Forums » The Dire Lord

Its here

    • 15 posts
    June 16, 2018 6:35 AM PDT
    This reminds me a lot of the Disciple of Khaine from WAR. While this isn’t the dark knight archetype I was hoping for, it has seriously peaked my interest. Looking forward to this.
    • 15 posts
    June 16, 2018 6:57 AM PDT
    A dark myr dire lord would totally complete the look and feel of a DoK. Kinda stoked.
    • 985 posts
    June 16, 2018 8:40 AM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    I'm actually very excited about this reveal. Initially, Paladin was my first pick for tanking, and while I'll still make one I also find myself drawn to the innovation of the DL. 

    Something that has always bugged me about MMOs is how similar the classes are within their roles. Tanks tank the same. Healers heal the same. Sure, there are some differences - such as some tanks have good AoE aggro, some have better single aggro. Some have snap aggro abilities and some build a lot of aggro over time. Some use a shield for defense, some pick up a giant 2-hander. But they all just ...they're all the same. Mitigation is still always physical mitigation. 

    But it looks like DL is trying to break that trend, much like my beloved Warden class in LOTRO did. Without plate, they would need to rely on Lifetaps/lifeleech and avoidance mitigation. They now sound like the underdog tank. The tank that most people are bad at, but when you find a good one, you find a god among tanks. When you're a good Paladin or a good Warrior, they'll say "oh yea, he's/she's a good tank" and people will nod. 

    When you're a good Dire Lord? You'll be called for by name. 

    Getting excited.

    This is an excellent post - and I agree 100%.  The more I read about the class reveals and the meta games within the skillsets/classes - I do believe it will allow a lot of room to highlight player skill.  Even with simple things like /taunting before breaking mes in EQ you could "tell" if a tank was quality or not. Pantheon, at least at the moment, with their innovative class design decisions appears to greatly expand on player's ability being able to shine through and be recognized.

    • 18 posts
    June 16, 2018 8:41 AM PDT

    Mechanics

     

    Extra regen, extra damage, lifetaps, magic resist.

    Worse armour, few absorb samage abilities.

     

    Hmm nice if you're soloing, duoing or PvPing I guess.

     

    Descriptions

    Lord, edged weapons, blood, blood, blood...

     

    This whole thing is a giant Edgelord pun isn't it?

     

    By second character in most MMOs was usually a Black Knight archetype Shadow Knight, Dread Lord, Death Knight et cetera. I don't think it's going to have to be one of the other tanks in this game.

    • 225 posts
    June 17, 2018 9:36 AM PDT

    I really don't think the dire lord's relative lack of physical mitigation is anything to be concerned about; in fact, I would bet it's intended to balance out their extra magic resistance. From reading the reveals, it would seem that the other tanks probably do have higher resistance to physical damage due to shields and heavy armor. But the dire lord, thanks primarily to Sanguine Cloak, will have greater resistance to magic. Since most encounters will probably contain a mixture of physical and magical damage from enemies, it seems to me that dire lords would on average do just as well as the other tanks. Add in their self-healing, and I think we're looking at a very viable tank class overall.

    • 27 posts
    June 17, 2018 10:09 AM PDT
    Is anyone else under the conclusion that just because shields aren't specifically listed doesn't mean that Dire Lords won't be able to use them? Paladin reveal also doesn't list any shields, yet they have an ability; Lightguard, that imbues the paladin's shield. I am not ruling out DLs using shields until there is more direct update that clarifies it.
    • 225 posts
    June 17, 2018 10:47 AM PDT

    Sato said: Is anyone else under the conclusion that just because shields aren't specifically listed doesn't mean that Dire Lords won't be able to use them? Paladin reveal also doesn't list any shields, yet they have an ability; Lightguard, that imbues the paladin's shield. I am not ruling out DLs using shields until there is more direct update that clarifies it.

    Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, and was also wondering if it's a given that they won't be able to wear plate, as the description says "mail," without specifying chainmail or platemail. Whatever the case, I think the devs will do a good job of balancing them out so they're on the same general level as other tanks.


