Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Classic Trade vs AH: Compromise

    • 10 posts
    April 19, 2018 6:19 PM PDT

    There seems to be passionate people on both sides of the Auciton House argument. I would like to see a good mix of both that but first lets look at the pros and cons of each imo.

    Classic "Commons" Trade:
    Pro: Builds community... thats about it but this is extremely important

    Con: Hard to find the gear you want and trade the gear you have

    Con: Hard to understand item worth and currency value.

    Con: Takes a lot of time sitting around not playing. Hurts those with less time.

    Con: Can be tedious and boring.

    Modern Auction House:

    Pro: Easy to get the gear you want and trade the gear you have.

    Pro: Convenient and fast

    Pro: Easy to understand currency and item values. Helps people not get cheated out of their items worth.

    Con: Absolutley no community interaction.

     

    I've been thinking a lot about this and then I realized a modern ARPG has solved this problem using item listings (think classifieds). Players can list their items in a database (with or without a price) that is searchable by all other players. However, to actually trade you have to whisper that person and arrange a meeting to trade the items. IMO this combines the best of both worlds. If you want an item you can search for it and find players who have it. However you still have to interact with that player and negotiate a trade. If you're a jerk in the community, people can refuse to trade with you. When I've used this system in the other game sometimes we talk a bit and trade quickly. Other times we talk a lot and group up, or I ask the player what else they have for sale and we negotiate further. I still get to interact with people but I dont have to stand around for hours filtering through chat to find the item I want. It's fast, convenient, and builds community.

    Would you be open to a system like this? Why or why not?


    This post was edited by Munk at April 19, 2018 6:20 PM PDT
    • 98 posts
    April 19, 2018 6:29 PM PDT

    Seems like a good thing for the community to develop outside of the game - like detailed maps - so it's a more meaningful choice for players whether they choose to participate or not.

    • 1785 posts
    April 19, 2018 6:32 PM PDT

    It's an interesting discussion.  In my memory, we've circled this topic quite a bit in various threads but rarely addressed it directly.  I'm one of those people who's very passionate about it, but my passion comes from a) wanting the economy to work and b) wanting the economy to support more sellers, instead of having each server dominated by the same handful of people who have more time or can leave alts online, etc.

    What Neph wants to see in terms of buy/sell interfaces:

    - Regional markets instead of global markets.  (ex:  You can list an item in Thronefast, but it's not available for someone in Skarhold to buy, or even possibly see.  They have to travel to Thronefast)

    - Ability to sell items while offline.  Consignment based ("auction house" is the easiest way to do this).

    - Ability to set buy orders as well as sell orders.  I need ratkin teeth for alchemy, let me use a consignment buying system to buy ratkin teeth from players without having to be online (regional, just like selling)

    Note that none of this replaces the ability for players to advertise and sell direct via chat channels - I support the use of an /auction channel, and gathering places where people can gather to trade directly.  A consignment system however helps people who have jobs and lives to be able to participate in the economy.

     

    I would absolutely love being able to set up SWG-style shops in player housing, however that is most assuredly an expansion-level feature.

     

    Regardless of the buy/sell interface, there's a lot that goes along with this in order to makethe game economy work.  The game can have the best buying/selling system in the world, if other aspects of the economy (such as itemization, money faucets/sinks, and diversity) aren't done right, then none of it will matter.  Things need to be set up so that players who want to participate in the economy (including by crafting) can find niches to compete in at every level, and so that markets aren't routinely in a feast/famine situation where nothing makes money unless it's super rare.

    Further, if a secondary market is allowed (as the devs have hinted at) a lot of thought needs to be given to how to pull items out of the game over time, so that 2, 3, 5 years into the game, new players can still join and participate in the economy, instead of finding out that everything they can make or gather is so oversupplied as to be worthless.

     

    • 1860 posts
    April 19, 2018 6:40 PM PDT

    We had a statement from Brad a few months back (I believe that was the most recent comment on the subject) that said there would be auction houses but they would be localized instead of world wide. 


