Forums » The Dire Lord

Its here

    • 820 posts
    June 18, 2018 1:12 PM PDT

    Raidil said:

    The data we DO have states Warriors will have 20% more mititation. That all by itself should indicate who is going to be the end game single target MT. Anyone who wants to tank the equivalent to Lord Nagafen needs to roll a Warrior, period.

    If they want the Warrior to MT, the Paladin to be the AE/offtank and the DL to be the DPS/solo tank, that's fine. Those are perfectly valid class mechanics.

    Let's just stop pretending that we can't already make those determinations, ok? It's silly to constantly suck up to the devs like this. Being a fanboi homer isn't getting anyone in the game any sooner unless they upgrade their pledge.

     

    Where did u see 20% more mitigation? I see 20% bounces  tords ac but we have no clue how that will go toward  mitigation.  And mitigation  can be everything  from riposte Perry deflection ect who knows if the dl  in chain wont have higher.. hell its why monks can tank well..

    This is an excellent point. AC is not mitigation, and we have no idea how mitigation will be calculated. 


    This post was edited by Tralyan at June 18, 2018 2:16 PM PDT
    • 58 posts
    June 18, 2018 1:13 PM PDT

    nscheffel said: I’ve bookmarked this thread. A few months after release I’ll bump it and we can discuss how many end game guilds are using DLs as raid MTs.

     

    That's like guessing the Stanley Cup champion at the beginning of the season, then coming back and saying "I told you so!" if you end up being right. Regardless of who's right or wrong in the end, you still don't have the information to make that conclusive determination at this point in time, just like we don't have the informational basis to say that it won't end up how you assume it will.

    • 15 posts
    June 19, 2018 9:59 AM PDT

    Here is how I see it (imagine it) going down....

     

    End Game Magic Encounter Tank (Sanguine/Deafening Lines/Nighrtmare Blood)

    I think everyone can agree there is a good chance DL will be the best viable end game magic encounter type tank...its niche, but hey, awesome.

     

    End Game Physical Encounter Rampage/Primary Offtank (not like you imagine it)  (Dire Mark Ability/Essence Leech or Torrential)

    I dont think you are "main tanking" the primary end game physical bosses that one shot warriors on their best days. I think you are using something like Dire Mark to "offtank" main bosses and absorb 25% of the damage to make main tank damage a little less spikey and going for blood with damage and regen "pun intended"

     

    AOE offtanking: (SPlatter/Nightmare/etc).

    I think there are some niche scenarios that lend itself to a type of aoe tanking or kiting..mostly little nasties? We will see how agro works...I am curious to see hate generation with these various skills...

     

    Big unanswered questions:

    DPS viability -- I am really curious to see what the DPS viability looks like for this class. I think that a solid SK on Everquest was a Top end Tier 2 low end / sometimes Tier 1 DPS class which was amazing and fun. I am not seeing this description jump off the page as Tier 1 Low DPS capability, but we will see...

    Threat management -- I can see there are some single target threat systems, but am curious to see if there are any AOE threat capabilities. Conversely, I am curious to see what type of threat mitigation strategies we have.

     

    Summary: I think the DL will be an effort class with top end players yielding really great DL's. I dont think its a 1 dimensional or easy class and I dont see it being way overpopulated, may even be the rarest or tie pally for the least used. I think some of my big unanswered questions will be very important in determining the popularity of the class. I would NOT expect this class to be an easy ride to the top from low levels without twinking gear, as you come into your own with low end gear and try to group and progress content.

    • 99 posts
    June 19, 2018 11:32 AM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    This is an excellent point. AC is not mitigation, and we have no idea how mitigation will be calculated. 

    Even if 20% more AC only results in 5% more mitigation, guess who MTs end game content?

    Seriously, stop acting like we don't know how class roles in end game content play out.

    The DL is shaping up to be exactly what the EQ Ranger was...the DPS "tank" that could tank in trivial group content, yet couldn't provide enough DPS to warrant a place in raids. It took this same dev team until Luclin/PoP to get Rangers balanced with bow DPS (if this dev team was even still around by then). Until that time, all Rangers did on raids was eat death touches from raid mobs like Cazic and Plane of Sky bosses because they could taunt off the MT and nobody cared if they died.


