Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Time for a head count!

    • 81 posts
    June 8, 2018 10:00 AM PDT

    I prefer PVE. I sometimes pick RP servers because they generally have a more mature player base. 

    I do like to dabble in PVP though. It worries me that I may only be able do that on a PVP server. As a guildie we had great times organising team arena events in EQ 1. I saw it as a really useful guild social function to be able to arrange PVP tournaments.

    • 1 posts
    June 8, 2018 10:35 AM PDT

    PvE player all the way. It's almost impossible to balance both sides of a game well, imho. So PvE centered I stay.

    • 1095 posts
    June 8, 2018 10:39 AM PDT

    I like some PVP in arenas and dueling. As far as a PVP server, I enjoyed Sullon Zek ruleset where a level 50 could kill a level 6. It was also alighnment based and the play nice polices did not exist.

    • 107 posts
    June 8, 2018 11:11 AM PDT

    PvE.

     

    I roleplay, but mostly within myself. for example, my main in VG was a minor noble playing the houses of new targonor against each other to gain power. With alts as Officers/Advisors/Spies. The only times I have RPed was when my mates I had mentored unlocked jedi's in SWGs (I had unlocked early)

     

    PvP in a repercussionless environment too often brings out the worst instincts of humanity. Make no mistake, if the worse thing that can happen is you get a permaban and have to make a new account, it is repercussionless.

    • 1095 posts
    June 8, 2018 1:21 PM PDT

    alephen said: 

    PvP in a repercussionless environment too often brings out the worst instincts of humanity. Make no mistake, if the worse thing that can happen is you get a permaban and have to make a new account, it is repercussionless.

    Guess you have never seen a Glowing Paladin come into the fray swinging his 2hs in greater fay to protect someone. For the opptunity for great evil gives the same for great good.

    Ignoring evil in Humanity only prevents the good from recieving honor.


    This post was edited by Aich at June 8, 2018 1:23 PM PDT
    • 769 posts
    June 8, 2018 3:09 PM PDT

    Venjenz said:

    Louden said:

    In the spirit of #communitymatters, I’d challenge others to advocate for inclusion not only in Pantheon’s game design but also in how we interact as a community.  If a mechanic is added that doesn’t impact your experience but truly enhances someone else’s, you should be happy for them.  

    Thing is...almost every developer who has PVP with PVE ends up wrecking class mechanics for PVE because of all the "developers hate my class, we are unblanaced in PVP #hatethisgame #devsuck" griping that ends up on the forums. Things like root, snare, fear, harm, stun, slow, big alpha attacks like backstab/HT/MB/etc get nerfed. 

    And every developer says "oh, we won't let PVP decisions affect PVE" but they always do. It isn't the playstyle that people dislike, it's the wrecking of PVE that causes the problem. This story has been played out in too many MMOs with near perfectly reliable and repeatable results. Start off with great intentions, and half a dozen patch cycles later, PVE is whitewashed so that PVP can appear balanced. 

    #pvematters #classdifferencesmatter #classesareunique

    Exactly so. I understand your view there, Louden. It would be great if we could, with 100% certainty, have both kinds of servers without the fear of either one affecting the other as far as class balance and game mechanics, but that simply is not the case. It's happened over, and over, and over again, and is a very valid concern for PVE'ers - the clientele Pantheon is aimed towards - to have. 

    There's a reason most (any?) PvP-focused games don't really have separate PVE only servers. They just don't mix well. 

    • 159 posts
    June 8, 2018 4:40 PM PDT

    PvE for sure. I've dabbled with PvP occasionally and had much fun, but I do think it brings a much sharper and nastier edge to a game, not to mention the balancing difficulties and possible impacts on other areas of the game.

    I don't really RP much besides inhabiting the bodies of my heroes. I guess I see myself as a puppet master more than a character in the world. This isn't to say I don't appreciate rich lore, or well-crafted quests with real consequences depending on your choices.

    • 107 posts
    June 8, 2018 6:16 PM PDT

    Zeem said:

    alephen said: 

    PvP in a repercussionless environment too often brings out the worst instincts of humanity. Make no mistake, if the worse thing that can happen is you get a permaban and have to make a new account, it is repercussionless.

