Bazgrim said:Wellspring said:Bazgrim said:- If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.
Can anyone tell me at what timestamp in the stream this is discussed? I've listened to the stream a couple of times, but I cannot find it.
My apologies for not clarifying, but this was said by Joppa in chat during the Post-Stream Review with Lass. If you watch the VOD on Twitch with chat open, you should see his comment.
Softening of the death penalty before Alpha even hits.
Expect to see a lot more of these "hard core" aspects of the game slowly rolled back as the game develops.
nscheffel said:Bazgrim said:Wellspring said:Bazgrim said:- If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.
Can anyone tell me at what timestamp in the stream this is discussed? I've listened to the stream a couple of times, but I cannot find it.
My apologies for not clarifying, but this was said by Joppa in chat during the Post-Stream Review with Lass. If you watch the VOD on Twitch with chat open, you should see his comment.
Softening of the death penalty before Alpha even hits.
Expect to see a lot more of these "hard core" aspects of the game slowly rolled back as the game develops.
Are you that "I told you so" guy ?
nscheffel said:Bazgrim said:Wellspring said:Bazgrim said:- If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.
Can anyone tell me at what timestamp in the stream this is discussed? I've listened to the stream a couple of times, but I cannot find it.
My apologies for not clarifying, but this was said by Joppa in chat during the Post-Stream Review with Lass. If you watch the VOD on Twitch with chat open, you should see his comment.
Softening of the death penalty before Alpha even hits.
Expect to see a lot more of these "hard core" aspects of the game slowly rolled back as the game develops.
Sorry if you were not already aware, but they have said that the death penalty will not include deleveling ever since the beginning of the FAQ:
7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
The news is that there will be an XP debt. No "softening" has occurred. They have shown no signs of straying from their original tenets the past ~4 years, so I still see no actual reason to believe that they will. Deleveling specifically is not an essential part of a challenging game. The death penalty can still be tuned in such a way that you really want to avoid dying.
Bazgrim said:nscheffel said:Bazgrim said:Wellspring said:Bazgrim said:- If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.
Can anyone tell me at what timestamp in the stream this is discussed? I've listened to the stream a couple of times, but I cannot find it.
My apologies for not clarifying, but this was said by Joppa in chat during the Post-Stream Review with Lass. If you watch the VOD on Twitch with chat open, you should see his comment.
Softening of the death penalty before Alpha even hits.
Expect to see a lot more of these "hard core" aspects of the game slowly rolled back as the game develops.
Sorry if you were not already aware, but they have said that the death penalty will not include deleveling ever since the beginning of the FAQ:
7.0 Will there be a ‘death penalty’?
We want the player to respect and even fear the environment, but also to be enticed by it. A big part of achieving this balance is making sure there is an incentive to avoid death. While the details of this system are not yet fleshed out (and will likely be tweaked and changed a bit during beta), you can expect death to be something you’d rather avoid. That said, if a death penalty is too severe, it can keep players away from some of the more challenging and rewarding content, and we are keeping this in mind as well. So death will sting, but it will also not involve losing an unreasonable amount of experience, or levels, or a permanent loss of items.
The news is that there will be an XP debt. No "softening" has occurred. They have shown no signs of straying from their original tenets the past ~4 years, so I still see no actual reason to believe that they will. Deleveling specifically is not an essential part of a challenging game. The death penalty can still be tuned in such a way that you really want to avoid dying.
Here is a quote from Joppa on May 2'nd 2017:
"Loving the feedback everyone!
As a general note, I just want to reiterate that our Death system is still under heavy consideration. We may move towards de-leveling in the near future (I'm not opposed to it). We may end up with a hybrid, where a certain amount of EXP debt is accumulated before an actual de-level. Or we may stick with a pure EXP-debt system.
You can bank on us trying all 3 of these approaches, if not more, during Alpha and Beta testing before we make a final decision."
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6068/live-stream-05-02-feedback/view/page/1
Outside of permanent gear loss, de-leveling is the pinnacle of loss aversion when it comes to the death penalty, IMO. I think it's imperative that death continues to feel meaningful at max level, otherwise you end up dangling the ultimate carrot for people to rush toward. I have plenty of experience with debt systems and will admit that they are quite effective during the standard leveling phase. Once you get to level cap, however, debt becomes trivial, and continues to remain so until the level cap is increased. I think Brad hit the nail on the head when he said "Losing a level pretty much sucks." This is exactly right, and losing a level should suck. Unless some other aspect of the death penalty is being tweaked for max-level players (which we have heard nothing about) I am 100% convinced that the game needs de-leveling.
