact has become singular whereas in MMO's that impact depends on what the group accomplishes. It takes a bit more altruism or simple bonhommie to think about how you can put yourself in positions where you might have that catharsis. Where the events impact you just as much as they do others, like that great save or taking on content way higher than you and through some fluke, winning.
Or even making it to zoneline through a maze with a huge "accidental" train behind you and barely making it. Likewise seeing that newbie running to the zone and knowing a train is coming and imagining the other groups at Zone-in looking shocked (0_o) and starting to run out to zone but stopping as they see your group bravely dispatching it because you know your group is tough and can handle it- not for yourself, but for the newbie that ran out and more so for those in zone- this un-thanked heroism and telling that newbie- you can come back in now.
With single RPG's its "omgosh, what have I done!" with MMO's its "omgosh, dude, you had to do that?, that's so..." *decompressing conversation ensues among everyone in group with some cheering, some sympathizing, some objectifying, some with snarky jokes you hate to laugh at* and this diffused over seeing many reactions- actually allows an even more gut-wrentching event than could take place in normal RPG's. something even players can tell forever having "been there when..."
Manouk said:I think you bring up a good point. I mean there seems to be a dividing line behind what you feel in an MMO and a solo RPG. Most solo RPG's have become rich and emotional first person role play adventures. I mean like Yakuza0 ++, Bioshock, Fallout, and the like. The emotional commitment/impact has become singular whereas in MMO's that impact depends on what the group accomplishes. It takes a bit more altruism or simple bonhommie to think about how you can put yourself in positions where you might have that catharsis. Where the events impact you just as much as they do others, like that great save or taking on content way higher than you and through some fluke, winning.
Or even making it to zoneline through a maze with a huge "accidental" train behind you and barely making it. Likewise seeing that newbie running to the zone and knowing a train is coming and imagining the other groups at Zone-in looking shocked (0_o) and starting to run out to zone but stopping as they see your group bravely dispatching it because you know your group is tough and can handle it- not for yourself, but for the newbie that ran out and more so for those in zone- this un-thanked heroism and telling that newbie- you can come back in now.
With single RPG's its "omgosh, what have I done!" with MMO's its "omgosh, dude, you had to do that?, that's so..." *decompressing conversation ensues among everyone in group with some cheering, some sympathizing, some objectifying, some with snarky jokes you hate to laugh at* and this diffused over seeing many reactions- actually allows an even more gut-wrentching event than could take place in normal RPG's. something even players can tell forever having "been there when..."
Thumbs up for this post.
It's not just MMO's its most games. I remember when there were real strategy games like Civilization and Master of Orion. They too have been dumbed down for the masses. Natural evolution I guess. I just hope there are enough people like me wanting the game I hope they are making here for it to be born. I just need one game, just one and I'll let the rest of the world have the rest.
So, broadly, I agree with you guys. But I kind of want to challenge everyone a little bit here too. I think too often we equate certain types of gameplay - like "action combat" as an example - with a single-player experience. It's natural that we do this since the games that have had that style of combat have been very much single-player experiences. But I don't believe that correlation equals causation. I think it's possible to have fun/interesting/challenging types of gameplay and still have a group-centric experience that's more about being a world that we all inhabit together, than about being a "game".
Does that mean everything is appropriate for Pantheon? Of course not. But I think a lot of times we throw out ideas that could actually work in the world we want, just because where we saw them before was a game we didn't want.
I just don't want us to get so hung up on the way games played 20 years ago that we miss chances to make Pantheon a fun and rewarding experience for its players. So I say, bring on the jumping/climbing puzzles. Bring on the exploration and discovery. Bring on the spellweaving and tactical abilities that require you to think on your feet in combat, and react and dodge and continually position, instead of just standing there pressing 1...1....3...4...1...1 over and over again. That's all goodness. As long as progression is meaningful, choices are meaningful, and the bulk of the challenges are about working with other actual players (in more ways than just combat), all that stuff just adds to the experience. Obviously, there's a balance. But it's not an all-or-nothing thing.
I'm not sure if the slow paced stuff is all the great, im kind of torn, i feel world of warcraft was amazing at launch, I like the pace of the game in terms of combat, just wasnt a huge fan at how easy it was to solo, level, and the gearing kind of sucked, personally im a fan of if you can aquire it, you can wear it, not a huge fan of tiering either, i kind of like the fact that some items you could acquire at a lower level via questing or just a random drop or whatever would still be useful at higher levels. I 100% agree that soloing should be a last resort vs a style of play though, in eq soloing was generally WAY slower than grouping. Solo content is awful, I recently re-subbed to FFXIV and found myself soloing story content which i had to do to unlock certain areas of the game to max level, extremely boring and thats what i play console and single player games for =/.