    Guess you have never seen a Glowing Paladin come into the fray swinging his 2hs in greater fay to protect someone. For the opptunity for great evil gives the same for great good.

    Ignoring evil in Humanity only prevents the good from recieving honor.

    mine was simply a reason for why i do not pvp. 

    enough griefers and trolls in the real world. i personally do not play games to be around more. more teamwork, helping, socializing, etc happens in pve then pvp. pvp can be great for honing skills and competing against less predictable opponents, there can be real enjoyment there, but I was in the U.S. Army (11B-infantry) so i have trouble even with how seriously some of the PvPers get, for example the pve = carebear types.

    as for your apparently accusatory philosophical statement: avoiding is not the same as ignoring, and good does not seek honor.

     

     

    • 1992 posts
    June 8, 2018 6:26 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    ...It would be great if we could, with 100% certainty, have both kinds of servers without the fear of either one affecting the other as far as class balance and game mechanics, but that simply is not the case.

    I'm really trying to understand this position, which I've heard others besides you say.

    To be clear, are you saying that the technology somehow doesn't allow complete separation of the rulesets for different servers, such that changes to the PvP servers cause unintended changes to the PvE servers?

    Or are you saying that some behavioral principle always causes the developers to make changes to the PvE servers for the sake of 'improving' the PvP gameplay?

    Or have I missed it entirely and you're saying something else?

    • 159 posts
    June 9, 2018 12:27 AM PDT

    Louden said:

    In the spirit of #communitymatters, I’d challenge others to advocate for inclusion not only in Pantheon’s game design but also in how we interact as a community.  If a mechanic is added that doesn’t impact your experience but truly enhances someone else’s, you should be happy for them.  

    Venjenz said:

    Thing is...almost every developer who has PVP with PVE ends up wrecking class mechanics for PVE because of all the "developers hate my class, we are unblanaced in PVP #hatethisgame #devsuck" griping that ends up on the forums. Things like root, snare, fear, harm, stun, slow, big alpha attacks like backstab/HT/MB/etc get nerfed. 

    And every developer says "oh, we won't let PVP decisions affect PVE" but they always do. It isn't the playstyle that people dislike, it's the wrecking of PVE that causes the problem. This story has been played out in too many MMOs with near perfectly reliable and repeatable results. Start off with great intentions, and half a dozen patch cycles later, PVE is whitewashed so that PVP can appear balanced. 

    #pvematters #classdifferencesmatter #classesareunique

    Agreed on the (almost) inevitable creeping of PvP into PvE rules. But I disagree about the playstyle. As I've said elsewhere, I've had much fun with PvP in other games, but it brings a great deal of nastiness with it. In ESO PvP was plagued with cheating, exploiting and zerging to the point that I abandoned it completely. Competitive gameplay will do that, and a "laissez faire" attitude from the publisher that refused to punish anti-competitive behaviour just enables it. It was seriously disgusting for me talking about serious issues with other players who resorted to arguments such as "hey, if the game code lets me do something that wasn't intended, you can't call it an exploit and say I can't do it".

    I respect people who just want to go against other people in game and play fair, but even those must realise that many in the PvP community are toxic to the game overall. At least that is my experience. Going back to what Louden said... this is an argument for keeping PvP out of the game, or giving it separate servers and essentially forgetting about it.

     

    PS: forum is acting up, seems I can't use nested quotes...


    This post was edited by daemonios at June 9, 2018 12:28 AM PDT
    • 7 posts
    June 9, 2018 5:57 AM PDT

    PVE only please... My time is too limited to spend it dealing with griefers. 

    PVE only please..  I love a good story, PvE advances a story line

    I will be blunt, I actually look for games that have a financial barrier for entry, this is so I don't have to deal with people who's only goal is to mess with other people.  While the barrier for entry helps, PvE only solves the issue for the most part.

    • 123 posts
    June 9, 2018 6:26 AM PDT

    PvE only (RP or not), not interested in PvP.

