Forums » The Dire Lord

Parry? and other thoughts

    • 373 posts
    July 17, 2018 2:28 PM PDT

    Path of Exile has an interesting mechanic to make characters that rely on evasion less susceptible to bad RNG.  

     


    Evasion is not purely based on chance in the sense that each hit is independent. Instead, it uses a system of "entropy" to ensure that enemies won't get long strings of hits or misses by chance.[2] To summarize, these are the calculation steps in each attack:

    1. If it is first time an entity is attacked or if the time between the last attack and this one is larger than 6 seconds, randomise the entropy from 0–99.
    2. Calculate chance to hit of the attacker using the above formula, and add this integer to the entropy counter.
    3. If this is 100 or greater, the check counts as a hit. Subtract 100 from the entropy counter. Otherwise it is a miss and the entropy counter doesn't change.
    4. A critical hit is evaded on a separate random roll and will not affect this entropy value

    This system is designed to evenly spread out hits and misses such that players always evade an average number of times according to their ‘chance’ to evade. It is still based on chance because of the entropy counter's randomization in the first step. Note that if multiple mobs are attacking one character, all of the mobs' attacks share the same entropy counter.[3] Also note that the chance to evade calculation on the character page is based on the average accuracy of a monster at the player's level.

     

    I think it's a really good system.  If you have 50% chance to evade, then you will literally evade every other attack.  33% evasion means you're going to evade every 3rd hit.  

     

    • 44 posts
    February 27, 2019 12:05 PM PST

    Just a heads up. according to this video  https://www.twitch.tv/videos/301097358 ;(at time 27.03) Dire lords will not have block or riposte (at least not at  level (30))  still holding out hopes that this class can and will shine but with much less mitigation and now less defense it seems like the DL will be at a sad disadvantage... i dont beleive it will be to noticable until higher levels however... Im sure VR has taken this all into account though and time will tell. this is definatly the class i wanna play at launch and just hope it will be a viable tank in any situation and not just magic. I know block is generally reserved for shields. but as this dynamic isnt possible on the DL i beleive they should find another resource for avoidance seems like we are loosing allot with loosing mit and defense ability.  but as i said im sure they have accounted for this and until we get in to see for ourselfs this is all just speculation/worry that this class will be gimped..

    • 71 posts
    February 28, 2019 5:11 PM PST
    Has there been any talk of them having a higher dodge chance? I know we will have the whole magic mitigation thing on our side but I to worry about tanking, even in a group as MT.
    • 705 posts
    February 28, 2019 5:25 PM PST

    Rhelic said:

    Just a heads up. according to this video  https://www.twitch.tv/videos/301097358 ;(at time 27.03) Dire lords will not have block or riposte (at least not at  level (30))  still holding out hopes that this class can and will shine but with much less mitigation and now less defense it seems like the DL will be at a sad disadvantage... i dont beleive it will be to noticable until higher levels however... Im sure VR has taken this all into account though and time will tell. this is definatly the class i wanna play at launch and just hope it will be a viable tank in any situation and not just magic. I know block is generally reserved for shields. but as this dynamic isnt possible on the DL i beleive they should find another resource for avoidance seems like we are loosing allot with loosing mit and defense ability.  but as i said im sure they have accounted for this and until we get in to see for ourselfs this is all just speculation/worry that this class will be gimped..

    I agree Rhelic.  If they would put plate on the DL I too would play this class even with the lack of the use of a shield; but no heavy armor AND no shield are too much of a gimp for me on a class with the primary role of "Tank".  Aside from the block ability (which monks will likely be able to do without a shield) shields typically add a large amount of defenses (to include magic resistance and spell reflection... the whole DL's niche in one item).  The devs have explicitly identified that not all classes with the same roles will be equal... and if the game mechanics are anything like EQ (like a lot of us are assuming) then this class will be for the non-hardcore endgame tanks which is perfectly fine but leads me to think that my our concerns won't be addressed.  Also, even encounters designed around magic damage deal physical damage at some point.