    This post was edited by philo at April 19, 2018 6:41 PM PDT
    • 2752 posts
    April 19, 2018 6:44 PM PDT

    Actually this topic has been discussed to exhaustion (and fervently might I add). If I remember correctly this topic holds the title for the largest thread on these forums and is now closed: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2594/death-to-the-auction-house

     

    The main summary of the thread by Beefcake:

    Beefcake said:

    Sintec said:
    Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos.  They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.

    You are completely right. Lets take a look at what VR has in mind for Pantheon in their own words.

    WHAT IS THE CURRENT STATUS?

    Kilsin said:
    That is pretty much it, we have settled on lots of these decisions over the last 3 years, we started these forums back in FEB 2014 and have been collecting info and taking feedback and suggestions ever since, to the point that we have already pretty much decided on most things and need to work on them some more and see them through to completion so we can test them. Which makes it hard but more reason why it was important to get in early on a game like this in development.

    We will still take feedback and suggestions and ask for specific feedback on certain things but for big mechanics like this, it has already been decided and we need to test it before we even consider changing anything.

    Kilsin is pretty clear here that they already have a plan, it has been decided, and will be tested before considering any changes. Now, we have to determine what that plan is.

    Kilsin said:
    We will release more information on this system when we have done more work on it, for now, it is best to re-read these 24 pages and the streams/podcasts we have done where we have spoken about it.

    So, lets read through official posts so far.

    Aradune said:
    I think the having your own merchant NPC that would sell your wares is a good compromise fitting in-between one extreme (everything is face to face, player to player) and the other extreme, a full on auction house.  I will say that I'm leaning towards this being what we'll do.  Of course, this doesn't stop player to player trades/sales.

    And then some kind of list board, as you mentioned.

    As for the EC Tunnel part of things, while I do think people will find areas once they learn the world, the routes, efficient ways to get from point a to point b, etc. and that there will be places that make sense to place your merchant minion NPC there, I don't necessarily agree that we'll get a repeat of EQ, e.g there will be only one of these.  The way the world is being crafted, where the races are, the different continents, etc. I'm hoping we would see multiple spots.

    If people are concerned that because of the merchants minions that no one will do player to player trades, 1. I don't necessarily agree but 2. if that turned out to be the case in alpha and beta, we could implement a tax or similar system to encourage face to face trades. 

    Anyway, that's where I pretty much sit at the moment.

    AND, before that quote, there was another:

    Aradune said:
    The most important goals related to this entire discussion are:  1. we want a thriving player driven economy 2. we want people not only compelled but rewarded for traveling and exploring the world 3. we want to put desirable items in hard to reach places and reward those merchant types for taking the risk of not just obtaining that remote item, but bringing it to more civilized and populous areas and, assuming the demand is there, selling it for a profit.  I've always been intrigued by that period where the Silk Road was used and something perhaps of little worth in China when brought all the way back to Europe was quite pricey.

    1. Is certainly doable

    2. Definitely going to reward travel and exploration in several ways

    3. This is easier said than done, and no I'm not trying to make a middle-ages silk road economic simulator.  But I do think distance and risk should matter.  And, therefore, people taking the time to travel and to risk more should be rewarded accordingly.

    So those are the basic goals.

    Now comes the stuff that like I said earlier, we're not going to set in stone until alpha or even early beta:

    1. I don't think we'll require the player to sit around a popular trading spot spamming WTS: blahblah for hours.  I don't think anyone really wants that, right?

    2. So, if we aren't going to force people to do that then *some* mechanism/feature must be present... is it a full auction house?  Is it just being able to set up an NPC and put your items on it, set your prices, and then leave him there while you continue to play the game?  Is it somewhere in-between or something else?  I honestly don't know yet.  I just have a pretty strong feeling that some sort of 'helper' is going to be necessary.