    • 7 posts
    June 9, 2018 11:39 AM PDT

    Pve and Pvp

    • 21 posts
    June 9, 2018 12:36 PM PDT

    PvP in the vein of an EQ Zek or Vanguard Sartok server would be really nice. None of that supposedly 'competitive' PvP that WoW and it's clones try to do. I really do miss Zek and Sartok style PvP, I don't expect it to be fair, or have 'rewards' (PvP is it's own reward) It's just another way to add excitement and role play opportunities to the world. After playing on Zek and Sartok I saw the game in a new light and lots of abilities that rarely got used on non pvp servers were part of the mainstay on PvP.

    I understand not everyone likes PvP and certainly understand the concerns of PvP affecting PvE, however this group of developers doesn't really have a track record of letting PvP drive PvE changes, and as long as they stay away from the delusions that MMORPG should be a competitive e-sport I don't think it will be a problem.

    • 88 posts
    June 9, 2018 12:50 PM PDT

    I understand your view there, Louden. It would be great if we could, with 100% certainty, have both kinds of servers without the fear of either one affecting the other as far as class balance and game mechanics, but that simply is not the case. It's happened over, and over, and over again, and is a very valid concern for PVE'ers - the clientele Pantheon is aimed towards - to have. 

    There's a reason most (any?) PvP-focused games don't really have separate PVE only servers. They just don't mix well. 

    This first statement isn't meant to be disrespectful just to make a point. The developers have stated on multiple occasions, including the initial post in this thread, there will be at least one PvP server at launch and therefore there is no need for me to argue in support of something that is already slated to occur.


    Now, to your point regarding balance, classes are buffed and nerfed in all MMOs regardless of focus, be it PvP or PvE. As the developers have stated abilities will operate separately in PvP then they do in PvE, I will take them at their word until proven otherwise. For the record, if this isn't the case I will join you to advocate against PvP changes affecting PvE.


    To your other point, the reason PvP-focused games don't have separate PvE servers is that PvP focused games are light on content including meaningful PvP. I personally look for games that offer both or what I consider complete games.  I'd also consider this to be the norm as the vast majority of MMOs with any significant market share offer both PvE and PvP.  


    And just to share some irony, when our team moved from SWTOR to GW2, the GW2 community called us out for being a PvE guild, now flash forward to Pantheon and we've the evil PvPers.
    #LoudenLikesBoth, #Don'tPutMeInABox        

    • 6 posts
    June 9, 2018 1:55 PM PDT

    PVE and sometimes a splash of PVP

    • 111 posts
    June 10, 2018 1:48 AM PDT

    Pvp here....not so fan of FFA-modus, prefer race-pride / faction-team based PVP.

     

     

     

     

    • 48 posts
    June 10, 2018 4:16 AM PDT

    Def PvE here!

    • 2 posts
    June 10, 2018 9:25 AM PDT

    PvE Here.

    • 1 posts
    June 10, 2018 11:08 AM PDT

    FFA PvP server here! adds a lot more excitement for me. Someone camping my area for loot... do I atk or leave... do I join him...? ":D way more options in a PvP server when questing and grinding for loot.

    • 769 posts
    June 11, 2018 12:14 PM PDT

    Jothany said:

    Tralyan said:

    ...It would be great if we could, with 100% certainty, have both kinds of servers without the fear of either one affecting the other as far as class balance and game mechanics, but that simply is not the case.

    I'm really trying to understand this position, which I've heard others besides you say.

    To be clear, are you saying that the technology somehow doesn't allow complete separation of the rulesets for different servers, such that changes to the PvP servers cause unintended changes to the PvE servers?

    Or are you saying that some behavioral principle always causes the developers to make changes to the PvE servers for the sake of 'improving' the PvP gameplay?

    Or have I missed it entirely and you're saying something else?

    If I had to pick, I'd say the second one. 

    I don't think it's a technology thing, frankly. Maybe it's just a ... math thing? Heck, I don't know why it is, but I think most of us can agree that it happens. When something happens with reliable consistency, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable for people to be worried about it happening again. The "why" doesn't matter here so much as the "when". 

