Forums » The Dire Lord

DireLord unable to wear plate armor?!

    • 78 posts
    June 17, 2018 4:25 PM PDT

     

    Coming from an SK background during EQ, I'm very excited about the DireLord class. Sadly, with the recent update we're told that they're limited to Cloth, Leather and Mail armor. I guess SK is going to be the underdog of the tanking business once again. :(

    Can't you balance the class out and give them plate armor access?! I mean walking around with mail side to side by warriors and paladins (and clerics) in plate is just sad...

     

    • 130 posts
    June 17, 2018 4:32 PM PDT
    Lets see what they come up with there a huge talk on this in the dl fourns
    • 4336 posts
    June 17, 2018 5:13 PM PDT

    The Dire Lord was never advertised as being related to the Shadow Knight at all. People just made that assumption. It's also quite an assumption that DLs will be the underdog of tanking. Based on the abilities we've seen, I think they'll be the go-to tanks for magic-based boss encounters and will be able to hold their own against other mob types due to their self-healing. It will probably end up being a pretty high risk/high reward style due to fluctuating HP that imo lends itself well to the flavor of the DL. It would honestly be sad to "balance the class out and give them plate armor access" because that would reduce the individuality of the class, and be a step toward making every class be able to do everything, which has plagued the MMO genre for years. Plus, remember these aren't complete reveals. There's going to be a lot more going on than meets the eye now. I agree with Raidil - one really ought to wait. These are teasers, not grounds for definitively deciding the viability of a class.

    edit: grammar


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at June 18, 2018 3:23 AM PDT
    • 27 posts
    June 17, 2018 5:32 PM PDT

    I think it makes sense.  Their abilities revolve around their bleeding and causing enemies to bleed.  I would think plate would make it difficult to spread their blood, just like how they use slashing weapons so they can make enemies bleed.

    • 208 posts
    June 17, 2018 5:35 PM PDT

    Let's mention some key points that will still make Dire Lord viable even though they don't share the same armor as other tanks

    1. Health regeneration - increased the less health they have.

    2. Attacks restore health after being critically hit - they tank... so being critically hit probably comes often

    3. Blood type Torrential Vein - MORE health regen.

    Those are just passive abilities.

    They can also do more stuff with their blood that adds armor or creates a shield. Though, its mostly for defense against magic. I think they are still going to be completely viable. In some games, plate wearers take significantly more damage from magic dealers. Idk if thats going to be the exact case here, but it would make sense to have them use chainmail instead of plate if that were to be the case. 

    I don't think they will be any less viable than the other tanks. 

     

     

     

    • 27 posts
    June 17, 2018 6:29 PM PDT
    Also coming from Everquest, I think Shadowknights were an awful class and am delighted to see a different direction. I wonder if these same EQ players were dismayed when Vanguard announced their concept of a Dread Lord? Most Vanguard players have been excited to see the Dire Lord take after their Dread Lord. Any VG players able to comment about the tanking ability of a Dread Lord?
    • Moderator
    • 8618 posts
    June 17, 2018 6:50 PM PDT

    Moved to the DL subforum as it is specific discussion about Dire Lords.

    • 238 posts
    June 17, 2018 9:49 PM PDT

    Some of us have already been talking about this in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/8742/its-here

    I understand people's concern about this, but personally, I'm not worried at all if DLs won't have as much physical mitigation as the other tanks. It looks like they will have better magic mitigation, so to give them the same physical resistance would probably make them overpowered. I think between their magic resistance and self-heals, they are likely to be very solid tanks overall.


    This post was edited by Gyldervane at June 17, 2018 9:52 PM PDT
    • 87 posts
    June 18, 2018 5:36 AM PDT

    I don't think That the Dire Lord needs plate. At the risk of echoing an above poster's words, they're built for non-traditional tanking encounters.

    They're mail wearers. That means that the amount of health they gain back from getting critted and their other self heals will need to make up for the amount of health being lost due to lack of mitigation / evasion. VR knows this, I'm willing to bet, and has balanced the class to tank as well as the other two tanking classes, with decent life taps, decent utility, and a measure of that pixie dust they seem to be putting into everything.

    • 15 posts
    June 18, 2018 8:50 AM PDT

    I am excited to see the tanks specialize in different content and I dont want to see the devs giving DL's plate. It really ads flavor to have the DL offtanking melee's and being the DESIRED MAIN tank, even in end game content, to caster bosses. It would also certainly break the class to give them plate as theyd be super OP for leveling and for the PVP server.

    • 69 posts
    June 20, 2018 6:23 AM PDT

    It's interesting how people have already written of the DL because they cannot wear plate - as if this is some major oversight and that they must be given plate to balance them against the other tanks.....has it not occurred to people that plate was removed from them in order to balance them against other tanks? (not saying it will work out that way, but clearly that is the intent). 

    Likely their stacking debuff will result in mobs doing less damage to them and no doubt they will have an ability that lets them instantly get to max rank (similar to Dreadknight in Vanguard).  Who knows what other abilities may exist.

