Forums » The Dwarves

Dwarf Bard?

    • 565 posts
    May 30, 2018 10:14 AM PDT

    I was going thru the race/class table and when I saw that Dwarves can be Bards, I had to laugh.

    • 494 posts
    May 30, 2018 10:18 AM PDT

    Never heard of the terrifying dwarf war chants? :)

     

    What I find much stranger, in particular after the new class reveals, is that Skar can be monks...that one just doesn't fit IMO...

    • 77 posts
    May 30, 2018 10:20 AM PDT
    • 565 posts
    May 30, 2018 11:57 AM PDT

    And I guess paladins will be rare, only two races get to be them.

    • 1172 posts
    May 30, 2018 1:21 PM PDT

    I could see beer drinking/tavern songs or sports arena type cheers or shout-outs. something that picks you up while you are resting or relaxing- hey that's an idea.

    Skar monks fit for me, I see them as a pure martial art, without any spiritual self discipline just all action, technique, swiftness and gore. Sort of like the alternate short (and potentially deadly) path to budhist enlighntenment through debauchery and excess that I read somewhere)

    • 261 posts
    May 30, 2018 2:10 PM PDT
    • 357 posts
    • 275 posts
    May 30, 2018 7:55 PM PDT

    Sarim said:

    Never heard of the terrifying dwarf war chants? :)

     

    What I find much stranger, in particular after the new class reveals, is that Skar can be monks...that one just doesn't fit IMO...

    Patience, friend.

    Patience.

    • 3761 posts
    May 31, 2018 3:40 AM PDT

    Manouk said:

    I could see beer drinking/tavern songs or sports arena type cheers or shout-outs. something that picks you up while you are resting or relaxing- hey that's an idea.

    Skar monks fit for me, I see them as a pure martial art, without any spiritual self discipline just all action, technique, swiftness and gore. Sort of like the alternate short (and potentially deadly) path to budhist enlighntenment through debauchery and excess that I read somewhere)

    Dwarves singing in a tavern was also the first thing that came to mind for me, so I don't think Dwarf Bards are a stretch at all. I'm definitely curious to hear what the justification for Skar Monks is though. I think spiritual self discipline is fundamental to being a Monk. The class description emphasizes the bond between body and soul. And Skar don't seem to have much of a soul at all haha.

    • 1148 posts
    May 31, 2018 4:24 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    Manouk said:

    I could see beer drinking/tavern songs or sports arena type cheers or shout-outs. something that picks you up while you are resting or relaxing- hey that's an idea.

    Skar monks fit for me, I see them as a pure martial art, without any spiritual self discipline just all action, technique, swiftness and gore. Sort of like the alternate short (and potentially deadly) path to budhist enlighntenment through debauchery and excess that I read somewhere)

    Dwarves singing in a tavern was also the first thing that came to mind for me, so I don't think Dwarf Bards are a stretch at all. I'm definitely curious to hear what the justification for Skar Monks is though. I think spiritual self discipline is fundamental to being a Monk. The class description emphasizes the bond between body and soul. And Skar don't seem to have much of a soul at all haha.

     

    Taking Eq2's bruiser concept would fit the idea of skar monks.

    However I agree on the discipline with a chaotic race as skars.

    • 440 posts
    May 31, 2018 6:13 AM PDT

    There are Dwarf Minstrels in Lotro too and they fit extremely well in the best fantasy world there ever was (the Middle Earth) . So I am not shocked by Dwarven bards .

    For me what doesn't make sense and doesn't fit in fantasy lore are Dwarven Enchanters . The spiritual disciplin , the mind openess and cool intellect which are necessary for an enchanter are exactly opposite to the Dwarven nature which is rowdy, violent, gut driven and fiercely single minded .

    • 3761 posts
    May 31, 2018 7:11 AM PDT

    Deadshade said:

    There are Dwarf Minstrels in Lotro too and they fit extremely well in the best fantasy world there ever was (the Middle Earth) . So I am not shocked by Dwarven bards .