    3. The next big issue seems to be 'how do I find that special item I am looking for?'  Again, we can go to one extreme and I think most people agree you shouldn't have to spend hours talking to every player or their merchant NPC, one by one, trying to find that item... especially if after all that effort that item isn't even currently for sale in the zone or region you're in.

    4. So then comes the 'how easy to we make it to find that item'? and 'If I can search for an item, will it be local or global or something in-between?'  Great questions.  Again, not setting anything in stone, but my guess is that we will end up having a way to check if a region or zone has a merchant NPC, or a player, or an AH (if we even have them) has an item you are looking for currently for sale.  Global searches but regional buying? Hrm... that's not sitting with me right, but will continue to think on it. 

    Then there's mailing people items.... perhaps... could be a good money sink.   

    Anyway those are my thoughts right now -- if I missed addressing something critical please let me know.

    I do think many in our audience enjoy face-to-face trading and that many don't.  We therefore need to accommodate both.  My gut says right now that you can set up your own NPC merchant, give it the items you want to sell, set prices, and then leave him.   Then it's not face-to-face, its player interacting with NPC, and I don't think anyone has issues there, yes? No?

    Bottom line: we are listening, we understand there are people with conflicting desires but we are also confident that together (you guys and us devs) we can make a regional economy not only work and make for a fun part of the game, but also accommodate both sides of this current debate (or perhaps there's more than just two sides here -- it's been quite the thread).

    Aradune said:
    Well, first of all what I can say for certain is there will be no global auction house or bazarre.  We want travel and remote regions to matter and for trade to take place in different areas and to see items fluctuate in value depending on how hard it was or wasn't to obtain and then bring to the area where you want to sell it.  A player driven economy, as I've said many times, is paramount to Pantheon.
    Aradune said:
    I generally like it when the players are driving things and places of commerce arise organically. That said, there is something to be said about a basic system that allows you to sell your items while offline, or that allows you to search for an item for sale in the local area you are in...

    This clearly indicates that there will be NO GLOBAL auction house or bazarre. However, the option to have local automated systems clearly remains open.

    Also, they are clearly intending players to have options:
     Face-to-face trading (for those that prefer that)
     Some kind of automated systems (for those that prefer that)

    HOW DID WE GET HERE?

    Lets take a look at a few more quotes.

    Kilsin said:
    We are most definitely creating a new game, this is nothing like an EQ or VG clone/sequel etc. and as much as that may disappoint some people, Pantheon is a new game, new IP, new ideas, based on its own lore, that involves some new and some familiar systems, mechanics and features that we thnk you will all enjoy a lot. :)
    Aradune said:
    That said, I still feel (for clarification: I'm sharing my thoughts with you, not annoucing exactly what Pantheon will be like, because a lot of this is not going to be finally decided until beta) that some extra tools that did not exist in EQ to help people make friends, find groupmates, trade, etc. will be necessary to help proactively build community.  This being 2016 and not 1999, and with the number of people who have experienced MMOs being easily 12+ million now, combined with many of them never having played a community-driven game, I think we will see a lot of players come into Pantheon and struggle a lot at first if we don't proactively help.

    Now I totally understand your concerns, and if we overdo this, we'll actually hurt the community and the game itself.

    But remember, we are not only targeting old school MMO players with Pantheon -- we truly believe there are a LOT of players who never experienced the first generation of MMOs who will try out Pantheon and love it.  My concern, though, is that when they try the game and aren't themselves used to a community-centric, social, cooperative game, that some/many might become frustrated early on and quit.  I think we may need to ease them into this 'new' (I know, really it's old) style of MMO.  So that's what we've been thinking about for sometime -- how can we do that, but not go too far and make Pantheon into something it was never meant to be.  We have lots of ideas, but we need to try them out in beta.  But it's a big enough issue for me that I've made these posts and am looking for our existing communities feedback as well (and you guys are providing that -- thank you).