     

    I do disagree with the arguement that the self heal/regen 'makes up for it' if that is the Devs thoughts, then people are right and it is a flawed design - it was an error made in EQ with regards to Pally and heals too.  Regen/health back on hit/when hit means nothing if the hit kills you due to lower mitigation so it doesn't work.....UNLESS the Dire Lord has a cool passive ability 'Deny Death' in which due to his power over blood he can delay the outcome of a killing blow (in other words a hit that would kill him doesn't do so until all the reactive healing occurs and if that healing would leave him on positive hit points, he is not dead and continues the fight as normal - the delay would be negligible, simply long enough for all effects 'on the stack' to be resolved)

    • 694 posts
    June 20, 2018 9:47 AM PDT
    I just hope their “heavy mail” doesn’t make them look like a ranger in “light mail” or whatever the shaman will likely wear. It’s my personal preference to have my characters in fantasy (DnD like) games wearing plate or leather but I’m vein and also choose my race based on appearance. Most games I’ve played typically have boring or absolutely ugly chain graphics. I get how some people like the “gruesome ogre” look, but I prefer the “Viper vs the Mountain” characters.
    • 31 posts
    June 20, 2018 5:10 PM PDT

    Lets not forget about secondary EHP increases. Baleful Severing mentions the mob not being able to "dodge, parry, block, or riposte" Assuming those are traits we get as well,

    • Dodge: With powers the trigger off crits, it's likely we'll have some dex which probably also means more dodge than the pure STR/CON tanks.
    • Parry: Higher base parry on swords? Maybe higher parry cap on DL?
    • Riposte: in EQ riposte nullified damage and had a free attack. with that higher dex and crit chance, it's more likely that our ripostes feed into Essence Leech for free (no essence cost) self-healing.
    • Fear: I see "fear" in a lot of powers as a quantity, not a binary (increase fear) not (cause enemy to flee in fear) maybe "fear" is a debuff that increases over time. we start spikey but the target does less damage to us as the fight goes on?

    If direct melee is our only threat (poison, disease, and magic don't seem to be), i'm pretty sure our wonderful healers will buff our AC and focus during heavy melee phases. Just like they would for warriors during nuke phases. You know, just make sure to turn off auto-attack during enrage. Like the good ol' days.

    Point is, AC isn't the only dial they can tweak here to balance things out. 

    • 35 posts
    June 21, 2018 1:41 AM PDT

    So no plate, no FD, no pet, and no way to pull, all that for me means no fun. So unless they add something at a later date that increases the classes utility, well, for now it's like Rooster Cogburn used to say "I bow out! I wash my hands!"


    This post was edited by Krakon at June 21, 2018 4:33 PM PDT
    • 4336 posts
    June 21, 2018 3:38 AM PDT

    Just wanted to quote something Joppa said on Twitter in regards to this the other day:

    "The class-related chatter is good for the community overall... even the concerns. With the DL, heavy mail will be quite formidable. Also, these class reveals are not exhaustive - DL's have some mitigation abilities up their sleeves yet to be revealed."

    • 8 posts
    June 23, 2018 7:03 PM PDT

    The only reason everyone is freaking out about the Dire Lord and not being able to wear plate is because other games make you believe that a tank requires plate. This is an entirely new game, with entirely new lore. VR is going to balance the tanking abilities of the tanks. VR has said multiple times that all of the tanks are going to be viable and all tanks are going to be able to do what they are intented to do (tank). I think it is a cool idea that they wear chain. If any of you played EQ you should remember that Iksar SK's could not wear plate. EQ developed the gear so that it was "chain" so that Iksar SK's could wear the same gear as their counterparts come Velious. Same with Iksar Warriors. It will buff out, no point in being worried when the game is still in pre-alpha. VR has 2 years to balance everything before the game releases. I am looking forward to trying out a Dire Lord coming from an Iksar SK. I also like that it isnt a clone of the SK it will be nice to try something new.

    • 103 posts
    June 25, 2018 9:51 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Just wanted to quote something Joppa said on Twitter in regards to this the other day:

    "The class-related chatter is good for the community overall... even the concerns. With the DL, heavy mail will be quite formidable. Also, these class reveals are not exhaustive - DL's have some mitigation abilities up their sleeves yet to be revealed."

    LOL, yeah I'm sure they forgot to mention the fact DLs get additiona mitigation in the class reveals. It's only the most important aspect of being a tank class, so it seems lke something worth mentioning.

    The actual translation:

    Oops, we didn't realize that "after the fact mitigation" through health regen and self heals wasn't effective when performing the role of MT in end game content, so we will be buffing the mitigation of DLs. We don't want to admit we know nothing about tank balance, as evidenced by our devs being complete noob tanks in every single game stream, so we are going to tell you we simply didn't put it in the class reveal.

    • 1653 posts
    June 25, 2018 11:52 AM PDT

    When you start with lol, your argumentation has already a foot in the grave.

