One thing about Black Rose Keep that kind of bugs me..
I uneerstand wanting to make zones or areas that are multi leveled but,
I for one wouldnt expect to guard my keep with such low level defenders.
I understand cannon fodder but it just dont seem right that it would be
guarded by such a lower level character. Personally I would think the lower
level toons would be more like listening post guards out a bit from the keep,
Maybe a moat filled with alligators and a draw bridge that has gate guards that
need to be taken out to get the gate key, and guards at the front of the keep
that would have a key to the keep. Maybe Im thinking to big, maybe more castlesque.
Just doesnt make sense to have such a low level comparison from front gate to innner
sanctum to me... can I live with it? Sure.. just has a feel of, too easy to access the keep
to me, than what would make sense.
Im a Marine so Im very tactically minded.
And you have a couple body guards with important persons, such as officers and especially Generals.. and theyre highly trained yes, but if someone gets THAT far, the battles done and those guards and that General are gonna die...
Thats real world tactics, you dont let the enemy breach your defensive perimeter. But, in MMOs I understand this mechanic wouldnt work and we have elite guards and many of them protecting bosses.
Thats not my beef. Its the level range from the front door being so low in comparison. And understand this is just my opinion and Im making a conversation point. Food for thought.
That is why they call it a fantasy game. Otherwise, we would all have to race to max level to barely leave our starting cities.
There are things that don't follow real world rules for the sake of gameplay. It has to be that way or we'd all be killing rabbits and squirrels for 50 levels.
Have to suspend belief a little bit. For the benefit of the player experience and the zone, it just makes more sense that the mobs scale the further in you go. Your complaints in terms of realism are legitimate, but I think going with realism here would make the dungeon penetration and crawl less enjoyable.
vigilantee13 said:Im a Marine so Im very tactically minded.
And you have a couple body guards with important persons, such as officers and especially Generals.. and theyre highly trained yes, but if someone gets THAT far, the battles done and those guards and that General are gonna die...
Thats real world tactics, you dont let the enemy breach your defensive perimeter. But, in MMOs I understand this mechanic wouldnt work and we have elite guards and many of them protecting bosses.
Thats not my beef. Its the level range from the front door being so low in comparison. And understand this is just my opinion and Im making a conversation point. Food for thought.
I am a Marine too. So, Semper Fi brother. Anyways, I never had to guard any officers or higher ups, they were all too scared to do what we did lol. Anyways, when I was deployed we always used the dumb ones to guard the perimiter, mostly because nobody trusted them outside the wire. We had all kinds of i guess you could say tactical forces inside, not all of us were out at all times. And that was mostly to protect the base in case of a perimiter breach. But we did have people like me going out and doing tasks or missions, mostly to cripple the enemy then coming back at some point, but I rarely went back lol. Anyways, what I'm getting at is they got it right, but there should be random patrols and stuff sent out that are better and smarter, and usually set out on a specific mission. Like if the base was attacked, rest assured me and my squad would be geared up and heading to bring the fight to them, that is as long as the perimiter guard was smart enough to radio it in. But you would most likely hear gunshots too.
Semper Fi Dubah!
I understand suspending belief and that this is a fantasy game, I believe I sated that already and what Im speaking about has nothing to do with killing rabbits til level 50.
I wanted to spark ideas for consideration as to my arguement for tuning a more realistic keep defense.
I really like Dubahs suggestion of random patrols coming and going with some slightly higher level characters. That would make a ton of sense and keep lowbies near the entrance on their toes, rather than keeping a static spawn camp situation.
Another note Dubah hit on that I would suggest is the alarmist disposition being something I feel in a keep scenario would be a difficult but realistic challenge. Meaning it would be hard for other units to not hear fighting going on... but of ciurse we dont want the whole keep descending on a party either.
Again, just looking for constructive feedback and suggestions that the devs could consider adding to make the game even more awesome.
Nothing earth shattering needed, sometimes simple changes make big impacts.
-Vig
Let's say the dungeon has multiple avenues to take. The right side is full of lower level mobs and is more open in nature while a left passageway is guarded by high level mobs and leads to a system of tunnels. We can have certain high level mobs leave their high level area and walk around the right side of the zone (which has enough room for low levels to stay in some corner to not get aggro).
The area outside the zone entrance can be a complex mash of low level mobs mixed with random high levels to at least give the player a feeling that intruding into a very hostile fortress is not just like going to your neighbor's house.
There could be a time-based spawning system that changes the types of guards there are. The front gate guards of a zone could be greater in number but less powerful during the day while at night there are fewer, higher level guards. The most sensitively guarded locations could have a healer and other spellcasters while the melee damage of the guards themselves are lowered in exchange for more AC and effects like snare and knockback to keep players from attacking the spellcasters.
Having a few guard mobs that just go into defensive position rather than chase players could be a good change. There can be a situation where the guards at the gate will not move and will be harder to take down at range until a warrior decides to stay on the mob, which turns off their defensive stance. There could be a hidden entrance somewhere that allows more offensive fighters to attack players who take too long to get past the guards. This likely will prevent ungrouped players from entering, so it's best to make the guardian spawn timer take hours rather than minutes. Players that are leaving the zone and are too weak to deal with the guards can be given a different exit that allows one to jump off a wall or something into an area full of bushes that has no mobs around,
The mobs guarding the zone could be high level, but the content inside could be for newer players. Higher level players could continuously "escort" lower level ones into the zone while also dealing with their own high level content inside it.