    This post was edited by Gyldervane at June 17, 2018 10:52 AM PDT
    • 99 posts
    June 17, 2018 2:44 PM PDT
    If you look at the ranger and what they have on the shaman you can see 2 lv of mail so there maybe 3 light med and heavy so heavy chain may be equal to light to medium plate or just plate in general. It mite be more to give them a different look . I could see them having 3 lv of all armor under plate as a way to add more content and control to the game . It will be different for sure and it looks as though only the dl would get heavy chain normally sence its there main armor yes paly and war can use but im sure preference would go to the dl.
    • 15 posts
    June 18, 2018 8:53 AM PDT

    I love it, its perfect, So so happy to see that they didnt just make them all tanks the same. DL will be the desired tank for casters, even end game casters. Also keep in mind leveling, giving the DL plate sounds a bit OP

    • 27 posts
    June 18, 2018 9:51 AM PDT
    @Raidil I noticed that also in the initial shaman class update, I'm hoping the varying degrees of chainmail don't affect end game loot tables. If raid bosses drop three different chain pieces on top of cloth, leather, and plate + non armor loot table I could see people getting upset that one of the chain types keeps dropping and no one needs after the 3rd or 4th raid there.
    I would not be opposed if only one chain mail armor piece dropped and depending on whether the the class wore light medium or heavy, different stats were shown. Granted you would need a way to view the different stats for different chain types in case it was going to an alt.
    **this is specifically for raid dropped chainmail pieces. Just throwing out the idea on condensing chainmail pieces on loot tables to help prevent aggravation because only 1 class wears heavy chain mail, one class wears medium chain mail and two classes wear light chain mail.
    • 94 posts
    June 18, 2018 10:03 AM PDT

    Iksar said:

    Too much doom and gloom going around.

     

    We don't have any data suggesting there is a massive difference between heavy mail and plate armor in terms of mitigation. We have no numbers at all even. DL might have 20% higher base HP, double the base regen, the defensive abilities they have might be on lower cooldowns, resources might generate faster than other tanks, etc.

     

    If a warrior is taking 70 DPS and a Dire Lord 100 DPS but the DL regens 10 HPS and leeches 20 HPS via lifesteal/spells then it doesn't seem to me that there would be any major problem. 

    Spoken like someone who has never MTed raid content before...

    MTing cutting edge content is about not getting one-shotted. You can't regen HP if you're dead in a single combat round.

    It's obvious the devs are trying to balance self healing with lower mitigation, and it will make the DL unable to MT end game content. If that's "the vision" for the class, then fine...it just means DLs won't be end game MTs.

    Folks don't have to blindly support whatever the devs toss out there. Players who have MTed for 20 years in numerous games can explain when there's a problem...and they are right.


    This post was edited by nscheffel at June 18, 2018 10:05 AM PDT
    • 99 posts
    June 18, 2018 10:29 AM PDT
    @sato yes i get that but it looks like if u can where medium u can light and the dl just says mail so i would guess thats all types and war and palys get all types.. and from my experience on raids not all raids drop gear for everyone some my only drop a heavy chain some my be only light or possibly leather. Haveing so many lv of gear could mean more bosses to kill more places to need to go. To me having many different raid bosses to get loot from will meaning im not getting bord doing raids. It also means more trade goods it means more.for crafters to skill up. I dont feel having a big loot table that is full of useful stuff is a bad deal. Having one with crap just to fell a box on a mob is .
    • 58 posts
    June 18, 2018 10:31 AM PDT

    nschef, Iksar is right, though, in that we don't have the data to make conclusions on the DL's tanking viability. We don't know the gap in pure mitigation between plate and chain and how effecient the DL can oftset it, particularly when it comes to spike damage. We don't know the details in a lot of the factors that are going to come into play.

     

    Main tanking for 20 years gives someone a lot of experience, but it doesn't necessarily make them an expert. There are a lot of hatracks with decades of experience. Discounting someone else's experience because they don't want to jump on the doom bandwagon doesn't lend any credence to your post. 

     

    To add, there are definitely legitimate concerns being discussed, but until we start seeing how it plays out in testing, it's all speculative.


    This post was edited by Nevron at June 18, 2018 10:32 AM PDT
    • 99 posts
    June 18, 2018 10:32 AM PDT
    And nscheffel i have seen tons of war in raids end game get one shot most cant take a single hit and need a heal chain or on a few times is why rangers got the bad rap u let them take the 1st big hit and die in eq1 after that is just maintain heals on mt
    • 27 posts
    June 18, 2018 10:52 AM PDT
    Maybe what the devs are trying to promote is Not using the same MT for every encounter. I have raided for 7+ years and when we got to new content the first tank pieces would go to our guild's MT. If there is by chance more interactive encounters that more than just surviving one hard hit (you said it yourself, they've made raids that way for 20 years), maybe we will see encounters that each different tank class will excel at. Please don't take all your experience from something that isn't Pantheon and superimpose it into pantheon. None of us know how DL tanking will work end game, so instead of coming at it with negativity please try to keep an open mind. If VR is doing something that you aren't used to, instead of thinking 'This won't work' try asking yourself 'I wonder how they will make this work?'.
    • 99 posts
    June 18, 2018 11:07 AM PDT

    Sato said: Maybe what the devs are trying to promote is Not using the same MT for every encounter. I have raided for 7+ years and when we got to new content the first tank pieces would go to our guild's MT. If there is by chance more interactive encounters that more than just surviving one hard hit (you said it yourself, they've made raids that way for 20 years), maybe we will see encounters that each different tank class will excel at. Please don't take all your experience from something that isn't Pantheon and superimpose it into pantheon. None of us know how DL tanking will work end game, so instead of coming at it with negativity please try to keep an open mind. If VR is doing something that you aren't used to, instead of thinking 'This won't work' try asking yourself 'I wonder how they will make this work?'.