    To make sure I'm being clear:  I don't expect everyone who tries the game who never experienced the first generation of MMOs to like Pantheon -- Pantheon has a specific target audience and we are NOT making a game that is all things for all people.  A lot of people won't like Pantheon whether we leave all of this totally up to the community or if we put in some functionality to help build community.  And, as I've stated before, I'm ok with that.  But I also think that a lot of people who never experienced the first generation of MMOs will LOVE Pantheon once they've experienced the magic of a community-focused, social, cooperative MMO.  We need those people, and so you do you guys.  And so, unlike EQ where we just let everything happen organically, we are considering 'helper' mechanics that proactively help and even push people into the community.  Trade is important, and I'm glad we're talking about it, but the big one for me is making friends in-game.  People just don't do that anymore because 1. they don't need to and 2. many people who play MMOs now don't want to.  Again, I'm fine with #2 -- they're not going to like Pantheon.  But #1 has created a situation where people who DO enjoy socialzing and cooperative play don't know to look for it, don't know how or might be hestiant to reach out to other players, etc. 

    It's sad in a sense -- I feel compelled to put some systems in the game that probably wouldn't be necessary if MMOs hadn't altered course in the last 5-10 years and become a different animal.  But, while we can all criticize and lament this reality, it's still a reality.

    Aradune said:
    This really touches on a bigger issue that we're still thinking very hard about:  Vanilla EQ pretty much left everything up to the players.... want to find a group?  Well, we had the /lfg flag, but not much more.  Players were on their own to make friends, put groups together, to sell and buy items, etc.  I guess the question that often comes up is:  will players newer to MMOs or who didn't play the early more open and organic MMOs struggle too much without a little help?  Also:  do we create some sort of local UI that helps people buy and sell?  Do we let people perhaps put an item on a merchant and sell it by consignment (e.g. someone can buy it while the owner is offline)?  How about grouping?  How about the community in general?  Should we try to be a bit proactive and help people find groups and make friends, etc.? 

    I know one could say, well, EQ didn't need any help -- the players came together and did most of this kind of stuff themselves.  But, at the same time, this isn't 1999.  Many people who will try Pantheon will not have that perspective and will be coming from games that do make a proactive approach in many areas... that provide an interface, or tools, to help players with transactions, grouping, etc.

    I'm personally of the opinion that there has been so much hand-holding in recent games that we should try to be proactive, within reason of course.  And I say that because I know some of you are probably worried about what I am saying and that we would take this too far and start implementing dungeon-finders and such.  Yes, I agree, it could be taken too far, but we won't let that happen.

    Clearly, he is stating that we can do an automated selling system without destroying the spirit of the game AND without implementing other "easycore" or "convenience" features that so many people here claim will immediately follow any kind of automated selling.

    So, as Sintec said:

    Sintec said:
    Has everyone here posting read and watched what VR has in mind for pantheon? The general path they want to take? I don't want to step on anyone's ideas I mean by all means post them, but VR has said time and time again they do not want to be like all other mmos.  They want to bring back old school style. So yes games may have evolved and adapted to what people have complained and cried about to make things easier but that does not mean that's how it should be.

    • 1785 posts
    April 19, 2018 6:56 PM PDT

    Thanks Iksar.  I had forgotten all about that thread :)

    • 2756 posts
    April 20, 2018 3:14 AM PDT

    Having just gotten an Enchanter up to level 11 playing around East Commons I have to say the EC tunnel trading system, while 'quaint' is insane.

    Always was, always will be.

    It's pointless going over what's been discussed SO many times, but I have to say my recent experience of EQ has me dreading the thought of multiple /auction spam locations in Pantheon.

    It is NUTS that there wouldn't be a trading post in a town near the bank with an NPC trading method of some kind.