    • 71 posts
    February 28, 2019 5:33 PM PST
    True but wouldn't we just be an OT then and only taunt to take the magic damage hit before the MT taunts back? I wouldn't mind if that's the case as long as we have something to make up for the loss of less physical damage. I plan of testing a DL pretty hard in alpha and beta as I'm sure many others are. Hoping our feedback isnt taken lightly and concerns get looked at.
    • 44 posts
    February 28, 2019 6:16 PM PST

    Draxsis said: True but wouldn't we just be an OT then and only taunt to take the magic damage hit before the MT taunts back? I wouldn't mind if that's the case as long as we have something to make up for the loss of less physical damage. I plan of testing a DL pretty hard in alpha and beta as I'm sure many others are. Hoping our feedback isnt taken lightly and concerns get looked at.

     

    I agree I for sure will be testing the heck out of this class until im blue in the face, and I am in no way saying the class IS gimped or lacking in one area or another because i have not played it at all. these are just my concernes not that i dont trust VR and their wealth of knowledge that will always surpass my own, and im hoping maybe for a few tid bits from developers on more indepth thoughts about the functionality of the class.. but just in my own mind ive seen this all before. sk's etc having to wear medium plate i think it was eq2? so many failed mmo's i cant actually remember. maybe it was AoC... but in the end it takes years and years of faithful sk/dk/DL etc to see some balance and in the meantime we get pity groups and pity raids.. im in no way saying this is what will transpire its just hard for me (and im sure the rest of you) who have played this type of character (while somewhat differemt, generally roughly t he same theme) to see the same begining for a promising class that really speaks to my playstyle.  the hard facts is eventually we all are min maxers (with the exceptions of friends) we will always prefer to have the better more efficient group than a sub par group. or the person is your friend, and even though you know you have better options you invite them because they are friends. which isnt bad. but again thats a pity group.  If the DL was meant to be an OT then it should be labled as such and put dps on par with a monk... simple fact. if we as a tank cannot tank on par with the other tanks then there's no point in the class. i made a  post before about how viable we are to a magical encounter. DL's are the ONLY class with a penalty to tanking, no one gets a disadvantage to tanking magic or physical mobs... we just have less AC which is a disadvantage... as far as i have seen warrior's paladins and even monks do not get increased incoming damage from magic based attacks...

    • 71 posts
    March 1, 2019 4:51 AM PST
    I'm glad we have a great community and people willing to look in depth on each class. Should be fun having all of us committed and testing every aspect. Can't wait to see how we all feel when we actually get the chance to test things out. Would be nice to find some "hidden" mechanic we weren't aware of that helps us be on par with the plate tanks.
    • 3 posts
    March 1, 2019 9:17 AM PST
    Let's say plate and a shield provide wars and paladin an extra 20 percent physical protection over dire Lord's. All they have to do to make us equal or at least close to them in physical reduction is to have a skill that provides us 10-20 percent physical damage reduction while skill is active. Make it flavorful to the dire Lord class. Remember the devs say that all tanks will be full fledged tanks.
    • 44 posts
    March 1, 2019 3:12 PM PST

    foereaper said: Let's say plate and a shield provide wars and paladin an extra 20 percent physical protection over dire Lord's. All they have to do to make us equal or at least close to them in physical reduction is to have a skill that provides us 10-20 percent physical damage reduction while skill is active. Make it flavorful to the dire Lord class. Remember the devs say that all tanks will be full fledged tanks.

    I agree foereaper it wouldnt be that hard to make all tanks equal. in any game really, the challenge i see for VR is keeping a unique class unique and still trying to maintain a balance.  Unfortunatly for the team, those of us who have fallen in love with this type of character have serious reservations and have even come to be overly boisterus when we see something off because of years and years of getting the short straw... I do understand and applaud the steps they have taken to not make this a cookie cutter class. which is why i am drawn to it, however my goals are end game, while taking spike damage may be manageable if not tedious, group situations are far different from end game content/raids where every hp coints every "avoidance" check counts, its going to be interesting to see and i hope my fears are unjust and we rock the **** out of it... like i said my concerns stem from years and years and years of this same scenario playing out and having to wait forever for them to find a fix.  but i honestly 100% have faith that since this is PA, and we havent even hit alpha or beta yet, IF there is an issue it will be addressed before launch.  We are lucky enough to have a wealth of experience in the developers we have. and while I know brad prefers paladins (no ones perfect), he understands the healthy competition between these two rivals that stems from 20 years of trash talking, and how important it is to be able to tank EVERY encounter and not be passed up because your class is flawed brad has been there through it all. as have most of the developers im sure joppa, being as partial he is to clerics fully understands and would speak up if things just arent manageable when healing a DL... I do have faith that this class will be on par,  again i just have my concerns from past experiences and cant wait to get in game and prove myself an idiot for the worry..