     

    Thats is my hope that each class will have a role at mt. But also just be a good tank. Im hopeing for a lot or radically  different  raids. It would be nice  to have lots of bosses each with a small lot table that only hits a couple of classes each forcing  a guild to raid  a big variety  of bosses  and i hooe some can be don on a mini raid 2 to 3 groups max. I was an old sk and i hope i can bring the skills from that to this class and do well we have some nice starting skill set that we see. Just remember  that not all we will get. . And as for mt it looks like all the tank class have an ability  to take  damage  f rom some one els and share  it. So it may be u have 3 tanks sharing damage  on a boss 

    • 820 posts
    June 18, 2018 11:29 AM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    Iksar said:

    Too much doom and gloom going around.

     

    We don't have any data suggesting there is a massive difference between heavy mail and plate armor in terms of mitigation. We have no numbers at all even. DL might have 20% higher base HP, double the base regen, the defensive abilities they have might be on lower cooldowns, resources might generate faster than other tanks, etc.

     

    If a warrior is taking 70 DPS and a Dire Lord 100 DPS but the DL regens 10 HPS and leeches 20 HPS via lifesteal/spells then it doesn't seem to me that there would be any major problem. 

    Spoken like someone who has never MTed raid content before...

    MTing cutting edge content is about not getting one-shotted. You can't regen HP if you're dead in a single combat round.

    It's obvious the devs are trying to balance self healing with lower mitigation, and it will make the DL unable to MT end game content. If that's "the vision" for the class, then fine...it just means DLs won't be end game MTs.

    Folks don't have to blindly support whatever the devs toss out there. Players who have MTed for 20 years in numerous games can explain when there's a problem...and they are right.

    Spoken like someone who MT's raid content poorly ..... 

    See? I can make baseless (and rude) assumptions, too. 

    This has been said already, and repeated and repeated. Tanks that do not rely on plate armor HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE SUCCESSFULLY. There is precedence. It works. To say otherwise is being blind to the numerous examples out there that prove it can work. Can it be a more difficult class to play? Sometimes it has been, but I'm not afraid of my gameplay being difficult. Player who have MTed for 20 years in numerous games should know there are more than 1 way to create, and play, a tank.

     


    This post was edited by Tralyan at June 18, 2018 11:30 AM PDT
    • 94 posts
    June 18, 2018 11:40 AM PDT

    Nevron said:

    nschef, Iksar is right, though, in that we don't have the data to make conclusions on the DL's tanking viability. We don't know the gap in pure mitigation between plate and chain and how effecient the DL can oftset it, particularly when it comes to spike damage. We don't know the details in a lot of the factors that are going to come into play.

     

    Main tanking for 20 years gives someone a lot of experience, but it doesn't necessarily make them an expert. There are a lot of hatracks with decades of experience. Discounting someone else's experience because they don't want to jump on the doom bandwagon doesn't lend any credence to your post. 

     

    To add, there are definitely legitimate concerns being discussed, but until we start seeing how it plays out in testing, it's all speculative.

    The data we DO have states Warriors will have 20% more mititation. That all by itself should indicate who is going to be the end game single target MT. Anyone who wants to tank the equivalent to Lord Nagafen needs to roll a Warrior, period.

    If they want the Warrior to MT, the Paladin to be the AE/offtank and the DL to be the DPS/solo tank, that's fine. Those are perfectly valid class mechanics.

    Let's just stop pretending that we can't already make those determinations, ok? It's silly to constantly suck up to the devs like this. Being a fanboi homer isn't getting anyone in the game any sooner unless they upgrade their pledge.


    This post was edited by nscheffel at June 18, 2018 11:42 AM PDT
    • 58 posts
    June 18, 2018 11:55 AM PDT

    How is withholding conclusions due to a severe lack of data in any way sucking up to devs and/or being a fanboy homer? My approach to games goes against the majority of this forum. That's just misplaced haterade that has no place in the discussion. 

    Like I said, there are legitimate concerns being discussed; however, we can't make concrete conclusions based on the little data that we have. There are a lot of facets of information missing. 

