Forums » Pantheon Classes

Necromancer Worries

    • 64 posts
    May 4, 2018 10:00 AM PDT

    I think necromancer, d2 comes to mind. Poison, Disease, Undead. As far as CC goes, yeah I can see them as a "situational" CC, being able to CC undead or something. Overall, I have to agree, I view them as a DPS class overall with other abilities being siutational.

    As far as dealing with summoning corpse. I've recently talked on Saicred's channel about the idea of having an npc ingame that offers corpse summoning for a price. This price scales with your level so as you gain levels, the price goes up. To avoid abusing this and to not have this as the "go-to" thing, still making corpse summoning from class(s) viable, have a cooldown timer that a player can only use this service once per RL 12-24hrs. It's also a safety next, I can remember a few times, in EQ and other games where I lost my corpse for varity of reasons. 

    • 36 posts
    May 14, 2018 11:10 AM PDT

    Darkintellect said:

    Jordan said:

    No. This is not right. Any necromancer worth his salt will tell you that necromancer DPS is situational. Much of "necro dps" only happens when soloing. In a group the necromancer must take the role of healer, cc, life/mana management, and controlling a potentially powerful charm.

    In most every group I've been in as an Enchanter or with an Alt where we had no Enchanter, Necros trying to CC has always ended as an extremely limited use or in failure if in a dungeon and too many mobs were pulled. Their limited CC spell just won't cut it when I'm there to lock down 2-8 mobs. If they cast fear, they usually get booted due to fear of that feared mob aggroing adjacent mobs that either respawned or are too close for comfort. As for charm, that applies if we're fighting undead, but means removing their stable pet for a very situational one. The vast majority of fights are not with undead in Everquest.

    As for healing, it's a limited healing over time but yes it can help but is never a replacement for actual heals in a group where burst healing is necessary. Mana battery though is what they ended up being, especially in the raid environment. Many who hated to be reduced to this role had their issues, but it was ultimately the most useful feature aside for their added DPS which rivaled Wizards.

    They will likely have interesting ways to use their abilities in Pantheon but I doubt we'll see them in league with an Enchanter regarding CC. More like Rogue maybe with a very situational and limited single target version. I do see the weaving of death and life though and they may have the ability to act as a vessel in transfering health from mobs into group members. Will they be compareable to a Druid, Shaman or Cleric? Of course not but it'll be an interesting dynamic to add to their primary role which has always been DPS.

    Frankly, sir, your choice of forum words is offensive and inappropriate to say the least.

    Necro useless as CC, useless as heals eh? Mana sharing obviously seems trivial in your eyes, and charming for necromancers is apparently just too hard to do thus it's not even worth doing.... If this is truly the case, why not just scrap the Necromancer class all together in Pantheon as it seems pointless. I'm sure the Creative Director would be very pleased to hear this! Afterall, it means less work for him and his team right?

    This excrement is liquid keyboard spew. Take your useless opinions regarding Necromancers and leave these forums, pitiful weak-minded fizzle.


    This post was edited by Jordan at May 15, 2018 12:26 AM PDT
    • 1072 posts
    May 14, 2018 3:45 PM PDT

    I don't see what is offensive and inappropriate. While you have a very high (too high probably) of the necromancer's possibilities that includes a step in every role, his vision is different from yours and less chauvinist.

    What is important is not what we want to be able to do, or fantasize, about the abilities of our characters. But what will fit them right and not step on each other's role, making any class more mandatory than any of their counterparts due to poor balance.

    • 989 posts
    May 14, 2018 3:59 PM PDT

    @Jordan He's stating how necros were in EQ.  No need for the "excrement" comments.  Necros excelled as a solo class.  They could heal but it wasn't great.  They could do a bit of CC but it wasn't great.  In raid settings they would cast a few dots but were then regulated to mana battery duty.

    Most classes couldn't do all of those things at once.  Necro was a very powerful class.  But you can't expect to be able to do all of those things and be the best at any of them.

      For example, mages were in much worse shape than necros imo.  They were almost as good as a necro solo but not quite.  Mages couldn't heal at all.  Their only CC was against summoned mobs (which was even less useful than undead only CC) but they didn't have any type of CC that worked on normal mobs like fear (other than root from their pet and it had a very limited duration).  In raids, mages would throw a few mediocre nukes and then be regulated to mod rod duty.