    • 373 posts
    March 1, 2019 7:16 PM PST

    Rhelic said:

    If the DL was meant to be an OT then it should be labled as such and put dps on par with a monk... simple fact. if we as a tank cannot tank on par with the other tanks then there's no point in the class. i made a  post before about how viable we are to a magical encounter. DL's are the ONLY class with a penalty to tanking, no one gets a disadvantage to tanking magic or physical mobs... we just have less AC which is a disadvantage... as far as i have seen warrior's paladins and even monks do not get increased incoming damage from magic based attacks...

    Interesting point, but ultimately I disagree.  Even if the DL was meant to be an OT (which I think it actually is but with an asterisk), they are still skew more towards the tanking side and less toward the DPS side compared to a monk.  So I'm fine with having less DPS, but I still hope the DPS falls right between the other tanks and true DPS.  Looking into my crystal ball, I see Dire Lords still being a highly sought-after class despite being solidly in the off-tank role.  Here's why: 

    1) Solid DPS.  

    2) Dire mark looks really good for siphoning off damage from the MT that you can heal back yourself.  The uptime on the skill is unclear, but siphoning damage is arguably superior to having to taunt off the MT to soak up some damage.  

    3) Situationally the best MT.  In areas with primairly magic damage, DL will clearly be the best tank.  Beyond having better mitigation yourself, you can shield the group from magic damage. 

    4) Splatter.  I think this skill will be a big deal by enabling AOE groups to overload single target dots on a group of enemies efficiently.  

     

    So why should the DL be considered a tank rather than a DPS that can OT?  Because there will be many situations where we are the best tanks, and in many other situations we'll be serviceable tanks even if a we're a step down from a Paladin or Warrior. 

    • 44 posts
    March 1, 2019 8:21 PM PST

    you make some very good points zoltar however I never meant from my perspective to say DL's are an off tank... i was referring to the above post saying that DL would be an OT... main reason i brought it up was that it was specifically stated (can provide the stream if desired) that DL is not and will not be an OT yes they can OT but they are tanks first and foremost.. I do agree the points you made with dire mark etc... it does give us a big advantage with utility and options when not MT'ing and thats something im very grateful for.  But my goal is to MT and not be a last resort tank. so hopefully we'll find that everything works out and we kick ass with the rest of em

     

    • 246 posts
    March 1, 2019 10:12 PM PST

    I would assume all the defensive avoidance skills haven't been implemented or tuned yet. As far as the Dire Lord's ability to tank, I don't see any reason why they couldn't MT.

    From my previous post in another DL thread:

    Let's say they take 15% more total (physical only) damage than a warrior - due to chainmail. If you breakdown the numbers a bit, a 500dmg hit on a warrior would be 575dmg to a Dire Lord. 700dmg hit would be 805dmg, 1000dmg is 1150dmg and so on. What do you think max HP values would be at level cap? 3k? 4k? 5k? Lets say they are around 4000hp to make it easy. Also, let's say a single-group raid boss hits for 1200dmg (max hit) on a warrior - which is ~1400dmg to a Dire Lord. So about a 200dmg difference for the class mitigation differences - which as we said based off HP, that is 5% of the DL's total health. Dire Lords can heal for 12% (over time) and 25% (instant) of their max HP pool on short cooldown melee attacks. As you can see the increased physical damage received is far outweighed (most likely*) by the self-healing they can produce.

    Pretty sure that more than makes up for the "inferior mitigation" that the class will have for wearing chain. Plus, we haven't even scratched the surface on the spell damage reduction CD's they have. As far as damage, they will probably have the edge (lol pun) on critical damage. For all of the tank classes, it will depend on how you gear (which actual stat you want the most) for total DPS. I figure all 3 tanks classes will be relatively similar base dps.

    • 373 posts
    March 2, 2019 9:16 AM PST

    @Fragile

    There's a few problems with your analysis.   