    For me what doesn't make sense and doesn't fit in fantasy lore are Dwarven Enchanters . The spiritual disciplin , the mind openess and cool intellect which are necessary for an enchanter are exactly opposite to the Dwarven nature which is rowdy, violent, gut driven and fiercely single minded .

    Fair question. I think it's basically the same reason Ogres can be Druids. It's not because Ogres enjoy meditating on the balance of nature. It's essentially that they see the value in harnessing the power of the elements. Likewise, because crafting is such a vital part of Dwarven culture, it stands to reason that they would realize the benefit of some of their kind learning how to enhance their creations with magic. That led them down the path of Enchanting:

    "the Dwarves seek not an empire, but to increase their mastery in smithing, the arcane as well as battle."

    Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/races/dwarves/

    "Why Some Casters and not All Casters?

    The simple answer here is that we looked at each of the 3 caster classes as distinct and standing on its own merit. When we did that we were able to make the connections to each race more freely and not assume “If One Then All” for each race. So Dwarves for instance -- as some have already suggested -- prize crafting and smithing to a degree that makes Enchanting a natural fit, but has nothing to do with Summoning. Once we let each arcane class have its own identity in the world, it didn’t feel right to lump them in as a One Caster Equals All Casters package."

    (Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5228/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations/view/page/1 ;)

    It's not all about spiritual discipline, mind openness, and cool intellect. Although, even if it was, don't downplay Dwarven nature, especially since Dwarves in Pantheon are different from Dwarves in other games. Some may be rowdy and violent, but not all. And I wouldn't say they are fiercely single-minded. The lore suggests they are in fact fiercely loyal to not only each other, but also their king. And all of those traits you mentioned for being an Enchanter also qualify them to be Dwarf Clerics and Dwarf Paladins.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at May 31, 2018 7:15 AM PDT
    • 1177 posts
    May 31, 2018 7:25 AM PDT

    There's Morgalla the Mirthful from Elaine Cunningham's Elfsong, though she's a bit different from most bards, I guess.

    • 440 posts
    June 2, 2018 2:14 AM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

     

    (Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5228/pantheon-class-and-race-combinations/view/page/1 ;)

    It's not all about spiritual discipline, mind openness, and cool intellect. Although, even if it was, don't downplay Dwarven nature, especially since Dwarves in Pantheon are different from Dwarves in other games. Some may be rowdy and violent, but not all. And I wouldn't say they are fiercely single-minded. The lore suggests they are in fact fiercely loyal to not only each other, but also their king. And all of those traits you mentioned for being an Enchanter also qualify them to be Dwarf Clerics and Dwarf Paladins.

     

    I am of course aware of this link and of the lore . It is precisely because this explanation is inconsistent and self contradictory that Dwarven Enchanters don't make sense to me .

    Smithing is working with inanimate matter while beguiling and charming  is working with intelligent beings . Inanimate matter has no free will, intelligent beings have it . So unless words loose totally their meaning, inanimate matter behaves in a completely different way than intelligent beings . OK one can say that it is all the same thing but if everything goes, it becomes impossible to lead a meaningful discussion because one can no more distinguish an assertion from its negation  . Yes I fully agree that Dwarves could (magically) imbue inanimate matter and especially metal with unusual (e.g "magical") properties because their activities and culture make them more likely to understand and find such "magical" means . Actually other races should be less likely to imbue inanimate matter with unusual properties because they don't work with it as intensely as Dwarves do .

    Now this ability is completely unrelated to the ability to control minds and intelligent beings . It is like saying that because an engineer can build machines much better than anybody else, he can control the minds of people better than anybody else too . Clearly an absurd statement, isn't it ?

     

    Also you say that Pantheon Dwarves are "different" from Dwarves . OK . But different to what point ? So different that nothing of the Dwarwish nature stays in them anymore ? And if yes, why still call them Dwarves ? Just to make fun and make everything equal ? Why do you oppose single mindedness and loyalty ? They are independent features . Balin was fiercely single minded and also fiercely loyal to his King . The Dwarves in Nordish sagas were also single minded but not so loyal . So both single mindnedness combination with loyalty can consistently exist for a DWarf .