     


    This post was edited by philo at May 14, 2018 4:01 PM PDT
    • 36 posts
    May 15, 2018 12:09 AM PDT

    philo said:

    @Jordan He's stating how necros were in EQ.  No need for the "excrement" comments.  Necros excelled as a solo class.  They could heal but it wasn't great.  They could do a bit of CC but it wasn't great.  In raid settings they would cast a few dots but were then regulated to mana battery duty.

    Most classes couldn't do all of those things at once.  Necro was a very powerful class.  But you can't expect to be able to do all of those things and be the best at any of them.

      For example, mages were in much worse shape than necros imo.  They were almost as good as a necro solo but not quite.  Mages couldn't heal at all.  Their only CC was against summoned mobs (which was even less useful than undead only CC) but they didn't have any type of CC that worked on normal mobs like fear (other than root from their pet and it had a very limited duration).  In raids, mages would throw a few mediocre nukes and then be regulated to mod rod duty.

    Quite right. +1

    Best at anything besides balancing life and death? Nope. Best lifetaps and CR; that's about it really.

    Every individual ability should be able to be done better by another class even DoTs and pets. The Necromancer is special because he, and he alone, can create almost all of these effects one way or another.

    Not even bards can lifetap or corpse summon. In some games they have been known to rez... and that's cool -- just not very thematic.


    This post was edited by Jordan at May 15, 2018 12:11 AM PDT
    • 36 posts
    May 15, 2018 12:20 AM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    What is important is not what we want to be able to do, or fantasize, about the abilities of our characters. But what will fit them right and not step on each other's role, making any class more mandatory than any of their counterparts due to poor balance.

    Poor balance is quite certainly what we'll have since the team hasn't even started work on the Necromancer class.

    But I don't want to hear about any so called "fantasizing." I've played the role of Necromancer and Blood Mage for many years. To my surprise, I have even been told I am "The best Necromancer" more than a couple times. I'd rather not have words put in my mouth that I didn't speak nor be considered a dreaming poet of some disgusting sort. I'll just take your HP and and a few EEs before you head out. Now, begone! Go join the Shaman or Bard forums.


    This post was edited by Jordan at May 15, 2018 3:01 AM PDT
    • 1072 posts
    May 15, 2018 4:20 AM PDT

    Here is the problem : ego

    Maybe if you weren't contemplating yourself, you would have noticed this isn't a necromancer board and none shall begone wherever.

     

    This is a general pantheon classes forum.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at May 15, 2018 4:34 AM PDT
    • Moderator
    • 8112 posts
    May 15, 2018 5:07 PM PDT

    Folks, please keep it civil and avoid any personal attacks, everyone has an opinion on their favourite class, it may not always align with yours but that is no reason to argue or attack people so please be the bigger person and walk away if it happens to save me from extra work! 

    • 36 posts
    May 15, 2018 6:33 PM PDT

    Sorry, Kilsin. It won't happen again.


    This post was edited by Jordan at May 15, 2018 6:34 PM PDT
    • 1072 posts
    May 15, 2018 11:51 PM PDT

    My apologies for the tone and sharp answers. We all want pantheon to be good and succeed.

    • 68 posts
    May 18, 2018 3:30 PM PDT

    Rengrave said:

    Frostyglitch said:

    You sound like a fan of the original Guild Wars.  Even if you're not I can tell you some of those ideas of yours were in that game and I hated them.  I say leave Necro's alone, they were fine in EQ.  If you wanna add abilities or whatnot to give them more meaning in groups then by all means.  Otherwise, stay off my lawn.

    I have to disagree here on a few levels. 

    Your assertion that "...they were fine in EQ." I think they were only fine in the context of soloing and having just 1 or 2 in a raid. They were almost completely ostricised from group play as they did so poorly on trash when there was an enchanter around. And any serious group had an enchanter. There were some serious dot stacking issues that prevented multiple necro's from working well together.

    While they were great solo in EQ, I think it would be a huge mistake to design a class for this game that is great solo but poor in groups. That is counter to one of the specific desgin tenets VR has laid out for us, that being this is a group focused game. Solo content will not be created. Why handicap a class with a benefit that is counter to one of the prime tenets of the game?

    I get that you like the dot based caster class. I did too, the longest running character I had in WoW Vanilla was a Warlock. I loved going out and dotting up a slew of mobs and then bouncing them all around with fear. It was super fun and I used to make a mini game of seeing how many I could juggle at a time. Here's the thing about that, it was a solo activity, I could not do this in group content. It would have been disastrous in dungeons and meerly annoying as hell in the open world to my group mates.