    This post was edited by nscheffel at June 19, 2018 11:36 AM PDT
    • 596 posts
    June 19, 2018 11:47 AM PDT

    Alexander said:

    I absolutely love the concepts. It's exactly as I had hoped - the Dire Lord being the most damaging, potentially most solo-able (except perhaps Paladins against undeath) of the tanks. It makes sense plate is excluded for those reasons, and also thematically - we will have blood seeping out of our own pores, and that wouldn't work at all with plate. It could work a bit with chain... /anyway

    Now I will hope VR will spend as much care creating their animations as they have done creating such incredibly cool, fresh concepts. Let's see blood animated well, coming off enemies and off ourselves - and hopefully these 'shadow strikes' will be given enough visual substance. Goes for all things, but considering many of these are melee-magic abilities, extra care should be taken to make sure animations are not rushed.

    I love this concept Alexander.  Like others have mentioned, I loved my plate caster, but the idea of blood splattering onto their "Heavy Mail" (Not light mail like ranger) and being absorbed by the DL is thematically cool.  With that being said, I'm hoping that the "heavy mail" is only slightly less tanky than plate and it is more for thematics than anything.  I do love the look of plate in most games though :(

    • 820 posts
    June 19, 2018 11:50 AM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    Tralyan said:

    This is an excellent point. AC is not mitigation, and we have no idea how mitigation will be calculated. 

    Even if 20% more AC only results in 5% more mitigation, guess who MTs end game content?

    Seriously, stop acting like we don't know how class roles in end game content play out.

    The DL is shaping up to be exactly what the EQ Ranger was...the DPS "tank" that could tank in trivial group content, yet couldn't provide enough DPS to warrant a place in raids. It took this same dev team until Luclin/PoP to get Rangers balanced with bow DPS (if this dev team was even still around by then). Until that time, all Rangers did on raids was eat death touches from raid mobs like Cazic and Plane of Sky bosses because they could taunt off the MT and nobody cared if they died.

    That is simply and categorically untrue. The way we know it's false is BECAUSE OTHER MMO'S DO IT. 

    Seriously. Stop acting like we don't know that there is more than one way to tank. It's been done. Issue resolved. 

     

    • 596 posts
    June 19, 2018 11:59 AM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    Tralyan said:

    This is an excellent point. AC is not mitigation, and we have no idea how mitigation will be calculated. 

    Even if 20% more AC only results in 5% more mitigation, guess who MTs end game content?

    Seriously, stop acting like we don't know how class roles in end game content play out.

    The DL is shaping up to be exactly what the EQ Ranger was...the DPS "tank" that could tank in trivial group content, yet couldn't provide enough DPS to warrant a place in raids. It took this same dev team until Luclin/PoP to get Rangers balanced with bow DPS (if this dev team was even still around by then). Until that time, all Rangers did on raids was eat death touches from raid mobs like Cazic and Plane of Sky bosses because they could taunt off the MT and nobody cared if they died.

    I have to agree with Nscheffel here.  AC will most definitely be calculated into mitigation.  It will probably be figured in with the defense skill and the class. i.e. a cleric in plate won't have the same "mitigation" but possibly a very high AC because their defense skill likely will have a lower cap and/or will be calculated differently because of the class/role, but it will most definitely be a factor of mitigation;  Why else distinguish between the different types in a class's core description?

    With that said, since encumberance is also a factor in the game, historically plate weighs more than mail so there's that... maybe :p

    • 820 posts
    June 19, 2018 12:05 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    nscheffel said:

    Tralyan said:

    This is an excellent point. AC is not mitigation, and we have no idea how mitigation will be calculated. 

    Even if 20% more AC only results in 5% more mitigation, guess who MTs end game content?

    Seriously, stop acting like we don't know how class roles in end game content play out.

    The DL is shaping up to be exactly what the EQ Ranger was...the DPS "tank" that could tank in trivial group content, yet couldn't provide enough DPS to warrant a place in raids. It took this same dev team until Luclin/PoP to get Rangers balanced with bow DPS (if this dev team was even still around by then). Until that time, all Rangers did on raids was eat death touches from raid mobs like Cazic and Plane of Sky bosses because they could taunt off the MT and nobody cared if they died.