    I don't know why balancing is such an issue, but when PvP and PvE mix, an issue it indeed becomes. People are understandably worried about it as a result. 

     

    Louden said:

    I understand your view there, Louden. It would be great if we could, with 100% certainty, have both kinds of servers without the fear of either one affecting the other as far as class balance and game mechanics, but that simply is not the case. It's happened over, and over, and over again, and is a very valid concern for PVE'ers - the clientele Pantheon is aimed towards - to have. 

    There's a reason most (any?) PvP-focused games don't really have separate PVE only servers. They just don't mix well. 

    This first statement isn't meant to be disrespectful just to make a point. The developers have stated on multiple occasions, including the initial post in this thread, there will be at least one PvP server at launch and therefore there is no need for me to argue in support of something that is already slated to occur.


    Now, to your point regarding balance, classes are buffed and nerfed in all MMOs regardless of focus, be it PvP or PvE. As the developers have stated abilities will operate separately in PvP then they do in PvE, I will take them at their word until proven otherwise. For the record, if this isn't the case I will join you to advocate against PvP changes affecting PvE.


    To your other point, the reason PvP-focused games don't have separate PvE servers is that PvP focused games are light on content including meaningful PvP. I personally look for games that offer both or what I consider complete games.  I'd also consider this to be the norm as the vast majority of MMOs with any significant market share offer both PvE and PvP.  


    And just to share some irony, when our team moved from SWTOR to GW2, the GW2 community called us out for being a PvE guild, now flash forward to Pantheon and we've the evil PvPers. 
    #LoudenLikesBoth, #Don'tPutMeInABox        

    That's a fair point, Louden, about irony. Certainly not trying to put people in a box. 

    As to your point about nerfs and and buffs happening regardless of whether there is PvP or not, it's not really so much about nerfs and buffs. It's about the need for balancing, and that balancing causing a homogenization of classes. One thing I'm really looking forward to with Pantheon is class interdependence. That tends to go by the wayside in the interest of PvP "balancing". Nerf or buff me all you want, as long not all classes are "equal" in the realm of PvP. 

    I'd very much like to take VR at their word, too - but a healthy dose of skepticism by the PVE population isn't completely unreasonable, given the history of PVE being balanced in the name of PVP for so many other MMO titles out there. I think the discussion is important to have. 

    If VR is able to have both PVE and PvP servers without either one affecting the other, I'll be the first one to congratulate and support it. I just worry that won't be the case. 

     

    =Edit= Man, I hope the quotes get fixed soon. What a mess. 


    This post was edited by Tralyan at June 11, 2018 12:22 PM PDT
    • 14 posts
    June 11, 2018 3:09 PM PDT
    Does anyone have examples from EverQuest specifically where the PvP servers balancing directly impacted PvE servers? I must have been so absorbed I didn't realize this was going on during my 7 years on TZ/Zek.
    • 88 posts
    June 11, 2018 6:24 PM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    That's a fair point, Louden, about irony. Certainly not trying to put people in a box. 

    As to your point about nerfs and and buffs happening regardless of whether there is PvP or not, it's not really so much about nerfs and buffs. It's about the need for balancing, and that balancing causing a homogenization of classes. One thing I'm really looking forward to with Pantheon is class interdependence. That tends to go by the wayside in the interest of PvP "balancing". Nerf or buff me all you want, as long not all classes are "equal" in the realm of PvP. 

    Our goals for Pantheon are much closer than you realize.  Like many people, I hope Pantheon is a throwback to the golden age of MMOs.  This hope for me isn’t limited to PvE however. MMOs from that period didn’t homogenize classes in any aspect of the game.  In PvP it was understood that each class/archetype had a counter.  Classes weren’t balanced around one-on-one combat and those that struggled individually often shined in a group.  This was the time when the 2nd “M” of MMOs was actually a core aspect of gaming, back when players and developers understood the value of guilds and teamplay.

        

    And to the guy who referenced ESO as a PvP game, come on man, you can't call a game PvP focused when the developers chose to launch it without player nameplates.  Try running organized PvP without nameplates.  Aside from being unable to effectively command your own team you certainly won't be calling targets.  I understand the community created an addon to address this, but the fact it wasn't a standard feature illustrates serious issues in design.       