    • 745 posts
    June 26, 2018 2:35 PM PDT

    I would love to see some sick scale mail like something akin to a dragon look. 

    • 2476 posts
    June 26, 2018 3:46 PM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    LOL, yeah I'm sure they forgot to mention the fact DLs get additiona mitigation in the class reveals. It's only the most important aspect of being a tank class, so it seems lke something worth mentioning.

    The actual translation:

    Oops, we didn't realize that "after the fact mitigation" through health regen and self heals wasn't effective when performing the role of MT in end game content, so we will be buffing the mitigation of DLs. We don't want to admit we know nothing about tank balance, as evidenced by our devs being complete noob tanks in every single game stream, so we are going to tell you we simply didn't put it in the class reveal.

    If you really think the devs are bumbling idiots then why are you even here? 

  • Wig
    • 209 posts
    June 27, 2018 3:34 PM PDT
    As shaolinmaster pointed out, this is a new game. We have no idea how mitigation works yet.
    • 15 posts
    July 2, 2018 2:50 PM PDT

    Im glad they dont have plate and are magic tanks! I do not think all tanks should be the same!

    • 142 posts
    July 12, 2018 2:25 PM PDT

    Something that I think that is being missed here is that the DL is the only class that is being built to use mail. All the other classes that can use up to mail use light mail. If I had to guess, we're going to see lower AC on the mail, but higher Stam/HP (maybe AGI as well since that can help with AC numbers) to help mitigate the difference. With larger health pools, magic mitigation, blood-based defensive abilities, and the ability to do self-heal I can see a way they will be on par with the other two tanks. This also separates the competition for plate-armor for the other two tanks. My only real concern is that I hope there is enough of a reason for the other two tank classes to not want to take good mail pieces, especially while leveling up, when there is a DL in the mix. This would put the DL at a disadvantage when it comes to gear availability if that ends up being the case. 


    This post was edited by Katalyzt at July 12, 2018 2:26 PM PDT
    • 1653 posts
    July 12, 2018 2:31 PM PDT

    Katalyzt said:

    Something that I think that is being missed here is that the DL is the only class that is being built to use mail. All the other classes that can use up to mail use light mail. If I had to guess, we're going to see lower AC on the mail, but higher Stam/HP (maybe AGI as well since that can help with AC numbers) to help mitigate the difference. With larger health pools, magic mitigation, blood-based defensive abilities, and the ability to do self-heal I can see a way they will be on par with the other two tanks. This also separates the competition for plate-armor for the other two tanks. My only real concern is that I hope there is enough of a reason for the other two tank classes to not want to take good mail pieces, especially while leveling up, when there is a DL in the mix. This would put the DL at a disadvantage when it comes to gear availability if that ends up being the case. 

    I don't really know, putting it that way :

     

    Plate : Warrior, Paladin, Cleric

    Heavy Mail : Dire lord, Warrior, Paladin

    Light mail : Rogue, Ranger, Shaman

    Leather : Monk, Druid, ?

    Cloth : Summoner, Wizard, Enchanter

     

    That seems quite balanced, however, I probably missed any interection between Light mail wearers and Leather wearers, or Leather and cloth. Heavy mail seems like "The Tank only armor", While plate "might" be shared with clerics.

    • 142 posts
    July 12, 2018 2:37 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Katalyzt said:

    Something that I think that is being missed here is that the DL is the only class that is being built to use mail. All the other classes that can use up to mail use light mail. If I had to guess, we're going to see lower AC on the mail, but higher Stam/HP (maybe AGI as well since that can help with AC numbers) to help mitigate the difference. With larger health pools, magic mitigation, blood-based defensive abilities, and the ability to do self-heal I can see a way they will be on par with the other two tanks. This also separates the competition for plate-armor for the other two tanks. My only real concern is that I hope there is enough of a reason for the other two tank classes to not want to take good mail pieces, especially while leveling up, when there is a DL in the mix. This would put the DL at a disadvantage when it comes to gear availability if that ends up being the case. 

    I don't really know, putting it that way :

     

    Plate : Warrior, Paladin, Cleric

    Heavy Mail : Dire lord, Warrior, Paladin

    Light mail : Rogue, Ranger, Shaman

    Leather : Monk, Druid, ?

    Cloth : Summoner, Wizard, Enchanter

     

    That seems quite balanced, however, I probably missed any interection between Light mail wearers and Leather wearers, or Leather and cloth. Heavy mail seems like "The Tank only armor", While plate "might" be shared with clerics.

     

    I think DL gear will be very clear. Wis based plate, however, will be a fight between Pally's and clerics. If "heavy" mail has int, agi, and high stam it will clearly be for a DL and my hope is it will keep the other tank classes from competing for those pieces. If that ends up being even somewhat true, the DL will potentially gear up faster than the other tanks in guilds since they will have less competition. Leveling in groups may end up being a different story, but I don't think we know enough now to really determine that.