    It may well be that it is just a town square bulletin board that simply connects two parties and then the trade is 'manual' but the whole EQ scrolling chatbox /auction link spam and slowly walking overloaded back and forth from Freeport bank (through the ironically empty 'market' district!) is bonkers in both a gaming and a role-playing way.

     

    • 1860 posts
    April 20, 2018 7:10 AM PDT
    I agree with dispo. I feel people have rose colored glasses on when they remember ec tunnel trading. An AH is one of the few things from modern mmos I prefer.
    • 139 posts
    April 20, 2018 7:11 AM PDT

    I'm pleased with what they planning.

    I like the idea of local bazaars with NPC brokers instead of players. I would enjoy seeing a huge market with new brokers poping in as demand increases.

    Would be cool if it was busy like assassins creed 1 with all the npcs walking about but that might be too much to ask for. 

    How about connecting the market with the crafting quarters and having npc runners bring you crafting materials, it could be part of the buy order system. 

    and pickpocket doing there thing while guards patrol looking out for them. 

    and tax official walking around making their collections. 

     

    Ok i ask for too much.

    • 3852 posts
    April 20, 2018 7:45 AM PDT

    Thank you Iksar.

    I am sure that they will come up with a good mix or compromise solution.

    The one thing I don't want is a player bazaar for *all* items however trivial. I'm no fan of the EQ style bazaar at all but I can live with it for the most valuable items if that is what the community/VR actually prefers.

    • 769 posts
    April 20, 2018 10:10 AM PDT

    philo said: I agree with dispo. I feel people have rose colored glasses on when they remember ec tunnel trading. An AH is one of the few things from modern mmos I prefer.

    I'm going to have to respectfully disagree here. I too have been playing P99 and utilizing the EC tunnel quite often. While it certainly CAN be insane, I don't use that as a con. It's insane in an almost exciting way, to me. Like being on the floor of wall street. It's fun. 

    I'd also add to the list of pros. While it certainly is problematic for those with less time to trade, it also gives people like me something worthwhile and fun to do when I only have 20-30 minutes to play. That's a pro, to me. 

    The discussion has been done to death, as others have said. I still believe a consignment function (as a whole other "tradeskill", as it were) would be the best compromise, and add a whole other layer never seen on an MMO before. It goes with the idea of creating an MMO with the fondness of the past but the innovation of something new. But I'll be fine with whatever direction they take. 

    The rose colored glasses is an interesting argument to me. While that certainly can be true with some things, it has always seemed like just another way to say, "I don't like this feature anymore, so you probably shouldn't to". Corpse runs, EC tunnel, high death penalties. Some people miss them but don't want them anymore. Some people miss them and still want them. And some people have always hated them. It's not different from anything else. 

    • 2752 posts
    April 20, 2018 11:40 AM PDT

    Tralyan said:

    philo said: I agree with dispo. I feel people have rose colored glasses on when they remember ec tunnel trading. An AH is one of the few things from modern mmos I prefer.

    The rose colored glasses is an interesting argument to me. While that certainly can be true with some things, it has always seemed like just another way to say, "I don't like this feature anymore, so you probably shouldn't to". Corpse runs, EC tunnel, high death penalties. Some people miss them but don't want them anymore. Some people miss them and still want them. And some people have always hated them. It's not different from anything else. 

    Yeah, I loved and still love EC tunnel/player to player trading. It's possible they existed somewhere but I don't remember any kind of problems with players monopolizing items/cornering markets in EQ, yet every MMO I have played with an auction house is plagued with certain players controlling markets/creating monopolies on different items. I'd prefer any system that doesn't give much if any room for such things. 

    • 120 posts
    April 20, 2018 12:49 PM PDT

    Munk said:

    Modern Auction House:

    Pro: Easy to get the gear you want and trade the gear you have.

    Pro: Convenient and fast

    Pro: Easy to understand currency and item values. Helps people not get cheated out of their items worth.

    Con: Absolutley no community interaction.