    I have to agree with Nscheffel here.  AC will most definitely be calculated into mitigation.  It will probably be figured in with the defense skill and the class. i.e. a cleric in plate won't have the same "mitigation" but possibly a very high AC because their defense skill likely will have a lower cap and/or will be calculated differently because of the class/role, but it will most definitely be a factor of mitigation;  Why else distinguish between the different types in a class's core description?

    With that said, since encumberance is also a factor in the game, historically plate weighs more than mail so there's that... maybe :p

    Sure, Darch, but how are you able to admit that AC might be calculated differently between a cleric and a warrior that both wear plate as a result of their class, but say that DL will somehow get the shaft because they don't share the same armor type? AC will either be calculated differently between the two classes, or Block/Parry/Evade and regen will more than make up for it (again, this has been done). B/P/E can more than make up for what little bit of armor mitigation we think they might lose. 

    People are sitting here basing the Dire Lord from a game that isn't even developed yet off of the ranger from a game developed in 1999, and completely ignoring all the iterations in between. Makes no sense. 

    • 1561 posts
    June 19, 2018 1:20 PM PDT

    Also remember AC in Pantheon will not be a raw damage reduction, but influence the odds of getting hit for less, pretty much like it was in EQ1. Even a best geared tank will be susceptible to a bad streak of max damage hit, and as said, a mitigation working like that is as reliable as avoidance, and will not account as much as raw damage reduction like it does in MMO now on.

     

    However, theses are just guesses since the game is far to have unveiled all it's mechanics, and no one can cry yet without a sight of the big picture here.

    • 15 posts
    June 19, 2018 7:08 PM PDT
    Lmao I type up a nice post analyzing different combinations of skill sets and some guy that is still traumatized from playing a ranger starts posting ahead of me. This is why we can’t have nice things rip
    • 27 posts
    June 19, 2018 9:36 PM PDT
    @cukernaut it was a very throughout and well written post. I read it several times when I refreshed the page this last day and a half. I didn't even think of the the AoE offtanking situation until you mentioned it and had the double check the abilities you listed. DL will definitely have a big benefit in groups and raids. I'm just sorry to see one forum poster who is upset he can't MT every encounter and is distracting from the legitimate conversations.
    • 69 posts
    June 20, 2018 6:43 AM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    Tralyan said:

    This is an excellent point. AC is not mitigation, and we have no idea how mitigation will be calculated. 

    Even if 20% more AC only results in 5% more mitigation, guess who MTs end game content?

    Seriously, stop acting like we don't know how class roles in end game content play out.

    If provoking Phantoms works anyway like it Dreadful Visage did in Vanguard then that in itself would likely make up for the lack of plate a DL wears - in fact better at end game because the effect would reduce the mobs effectivenes as opposed to directly effecting the DLs (so things like armor cap don't limit the effect)

    What if end game tanks are reaching the AC soft cap? The 20% War boost would become negligible.

    The Ranger in EQ1 as an offtank was laughable because the only thing he had was a Taunt which was not going to magically make him a tank.  Even from the skills we see so far it is clear the DL will be a capable tank with plenty of tools at his disposal - now it may still mean come end game the War is favorite (personally I always make that assumption anyway) but I don't see the DL being an EQ Ranger.

     

    We have only seen a snapshot of the skills.  It really depends on other tools in a tanks toolkit.  In Vanilla WoW Paladin had a talent that increased armour value by 10%....anyone remember how popular Paladin's were for tanking?

    • 99 posts
    June 20, 2018 1:19 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    That is simply and categorically untrue. The way we know it's false is BECAUSE OTHER MMO'S DO IT. 

    Seriously. Stop acting like we don't know that there is more than one way to tank. It's been done. Issue resolved. 

    LOL, talking about face roll MMOs where "tanks" are tanks in name only doesn't really apply here. This game is going to follwo the EQ/VG paradigm, as stated numerous times by devs from Day 1.