    1)  The paladin has a substantial amount of healing in ADDITION to having plate armor and a shield.  You really have to take that into account if you're going to use the DL healing as a counter to lower mitigation.  The paladin has a 24% heal with 3 seconds of invulnerability on a 20s cooldown.  I would put that on par with Abyssal Strike (25% heal, 15s CD).  They have a few other healing spells on relatively short cooldowns that seem to be in the ballpark of the healing dire lords get from thresh and auto-attacks.  

    2) It's very possible that the gap could be higher than 15%, especially compared to the warrior.  At this point, we have to just make up numbers to compare.  And made up numbers aren't really worth much.  But we do know that warriors get a passive 20% boost to AC on top of their plate and shield.  Then they have resilience as a final layer of mitigation (whatever that means).  Then you have blocking.  It's not inconceivable that blocking alone could contribute to a 15-25% gap in damage.  Of course, that's all within the purview of the developers.  There's a lot of ways they could choose to make blocking less impactful or give the Dire Lord extra parry chance to offset the difference.  Anyway, the point isn't that there's no way for the Dire Lord to be made comparable, it's just that there are some huge elephants in the room that have yet to be addressed.  

    3) Even if you were to perfectly balance Dire Lords against paladins and warriors by giving us increased healing, the question then becomes in what context.  If you balance it against a single +2 level mob, as soon as you have a bad pull or you go up against a hard-hitting boss, all of a sudden the incoming DPS jumps up and we start to lose ground against mitigation-based tanks.  So far, none of the abilities that Dire Lords have scale to incoming damage unless it's magic-based [edit: also the 2 minute CD damage reduction of 30-50%].  That could change, but if it stays then same it's a problem IMO.

     

    My intention isn't to say that the sky is falling at all.  It's possible that with some tweaks and other undisclosed abilities, the dire lord could be a fine MT.  I guess the real question is, would people rather be a "balanced" MT or an OT with solid DPS that can step up and be the dominant MT when facing heavy magic damage?  


    This post was edited by zoltar at March 2, 2019 9:19 AM PST
    • 44 posts
    March 2, 2019 12:11 PM PST

    I think you both brought up some very good points.  zoltar and I seem to be at least somewhat on the same mindset as far as i can tell. we arent saying that the class IS broken in any sense of the word. it is way way to early to say with finality that this class is broke and will not do this or that.  there are so many skills and abilities that we are just unaware of or maybe havent even been created yet.. not to mention the class could be twinked at any point i mean really we havent even hit the testing phase, i know some are in PA and thats great but not that many from my understanding.  from my standpoint im making a basic judgement of what i have to work with, but in a sense im glad because it gives me that desire to dig deeper, sort through every inch of data to find these answeres because i am very passionate about this class. i think  draxsis said it best:

    Draxsis said: I'm glad we have a great community and people willing to look in depth on each class. Should be fun having all of us committed and testing every aspect. Can't wait to see how we all feel when we actually get the chance to test things out. Would be nice to find some "hidden" mechanic we weren't aware of that helps us be on par with the plate tanks.

    I believe this hits the nail on the head, we are all here because we want to see this class excede our hopes, the worries we have are good, it inspires at least me to stay on top of it and get answeres to questions and concerns we may all have.

    • 246 posts
    March 2, 2019 8:04 PM PST

    @zoltar

    For the paladin to heal, they must use resources that then take away from threat building, dps'ing, and mitigating abilities (outside of Golden Strike, the paladin heal + invuln).  I think that's where the trade-off is. I can understand where not having a shield could be a big problem for loss of extra AC, but I am sure they will have some Dire Lord only weapons that will have bonus armor on them to help bridge that gap. My armor mitigation differences were just going off of a similar WoW AC mitigation decrease from plate --> chain --> leather. I would imagine all tanks would have Parry + Dodge, Block is the thing I am not so sure about, as it is probably just a flat % dmg taken off a hit. Maybe then the Dire Lord would be the only class with Riposte to make up for no Block (which would make Riposte > Block). Obviously its all just conjecture, and I understand as said above that the sky is not falling yet!

    • 21 posts
    March 3, 2019 6:20 PM PST

    I wouldn't worry too much about it, each tanks survivability is something that can be tweaked and balanced as the devs get more feedback throughout all the various pre launch phases of the game. The one thing I do think is going to make Dire Lords less desired in at least raid settings is their aggro mechanics. I do like it from a thematic standpoint, but since its a sort of build up over time that gets exponentially larger its going to make things like tank swaps and generating snap aggro if the MT goes down really difficult. Obviously the caveat is we don't have a full picture of all their class abilities so there could be something to plug that hole in their aggro mechanics and even if their isn't they could still function quite well as an add tank due to their powerful self heals.