    Last to the priests . Priests and mages are very different people . Priests do not do magics . They become privileged vessels to their God through prayer and faith . It is not they who act but their God acts through them . A priest doesn't need to be intelligent but he needs to have faith . A preist always says "Let the God's will be done ." Mages are basically opposite - often agnostic they use their cool intellect and studies to tap into magical sources and to control them through their will and their mind . A mage always says "Let my will be done " . That's why I see no inconsistence in Dwarvish nature leading to Priests or Paladins while there is an obvious one for cool intellectual mind masters that are Enchanters .

    Finally I am just saying that Dwarwish mind controllers, charmers and beguilers are demonstrably inconsistent with the existing lore which defines Dwarves and their nature . After all this existing lore is all we have to define this race which doesn't exist in reality . One can of course forget all this existing lore and invent a race which has not much in common with Dwarves . One can even make of them tall, beardless, non violent and beautiful alcohol and gold haters . Then I just say that some can perhaps tolerate these inconsistences but that I am personally deeply annoyed by it .

    • 7 posts
    June 14, 2018 7:57 PM PDT

    Dwarf Bards = Dwarf Skalds - Skalds are poets, historians, and keepers of lore who use their gifts for oration and song to inspire allies into a frenzied rage :D

    • 149 posts
    July 1, 2018 11:09 AM PDT

    I actually really like the idea of Dwarf bards. Seems to me to go well with the idea of Dwarves being known for their penchant for frequenting taverns. If I end up playing a bard, I will give serious thought to making it a Dwarf. :)

    • 246 posts
    July 5, 2018 8:41 AM PDT

    Gyldervane said:

    I actually really like the idea of Dwarf bards.

    Bagpipes

    • 2036 posts
    July 5, 2018 12:02 PM PDT

    Deadshade said:

    That's why I see no inconsistence in Dwarvish nature leading to Priests or Paladins while there is an obvious one for cool intellectual mind masters that are Enchanters .

    Finally I am just saying that Dwarwish mind controllers, charmers and beguilers are demonstrably inconsistent with the existing lore which defines Dwarves and their nature . After all this existing lore is all we have to define this race which doesn't exist in reality . One can of course forget all this existing lore and invent a race which has not much in common with Dwarves . One can even make of them tall, beardless, non violent and beautiful alcohol and gold haters . Then I just say that some can perhaps tolerate these inconsistences but that I am personally deeply annoyed by it .

    I don't know, the lore does specifically say:

     

    "Believing peace is a product of strength, the Dwarves seek not an empire, but to increase their mastery in smithing, the arcane as well as battle. Their compact form is rarely mistaken for lumbering stiffness, as their reputation in all types of conflict is widely established..."

     

    "From that beacon their legacy as champions, mystics, artisans, story-tellers and unfailing companions has flourished, unabated by the storms of change that roll across the planet."

     

    To quote myself from another thread talking about this:

     

    "To be fair, anything can be made to make sense with the right lorework. Off the top of my head a reason they might not be (though they could be able) wizards or summoners could be due to not all schools of magic being the same and magic is far more nuanced; be it the cadence of word, movement of body/hands, tones of voice/languages altogether, or possibly even deity related. Think of it like instruments: a pianist can't just pick up a guitar or violin and make pleasing music even though he likely understands all the concepts and underlying theory of music. Another reason they might just have enchanters is could be that when Dwarves discovered or were given magic it was in a more base form and it took time before one of them even figured out that they could use the magic to enchant metals and they learned about illusions/mezzing/etc before that...or perhaps they DID start with just enchanting of metals but over the ages the curious minds of some expanded upon that magic to figure out what else could be done with it. Wars in particular would be a catalyst to trying to figure out how to use/expand such a magic to work against their enemies, but that doesn't mean they also had access or knowledge of other arcane arts/schools."