There are some decent ideas posted here. I definitely like the idea of high level roamers that path through lower level areas. Lower level characters would have to choose their camp locations carefully and be extra careful while pulling. The idea of having much stronger mobs guarding the gate at night is also cool.
There is a pretty long history in books, stories, movies etc. - NOT at all in real life - of putting your least competent, least valuable and most expendable personnel in the most vulnerable positions. It's particularly evident among the bad guys in such stories. It makes a certain 'cut throat' logic to me. When the enemy attacks, the guys on the perimeter are likely to take a serious hit of caualties. The imcompetent among them will at LEAST serve the purpose of alerting those inside by the sound of their deaths, while allowing more skilled troops inside the time to respond. As an added bonus, it serves as a useful test of new recruits. Anyone who survives a while in that position proves that he has some skills, and can be promoted to a more secure position.
Agreed that this may not resemble any real life scenario, but it's a trope I'm long familiar with.
Ok. I had to go back and watch Hiveleader stream from the start to see what was going on. After seeing the OP, I was like I get what you are saying etc, but....
So, after watching the begining, I see them approach the building, recruits are outside, near bonfires etc. To me, that seems correct. Wouldn't the grunts have to stand outside in the weather while the 4 star generals were inside with their feet propped up in a office?
I saw Black Rose Keep as more of a monastery monk-ish type "school". Recruits are near the doors, being servants. As soon as they were inside, Archan Mages and Watchmen were in the Very first pulls. After all, near the front door was lava rocks and a dinner table. Recruits would be in charge of keep the rocks hot and making dinner and doing all the cooking and cleaning.
Right after the dinner table, they went around the corner and Fiona was there. a Boss. 50 yards from the front door, patrolling a large area.
I guess I don't see anything wrong with the set up here. I see it as, laborer or lowbies are "in the main areas that don't house many secrets" (except of course whats in the noodle soup) and deeper in is where higher ranks are found, doing more important things than setting a dinner table and tending hot rocks. /shrug ;p
IIRC they mentioned that the first level was the lower-ish level but going up to the second balcony from the dining/lava rocks area was a higher level.
I think the idea was to have higher and lower levels in the same area and aware of each other. I personally like that dynamic because I imagine going there as a lower level and being conforted in seeing higher levels on the upper balconies- fighting and keeping the occasional higher level roamer from heading downstairs on its normal path. Likewise the higher levels would like seeing a lower level group downstairs because the lower level groups would also be fighting the wanderers and preventing nuisance adds from wandering up to the balconies.
I do hope there are a few alarmist type mobs, maybe as "scouts" , or even just monsters that run at 20pct health through higher levels. causing each monster they pass to start running toward the group. Yes that kind of sounds like an auto-train but I feel it adds spice. Nothing like the fear that comes from suddenly being confronted by a charmer type monster and everyone in the group is mezzed and there is a small crowd of monsters waiting around, walking inbetween you, just waiting....just because we let one runner get away.
Maybe we can have a White Rose Keep too. Apart from the White Rose being a major figure in some of the Black Company books, there is the obvious historical reference to the wars of the roses.
Each keep can give rewards for harming the other (assuming they are antagonistic, of course). There can be merchants petaling their wares. If you actually burn a keep down you can get the title "Flowering Inferno". Of course at-level this should be a very thorny problem. Best if both keeps survive trying hard to stem the advance of the other or at least get the other to leaf it alone. This may not make an A-quality raid but surely bee-quality.
dorotea said:Maybe we can have a White Rose Keep too. Apart from the White Rose being a major figure in some of the Black Company books, there is the obvious historical reference to the wars of the roses.
Each keep can give rewards for harming the other (assuming they are antagonistic, of course). There can be merchants petaling their wares. If you actually burn a keep down you can get the title "Flowering Inferno". Of course at-level this should be a very thorny problem. Best if both keeps survive trying hard to stem the advance of the other or at least get the other to leaf it alone. This may not make an A-quality raid but surely bee-quality.
Or White rose keep is hidden, unknown at first but discoverable in an already existing city. "The blood, the thorn, the beauty, he scorn/ The soul, the flower, the humble, the power" and maybe quadrangle faction out against white rose, black rose, dragons and undead to make it meta. How cool would it be, or how hard! to get undead faction if you are not undead yourself?
It would have been interesting if they had made two entrances into the keep for exactly this reason. The front gate would have high level guards, but there would be a "secret" entrance through the sewers, or somesuch, for the lower level players. That would fall more in line with the reality of keep defenses.
But, either way, I'm not too fussed about it. If they did that to blackrose keep, wouldn't that have to do that with most other dungeons/keeps/castles as well? Those things are novelties, but would cease being a novelty if done for every castle and keep.
dorotea said:There can be merchants petaling their wares. If you actually burn a keep down you can get the title "Flowering Inferno". Of course at-level this should be a very thorny problem. Best if both keeps survive trying hard to stem the advance of the other or at least get the other to leaf it alone. This may not make an A-quality raid but surely bee-quality.
I beleaf a comedian has taken root in the fertile soil of the forums and is beginning to sprout!