    • 705 posts
    March 6, 2019 2:03 PM PST

    Fragile said:

    @zoltar

    For the paladin to heal, they must use resources that then take away from threat building, dps'ing, and mitigating abilities (outside of Golden Strike, the paladin heal + invuln).  I think that's where the trade-off is. I can understand where not having a shield could be a big problem for loss of extra AC, but I am sure they will have some Dire Lord only weapons that will have bonus armor on them to help bridge that gap. My armor mitigation differences were just going off of a similar WoW AC mitigation decrease from plate --> chain --> leather. I would imagine all tanks would have Parry + Dodge, Block is the thing I am not so sure about, as it is probably just a flat % dmg taken off a hit. Maybe then the Dire Lord would be the only class with Riposte to make up for no Block (which would make Riposte > Block). Obviously its all just conjecture, and I understand as said above that the sky is not falling yet!

    I'd just like to add that some of the Paladin's heals don't use resources, some trigger from damage dealt, AND healing (more than likely) will generate threat... especially when healing the whole group from damage dealt.  Shields also typically allow for the "block" skill, but they may give the DL the ability to block while using certain weapons or something.  -shrug-  

    • 246 posts
    March 6, 2019 6:34 PM PST

    I just noticed from the last DL stream that the tanking +threat stance also adds +10% dmg reduction (to all dmg) as well. That's pretty major, and an easy knob to turn for balancing.

    • 103 posts
    March 8, 2019 10:32 AM PST

    Fragile said:

    I just noticed from the last DL stream that the tanking +threat stance also adds +10% dmg reduction (to all dmg) as well. That's pretty major, and an easy knob to turn for balancing.

    This appears to be the devs going down the same path they took in VG where the Warrior, Paladin and Dread Lord were all equally viable endgame tanks. Each class had their "tanking" stance that boosted mitigation and agro, as well as a "non-tanking" stance that allowed them to contribute in other ways.

    At the end of the day, as long as each of the 3 tank classes are used in roughly 1/3 of endgame encounters, it doesn't really matter what mechanics are used to achieve that goal. For example, DLs could excel at mitigating single spell damage, and as long as 1/3 of raid mobs require a spell mitigation tank, all is well in the world.

    What's not OK is this notion that 25% extra avoidance or 25% extra self healing is equivalent to 25% extra mitigation. Anyone not understanding the difference has no idea what they are talking about when discussing end game content. 

    • 705 posts
    March 8, 2019 12:21 PM PST

    nscheffel said:

    Fragile said:

    I just noticed from the last DL stream that the tanking +threat stance also adds +10% dmg reduction (to all dmg) as well. That's pretty major, and an easy knob to turn for balancing.

    This appears to be the devs going down the same path they took in VG where the Warrior, Paladin and Dread Lord were all equally viable endgame tanks. Each class had their "tanking" stance that boosted mitigation and agro, as well as a "non-tanking" stance that allowed them to contribute in other ways.

    At the end of the day, as long as each of the 3 tank classes are used in roughly 1/3 of endgame encounters, it doesn't really matter what mechanics are used to achieve that goal. For example, DLs could excel at mitigating single spell damage, and as long as 1/3 of raid mobs require a spell mitigation tank, all is well in the world.

    What's not OK is this notion that 25% extra avoidance or 25% extra self healing is equivalent to 25% extra mitigation. Anyone not understanding the difference has no idea what they are talking about when discussing end game content. 

     

    I agree 100% with both of these statements.  It is refreshing to know (if Fragile is correct) that the DL stance increases mitigation by a % that as he says, is easily dialed.

    • 246 posts
    March 8, 2019 11:08 PM PST

    Taken from the DL stream:

    Nightmare Blood - Alter your blood state, causing it to boil with sinister energy.

    • -Converts 120% of your damage into bonus hate.
    • -Reduces all incoming damage by 10%.

    This is 1 of the 3 'stances' for the class.


    This post was edited by Fragile at March 8, 2019 11:10 PM PST