     Some people may be a little shaken at the prospect of an unorthodox tank with a higher skill ceiling than your typical low-barrier to entry moderate skill ceiling pure armor mitigation tanking. And that's ok! We'll just have to wait and see.


    This post was edited by Nevron at June 18, 2018 11:57 AM PDT
    • 1491 posts
    June 18, 2018 12:09 PM PDT

    Nscheffel said

    The data we DO have states Warriors will have 20% more mititation. That all by itself should indicate who is going to be the end game single target MT. Anyone who wants to tank the equivalent to Lord Nagafen needs to roll a Warrior, period.

    If they want the Warrior to MT, the Paladin to be the AE/offtank and the DL to be the DPS/solo tank, that's fine. Those are perfectly valid class mechanics.

    Let's just stop pretending that we can't already make those determinations, ok? It's silly to constantly suck up to the devs like this. Being a fanboi homer isn't getting anyone in the game any sooner unless they upgrade their pledge.

     

    That's how you make empiric false asumption about very few data on class reveals because all you want to do is raising the awareness of "theses guys are stupid designers and they never thought that giving a stronger mitigation to one tank would lead to making this tank tougher than others".

     

    Basically it's like ranting because a guy poured cold water into a tea-pot by shouting "THIS WILL MAKE THE WATER COLD", no really ? I'll just let you remember theses guys are game designers and, maybe you will understand your asumption are perfectly basic logic, yet everyone already thought of it just by reading or writing it, so no need to make it an alarm like nobody noticed it ?

     

    Yet what we know is that the warrior will have to RAMP UP his mitigation, but we do not know if this flat bonus will remain a flat bonus compared to other tank as we do not know the final AC number they will have. Maybe the warrior will be lower in AC if he cannot maintain his gauge, maybe he will be equal and will start the fight weaker, maybe he will have more or less HP, etc etc...

     

    All we know, is that one of the mechanic of the warrior favoring an active gameplay, will be to manage a gauge to it's maximum to remain at their best in defense. Every other asumption at this level, because all we had are simple tease of main mechanics and abilities, is just bullshit.

    • 420 posts
    June 18, 2018 12:22 PM PDT

    Even EQ1 has moved on from "only Defensive disc WAR need apply" mechanics. Every other MMO with multiple tanking classes, even going back to AO and other 2001-2003 games, can use different tanks effectively on almost all the content. 

    Some bosses may indeed require the ultimate pure AC mitigation tank, but some bosses may require the best AE snap aggro tank who can smooth dmg from multiple sources best, or a stun bot tank who interrupts caster boss the best, or etc or etc.

    Not every boss fight will be a raw AC mitigation tank 'n' spank. Some will be, for sure, but that will not be the one size fits all raid boss of the entire game, nor will raiding be the only challenging content.

    Methinks the fine folks at VR will provide all of the tanking classes with the proper tools and content that make them all rewarding and challenging to play for years to come.


    This post was edited by Venjenz at June 18, 2018 12:23 PM PDT
    • 94 posts
    June 18, 2018 12:40 PM PDT
    I’ve bookmarked this thread. A few months after release I’ll bump it and we can discuss how many end game guilds are using DLs as raid MTs.
    • 1491 posts
    June 18, 2018 12:56 PM PDT

    nscheffel said: I’ve bookmarked this thread. A few months after release I’ll bump it and we can discuss how many end game guilds are using DLs as raid MTs.

    If you paid any attention you would know the forums will change, I don't think the forum will remain or any data won't be wiped away as it's a developer's forum. Quite sorry this detail passed way over your head.

    • 99 posts
    June 18, 2018 1:00 PM PDT

    The data we DO have states Warriors will have 20% more mititation. That all by itself should indicate who is going to be the end game single target MT. Anyone who wants to tank the equivalent to Lord Nagafen needs to roll a Warrior, period.

    If they want the Warrior to MT, the Paladin to be the AE/offtank and the DL to be the DPS/solo tank, that's fine. Those are perfectly valid class mechanics.

    Let's just stop pretending that we can't already make those determinations, ok? It's silly to constantly suck up to the devs like this. Being a fanboi homer isn't getting anyone in the game any sooner unless they upgrade their pledge.

     

    Where did u see 20% more mitigation? I see 20% bounces  tords ac but we have no clue how that will go toward  mitigation.  And mitigation  can be everything  from riposte Perry deflection ect who knows if the dl  in chain wont have higher.. hell its why monks can tank well..

    • 99 posts
    June 18, 2018 1:04 PM PDT

    nscheffel said: I’ve bookmarked this thread. A few months after release I’ll bump it and we can discuss how many end game guilds are using DLs as raid MTs.

    Lol nice