    • 9 posts
    June 12, 2018 12:17 AM PDT

    PvE only for me in Pantheon. And I spent the entirety of my EQ1 time on Rallos Zek(FFA PvP). All of my friends from Rallos will also be PvE only, which makes the decision easy.

    Coming from UO when EQ1 launched, it didn't seem realistic to me to not be able to attack other player characters or only certain races, so for the sake of immersion and realism I chose FFA. Overall it was a mistake. While I enjoy PvP occasionally, I was there primarily to experience the PvE content. The griefing frequently got in the way of that. When the game is focused on PvE as EQ1 was, the PvP is largely pointless. The only thing you can get out of it is to ruin someone’s day, or to defend against someone ruining yours.

    • 3237 posts
    June 12, 2018 1:31 AM PDT

    daemonios said:

    Louden said:

    SNIP

    Venjenz said:

    SNIP

    Agreed on the (almost) inevitable creeping of PvP into PvE rules. But I disagree about the playstyle. As I've said elsewhere, I've had much fun with PvP in other games, but it brings a great deal of nastiness with it. In ESO PvP was plagued with cheating, exploiting and zerging to the point that I abandoned it completely. Competitive gameplay will do that, and a "laissez faire" attitude from the publisher that refused to punish anti-competitive behaviour just enables it. It was seriously disgusting for me talking about serious issues with other players who resorted to arguments such as "hey, if the game code lets me do something that wasn't intended, you can't call it an exploit and say I can't do it".

    I respect people who just want to go against other people in game and play fair, but even those must realise that many in the PvP community are toxic to the game overall. At least that is my experience. Going back to what Louden said... this is an argument for keeping PvP out of the game, or giving it separate servers and essentially forgetting about it.

     

    PS: forum is acting up, seems I can't use nested quotes...

    Unfortunately, their argument is valid.  As someone who has lead hardcore guilds (both PVE and PVP) over the years, competitive players are always looking for new ways to gain an edge against those they are competing with.  In many cases, that edge extends to people who aren't necessarily trying to "compete" in the first place.  It is what it is.  It's up to the developers to come up with guidelines that will govern player behavior.  There seems to be a lot of people who think that the community can come up with their own code of conduct and due to player interdependence, reputation will matter.  It will matter and what eventually happens is you divide the players into segments who follow different social constructs that quite often conflict with each other.  If training wasn't illegal, players would do it left and right.  Imagine if intentional training wasn't a direct violation of gaming rules.  If players were left to their own devices when it comes to enforcing an anti-training policy, those who are adamant against training will get trained until the end of time.  The same can be said about camp stealing, kill stealing, leap frogging, etc.  I will always miss the days of FFXI where all content was considered "contested"  --  there was no such thing as a recognized camp or kill-steal, and zerging was impossible.

    It was up to the players to tag NPC's and then eliminate them after they locked to their group.  This did pave the way for some folks to utilize hacking techniques that allowed them to pull mobs as soon as they spawned but that behavior can be deterred by making NPC's extremely powerful.  Any truly challenging encounter should require a fair degree of preparation.  Players should need to coordinate buffs, debuffs, pre-wards, aggro modifiers, and positioning before any pull.  As it stands, we know that Pantheon will feature some form of "Most Damage Done" when it comes to kill credit.  That is how the game is designed so when it comes to griefing other players, you need to establish the intent to grief.  That's basically impossible if someone takes on the stance that they are simply competing for resources in an open-world game and making the most of the opportunities available to them.  That is a completely valid "social construct" that aligns with the "vision" that has been shared with this game.  VR will attempt to alleviate "too much competition" by managing server populations and potentially utilizing shards/ghosts as was seen in Vanguard.  But when push comes to shove and you do indeed find yourself competing for resources, just know that everything is fair game unless it's strictly forbidden.  If that means players start utilizing meta raid compositions full of wizards, that's emergent gameplay.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at June 12, 2018 11:46 AM PDT