Excerpt on Loss Aversion from Wolfshead:
"In a classic MMO like EverQuest your character could go in two different directions. You could gain levels or lose levels. Yes, you could actually lose levels and players know this and it looms large in their minds. As a guide and as a player I have seen players caught in death loops when they had been bound in a certain location such as Freeport and guards continue to kill them when they re-spawn. A level 60 player could lose all of their levels from such a tragic mistake.
EverQuest was truly unique because the more you advanced your character became the more you risked when you went out and adventured. This is because the higher you are in level mobs that produce experience are far more powerful and the result is players have a far greater chance of dying because of it. EverQuest had a rising trajectory of difficulty that created an increasingly more intense and gripping experience for the player.
Both loss and gain are symbiotic and complementary design principles. Both feed off of each other. Both are meaningless without the other."
http://www.wolfsheadonline.com/the-death-penalty-mechanic-and-loss-aversion-in-mmo-design/
@oneADseven, thanks for the quotes, they're enlightening.
I'm wondering if a hybrid approach could be designed that was appropriate during leveling and at level cap. Maybe a system that de-levels you once you've gained a certain amount of xp debt in a particular level. That should take away the meta of being super-cautious right after you ding a new level, while still making you want to be fairly cautious generally. I think that would work at level cap, too - especially if there were good limits to the total amount of positive xp that could be "banked" at level cap.
Bazgrim said:I lost levels in EQ it didn’t put me off just sharpened the mind, thank you Bazgrim for all you do xxWellspring said:Bazgrim said:- If you lose enough XP upon death that would delevel you, you will instead accumulate an XP debt.
Can anyone tell me at what timestamp in the stream this is discussed? I've listened to the stream a couple of times, but I cannot find it.
My apologies for not clarifying, but this was said by Joppa in chat during the Post-Stream Review with Lass. If you watch the VOD on Twitch with chat open, you should see his comment.
So, in watching these streams, it sure seems like it takes a long time for 6 folks lvl 20-22 to kill a lvl 8-13 mob, :)
That is exciting.
Okay, for one deleveling isn't that big of an issue guys, for one anyone with some common sense would know to get a buffer before going somewhere new, or dangerous, this is simply a given so their for losing a level should rarely happen, I have played eq for probably off and on 16 years or so and have literally only DE leveled once, and that was becuase I leveled was memming new spells than got trained without my gate spell up, and honestly if it weren't for that it wouldn't of happened, people talk about deleveling as if it is a game defining function when in reality it is something that doesn't happen all that often.
Riahuf22 said:Okay, for one deleveling isn't that big of an issue guys, for one anyone with some common sense would know to get a buffer before going somewhere new, or dangerous, this is simply a given so their for losing a level should rarely happen, I have played eq for probably off and on 16 years or so and have literally only DE leveled once, and that was becuase I leveled was memming new spells than got trained without my gate spell up, and honestly if it weren't for that it wouldn't of happened, people talk about deleveling as if it is a game defining function when in reality it is something that doesn't happen all that often.
It's not quite as simple as just giving yourself a buffer. It primarily matters when you reach max level. If there is no deleveling, there is much less risk involved when you reach max level. You shouldn't suddenly care less about dying as soon as you hit max level. It also matters if you get caught in a death loop. If you die in a really bad spot and corpse recovery isn't going so well, you can rack up multiple deaths very quickly, resulting in multiple lost levels and tons of lost time. These are the sorts of things that do in fact happen - maybe not to you, but to others. So it's a discussion worth having.
Bazgrim said:Riahuf22 said:Okay, for one deleveling isn't that big of an issue guys, for one anyone with some common sense would know to get a buffer before going somewhere new, or dangerous, this is simply a given so their for losing a level should rarely happen, I have played eq for probably off and on 16 years or so and have literally only DE leveled once, and that was becuase I leveled was memming new spells than got trained without my gate spell up, and honestly if it weren't for that it wouldn't of happened, people talk about deleveling as if it is a game defining function when in reality it is something that doesn't happen all that often.
It's not quite as simple as just giving yourself a buffer. It primarily matters when you reach max level. If there is no deleveling, there is much less risk involved when you reach max level. You shouldn't suddenly care less about dying as soon as you hit max level. It also matters if you get caught in a death loop. If you die in a really bad spot and corpse recovery isn't going so well, you can rack up multiple deaths very quickly, resulting in multiple lost levels and tons of lost time. These are the sorts of things that do in fact happen - maybe not to you, but to others. So it's a discussion worth having.
there would be zero risk at max level, and also de leveling is a silent motivation, i think people should be scared to venture alone in terminus, i think that ultimately is whats going to build a strong community, that you actually need and rely on eachother, you start stemming away from these fundamentals before you know it youre diablo 3 *cough WoW*, perhaps you guys have a way to make these fundamentals still relavent with the new methods mentioned but i dont see it.