    If all you want is "easy, convenient, and fast", well maybe PRF isn't the game for you, as it basically goes directly against VR's extremely well explicated vision. Your point about zero community interaction is the final nail in this argument's coffin. Seriously, did nobody read the FAQ?


    This post was edited by Xbachs at April 20, 2018 12:50 PM PDT
    • 1399 posts
    April 20, 2018 1:56 PM PDT

    Munk said:

    There seems to be passionate people on both sides of the Auciton House argument. I would like to see a good mix of both that but first lets look at the pros and cons of each imo.

    Classic "Commons" Trade:
    Pro: Builds community... thats about it but this is extremely important

    Con: Hard to find the gear you want and trade the gear you have

    Con: Hard to understand item worth and currency value.

    Con: Takes a lot of time sitting around not playing. Hurts those with less time.

    Con: Can be tedious and boring.

    Modern Auction House:

    Pro: Easy to get the gear you want and trade the gear you have.

    Pro: Convenient and fast

    Pro: Easy to understand currency and item values. Helps people not get cheated out of their items worth.

    Con: Absolutley no community interaction.

     

    I've been thinking a lot about this and then I realized a modern ARPG has solved this problem using item listings (think classifieds). Players can list their items in a database (with or without a price) that is searchable by all other players. However, to actually trade you have to whisper that person and arrange a meeting to trade the items. IMO this combines the best of both worlds. If you want an item you can search for it and find players who have it. However you still have to interact with that player and negotiate a trade. If you're a jerk in the community, people can refuse to trade with you. When I've used this system in the other game sometimes we talk a bit and trade quickly. Other times we talk a lot and group up, or I ask the player what else they have for sale and we negotiate further. I still get to interact with people but I dont have to stand around for hours filtering through chat to find the item I want. It's fast, convenient, and builds community.

    Would you be open to a system like this? Why or why not?

    This could be a good thread, collect a wealth of information about a great concept and improving on it IF it can be kept on topic..

    "Classic Trade vs AH: Compromise"

    I Totally support the Craigslist concept. It offers the best of both worlds and losses the worst of them.

    It can be Reagonal as VR wants.

    It can support even promote the Silk Road VR wants.

    It can add a money sink that VR wants.

    It can bring people together like VR wants.

    It can support search like the AH'ers want. Both Reagonal and Global.

    It can add so much more.. being a advertisement it could also advertise services such as Porting, and Rezing, Corpse recovery, crafting, or Mercenary services. I can't even begin to think of all the possibilities.

    I would like to see it portable, not a stationary bulletin board in town someplace... but perhaps a scribe in the tows selling them for 1 plat a piece, the Thronefest Herald, the Farethale Gazette. If you wanted to global search you would need the paper from each city/ Reagon. If you didn't want to spend a Plat on one then the taverns in the city would have one you could use there (but could not remove) for free.

    I can't understand why this idea hasn't gained more momentum.

    Off line sellers... put your toon in selling mode.. boring hack just to say you have something, if that's all the better we can do then we may as well just go full AH... that is not person to person thats boring.

    Nobody needs to sell that fast.

    • 10 posts
    April 20, 2018 3:12 PM PDT

    Xbachs said:

    If all you want is "easy, convenient, and fast", well maybe PRF isn't the game for you, as it basically goes directly against VR's extremely well explicated vision. Your point about zero community interaction is the final nail in this argument's coffin. Seriously, did nobody read the FAQ?

     

    Its clear you didn't read my post so not sure if your trolling or just belligerent. I'm not looking for an easy game. I played EQ and the reason I am interested in this game is challenging content, community, and I really enjoy grinding camps with a group of friends. I want challenging adventuring, combat and epic quests that take months to complete. I do not want challenging trading (which is a social interaction btw..). Please re-read my post and comment if you have something to contribute.