    Evasion tanks don't work due to spike damage. Self healing tanks don't work, again due to spike damage. 

    Any raid boss that can't one shot anyone other than a properly geared MT isn't an encounter where we care about tank balance. Nobody cares who tanks the mob when anyone can tank it...that is trivial and isn't even a consideration when MTs discuss balance.

    Seriosuly. Stop acting like you have any idea how to tank in real MMOs like EQ1 and VG. 


    This post was edited by nscheffel at June 20, 2018 1:19 PM PDT
    • 820 posts
    June 20, 2018 2:20 PM PDT

    nscheffel said:

    LOL, talking about face roll MMOs where "tanks" are tanks in name only doesn't really apply here. This game is going to follwo the EQ/VG paradigm, as stated numerous times by devs from Day 1.

    Evasion tanks don't work due to spike damage. Self healing tanks don't work, again due to spike damage. 

    Any raid boss that can't one shot anyone other than a properly geared MT isn't an encounter where we care about tank balance. Nobody cares who tanks the mob when anyone can tank it...that is trivial and isn't even a consideration when MTs discuss balance.

    Seriosuly. Stop acting like you have any idea how to tank in real MMOs like EQ1 and VG. 

    Y'know, go into other MMO forums out there and start flinging around adorable little accusations about what a person has or hasn't done, or what MMO a person has or hasn't played, and you may not come off so silly. But to say folks around here haven't all played EQ or Vanguard, on various timelines and various classes, is pretty cute. 

    1. You don't know how AC will be calculated between classes. 

    2. You aren't factoring health pools between classes.

    3. You aren't factoring in block or parry variables between classes.

    4. It's already been done successfully. 

    And the most important part here ...there were factors in EQ that definitely made it harder than other MMO's, but raids? Really?

    EQ raids really just weren't that hard. Sorry to pop that little self-righteous bubble of yours. 


    This post was edited by Tralyan at June 20, 2018 2:21 PM PDT
    • 27 posts
    June 20, 2018 2:45 PM PDT
    Things are getting slightly heated. This should help clarify some of the sensitive subjects-

    Kilsin said:
    FYI for those who missed it, Joppa was asked on Twitter about Tank viability:

    Question:

    Redpill "Dragon Energy" Shark‏ @RedPillShark

    Will all classes be "Raid tank-able" or more warrior or bust in raids?

    Answer:

    Chris Perkins‏ @Joppa_VR

    Replying to @RedPillShark @PantheonMMO
    Yes. The goal is for all 3 Tanks to be viable Raid tanks. Only caveat is some will shine a bit more than the others in specific encounters, or specific moments within encounters. But at their core, they will all 3 be suitable for the job.

    @nscheffel unless you know than more information than has already been released and are merely speculating, no one is really accepting you as a reliable source of reference and you are wasting their time just trying to correct your narrow mindset on MTs in MMOs. Its 2018, prove me wrong.
    • 365 posts
    June 20, 2018 3:15 PM PDT

    I have a feeling there will be ultra super bosses of different types - some oriented toward magic, and perhaps the DL will be the only viable main tank for them. Then others which deal the most physical damage, where warriors would be the main tank. And we all but know there will be hardcore undead bosses - the paladins will handle them. Maybe a part of the concern, nscheffel, is the most hardcore bosses will be maximum physical damage dealers requiring a warrior mt. But that's an "if", master scheff!

    And what about this - a dragon ultimaboss that has both crazy-maximal physical and magical attacks? Maybe a warrior would have to tank the physical assault, and the DL would need to tank its magical attacks? Perhaps a boss could switch to a magic attack which would one-shot a warrior but not a DL.


    This post was edited by Alexander at June 20, 2018 3:37 PM PDT
    • 2356 posts
    June 20, 2018 4:08 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    With that said, since encumberance is also a factor in the game, historically plate weighs more than mail so there's that... maybe :p

    I don't think the AC difference between heavy mail and plate should be too major. While plate offers more protection mail armor was still extremely effective historically, far more than most people give it credit for. 

    • 255 posts
    August 5, 2018 4:54 PM PDT

    Today's stream showcasing the current version of the Dire Lord in play.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FXXE4IWu6k