    I have noticed a trend on these forums and reddit for people to jump to conclusions, post combatitive opinions, and shun any player who doesn't fit there own idea of what Pantheon should be. To me that is completely against what Brad and "The Vision" is for. I remeber the EQ community being extremely helpful and patient with each other. Strangers taking their time to explain the game and teaching each other. Thats what will make this game great, not bad attitudes and trolling. If posts like the above represent the community that Pantheon will have, you can guarantee it will be a very limited population. Forcing people to interact with a toxic community will be the end of Pantheon. It's up to the player base to cultivate the community, VR is just providing the interface.


    This post was edited by Munk at April 20, 2018 3:13 PM PDT
    • 139 posts
    April 20, 2018 3:29 PM PDT

    Ergh, 'community' so cliche. 

    • 769 posts
    April 20, 2018 3:30 PM PDT

    Munk said:

    Xbachs said:

    If all you want is "easy, convenient, and fast", well maybe PRF isn't the game for you, as it basically goes directly against VR's extremely well explicated vision. Your point about zero community interaction is the final nail in this argument's coffin. Seriously, did nobody read the FAQ?

     

    Its clear you didn't read my post so not sure if your trolling or just belligerent. I'm not looking for an easy game. I played EQ and the reason I am interested in this game is challenging content, community, and I really enjoy grinding camps with a group of friends. I want challenging adventuring, combat and epic quests that take months to complete. I do not want challenging trading (which is a social interaction btw..). Please re-read my post and comment if you have something to contribute.

    I have noticed a trend on these forums and reddit for people to jump to conclusions, post combatitive opinions, and shun any player who doesn't fit there own idea of what Pantheon should be. To me that is completely against what Brad and "The Vision" is for. I remeber the EQ community being extremely helpful and patient with each other. Strangers taking their time to explain the game and teaching each other. Thats what will make this game great, not bad attitudes and trolling. If posts like the above represent the community that Pantheon will have, you can guarantee it will be a very limited population. Forcing people to interact with a toxic community will be the end of Pantheon. It's up to the player base to cultivate the community, VR is just providing the interface.

    Totally agree with you here, Munk, in that there's absolutely nothing wrong with putting your opinions and ideas out there. And you shouldn't expect angry replies and accusations as a result of voicing those opinions. 

    That said, the first thing I noticed about your original post is that it DID seem somewhat ...biased. 

    For example, Pro number 1 and number 2 for Auction Houses seem to be pretty much the same thing. Almost as if you wanted to make sure the pro list was markedly more impressive than the EC tunnel pro list, even if it meant a little redundancy to stretch it out. 

    Easy to get the gear you want and trade the gear you have pretty much does mean, easy and fast. 

    When I see that, it makes me wonder if the person creating these pro and con lists aren't purposefully leaning in one direction to fit the narrative of their argument. Fudging the results, as it were. As a proponent of the EC Tunnel type trading, I could probably create a list with more pros for EC tunnel and less for Auction House in order to fit my argument that the EC tunnel is better. If that makes any sense. 

    Not saying that I agree or disagree, just that I can *sortta* see where Xbachs was coming from, even if he delivered it poorly. When I create these kinds of lists for the sake of creating discussion, I find it helps to approach it in the way my old communications professor prepared us for debates by making us argue for the thing we don't agree with, rather than what we do. That way, we end up making sure we see all arguments in favor of what we don't agree with for the sake of making an unbiased approach to any one topic. 

    Just a thought. 


    This post was edited by Tralyan at April 20, 2018 3:35 PM PDT
    • 44 posts
    April 20, 2018 4:23 PM PDT

    I believe classic trade is the way to go. Also this will help reduce exploiters as far as people who do whatever they do to exploit trade. This would make it a bit more fair to compete for items....

     

    Auctions Houses seem like a great idea, but thats the very first thing that happened that started the downward spiral. Anything that removes the need for a human to do is probably what killed off what we love about the old MMOs

    • 10 posts
    April 20, 2018 4:25 PM PDT

    Thanks for the reply Traylan. I see your point of view and I will agree my argument is biased toward my opinion which is why I tried to not make my post definitive and asked for feedback. As someone who loves combat and adventuring, I had a hard time seeing benefit to sitting around in the commons trading. I always felt like I could be doing something else with my friends. You may have a completely opposite opinion and thats great! The whole reason I'm on the forums is to engage with people, hear their opinions, and expand my own thinking.

    I think the great thing about community is being able to pool ideas and discussing their benefits and weaknesses. We don't have to always be right or wrong, we just have to be willing to have a conversation and hopefully come up with a postitive outcome. 

    • 1860 posts
    April 20, 2018 6:23 PM PDT
    Yep, besides the fact that this thread is just a rehash of old threads, we know there will be localized AHs. It has already been stated. Like it or hate it. This ship has sailed.

    Major game designs such as this have most likely been decided long ago at this point. I keep seeing people new to the forums asking for major alterations...like class design...those conversations, like this one, happened years ago. Its fine to discuss, just realize the game is so far a long that major systems have already been decided upon at this point.
    • 2752 posts
    April 20, 2018 6:25 PM PDT

    philo said: Yep, besides the fact that this thread is just a rehash of old threads, we know there will be localized AHs.

    Source?

    • 1860 posts
    April 20, 2018 7:33 PM PDT

    Brad a few months back, lemme see if I can dig it up...maybe someone better at digging up stuff than me will post it.  

    Edit: this was it:

    https://twitch.tv/videos/139626575?t=01h27m42s


    This post was edited by philo at April 20, 2018 7:53 PM PDT
    • 793 posts
    April 21, 2018 4:49 AM PDT

    I have stated it on a few of the many other AH threads :), but I just want some sort of listing and searching option. I do not want auto-matic online trading (click and it appears  in your inventory).

    I am fine with consignment type NPCs for those (including myself) who don't enjoy spending time shouting out my sellables (hence the listing, that they can contact me while I'm still doing other things). This actually makes those that are nearby the market "boards" more appealing sellers as they can do transactions on the spot, but doesn't exclude others that want to sell but still go out and adventure. , again consignment helps here too.

    Regional markets I think would really help create a variety in item pricing, and help control monopolies (Although the exclusivity of items helps that too). 

    One thing I think would be cool if they do a market board, would be that you can only pull it up if you're within a certain area, you could not browse the market from deep within some dungeon. Like you have to be within the market for you to open the market listing window. This would be better than a "board" you walk up to and click, as that would be a mob of people around that one spot.

    "You have entered Thronefast Market"

     

     

    • 1479 posts
    April 21, 2018 5:53 AM PDT

    I think it would be fair to have dematerialized selling boards or markets, because as we cannot "play" our character's sleep time or poop time, we can't play a whole life of adventuring and reselling because we have busy lifes.

    The market can be crippled by a tax making automatic trade a good moneysink, and favoring manual trading which would be taxless. Local markets can help regulate the flow, but as EC existed, I bet only one market will be favored and all the others will probably be neglected.

    Clearly I'm not a fond of "EC Era" where you need to spend hours selling a few crap with no clue of the market prices, mostly because I don't have hours to spend there. If it's the "main selling way", I'll probably not bother doing it at all, and focus on farming / getting what I need by myself and my friends.

    • 3852 posts
    April 21, 2018 7:18 AM PDT

    I think the central vision of the game gets confused quite a bit in these threads.

    That the goal is to have more complex and slower gameplay with a lot of social interaction is certain.

    This does not mean that every element of the game is intended to be slow and complicated. 

    VR has never said that tedium and inconvenience are core objectives.

    It would be argumentative to say that a bazaar is more tedious and inconvenient than a broker or auction house and I am not giving an opinion on this (I have earlier no need to repeat). I am simply saying that wanting one particular part of the game to be "easy, convenient and fast" is NOT the same as saying the game in general should be that way.