    Dot based casting just does not play well with groups when CC is used. You can only dot one at a time and typically the mobs die so fast that dots are not at all efficient, they don't have time to run their course. 

    I think another part of your post I have to disagree with is your "Otherwise, stay off my lawn." sentiment. Why can the class not be reimagined into something new? It sure sounds like the Dire Lord is doing something different to what we have seen from SK, (my favorite class) but I am still excited for the new class.

    As far as being slovenly mired in the idea that the class of necro in EQ is the definitive necro, I would suggest that is not the case. Disease, poison, and fire are actually not what necromancy is about. Necromancy is about death and death magic. 

    Here's hoping we see a new fresh take on Necromancer. One that fits better into the new world order VR is putting forth in Pantheon. (We really do need a second CC dedicated class so Enchanter is not the only class that fills this essential role!)

    Brad has stated there will be content in the game for those folks that don't have time to join a group and just need a quick play session so let's be clear that that there will be plenty of soloable content; that's just not what this game is all about and for good reason.  If you think about it much of Everquest's content wasn't "intended" to be soloable either.  All the camps always had multiple mobs that would aggro at the same time which at first made them seem impossible to solo.  It was the users imaginations with the abilities we had at hand that made soloing possible.  

    Necro's were often ostracized in groups because they were misunderstood as there were always a lot of assumptions made by folks.  Mainly that because people that played Necros would be incapable of playing properly in a group because they didn't have the experience doing it.  But mark my words if you ever had the pleasure of playing with someone that intimately knew the class they were just as capable as anyone else in the group.

    There are certainly things that can be done to give this class a unique competative advantage over others in regards to raids and you can do so without completely changing what we've grown to know and love about them.  As I stated my in previous post I don't mind seeing new abilities or whatnot.  What I don't want to see Guild Wars ideas making their way into Pantheon..for instance I hated temporary pets.  If they became a light utlity in addition to a main pet that's one thing, but I wouldn't want to be constantly summoning all the time. My vision of the Necro is that while they definitely consider pets despensible, the will and reagents required for them make it foolish for one to not do their best to keep them alive as long as possible.

    I have faith that this team will do the right thing, assuming the Necro makes it into the game at all.

     


    This post was edited by Frostyglitch at May 18, 2018 3:33 PM PDT
    • 271 posts
    May 22, 2018 10:01 AM PDT
    In EQ, I mained SHD but had an alt necro that did FAR more DPS than I did at the same level in a group. We can’t forget how effective (and easily sustained/disposable) their pets were when buffed (compared to any tank or other caster’s burst/mama dependent DPS). That’s how I remember my necro’s pet in the 50s... doing more dmg than a ranger of equal level. Granted I’m sure end game gear would make the melee DPS incredible in comparison, but at end game the necro could likely utilize their DoT because the NPCs wouldn’t die in a few seconds. They were also capable of never needing to waste a healer’s precious mana because they were either 1-shot or able to FD and tap to full.
    As others have said though, I’m completely fine with them doing away with their DoT reliability in substitute to have them be the 3rd CC role. Perhaps their DPS can come from sacrificing their life’s energy to enhance their pet’s damage. (Like their max HP lowers and they look more skeletal as their pet goes from skeleton to rotted corpse to undead golem).
    • 36 posts
    August 7, 2018 3:03 PM PDT

    I am awake again after many months of sleeping. I am pleased to see the progress that the development team is making. I have begun to study the Direlord video; very good stuff. Let's keep going!

    Dance! Dance in the shadows with me!

    <3

    PS: My sincerest apologies again for hurling personal insults like pennies. I am a bit wiser now. All offense in my mind is forgotten.

    • 36 posts
    • 36 posts
    August 7, 2018 3:10 PM PDT
    • 36 posts
    August 7, 2018 3:13 PM PDT
    • 36 posts
    August 7, 2018 3:15 PM PDT

    I see what you're doing here, Mr. Creative Director. I approve ... now. Give us that book of darkness wrapped in a nice pure caster package wont you please? I don't care how long it takes you!

    Much <3 for you Chris.

    Thank you for listening to us.

    • 1072 posts
    August 7, 2018 11:42 PM PDT

    The Direlord seems great for now, very versatile with a stance-flexibility system really appealing.

    I however don't think it will "fit" the necromancer's spirit, however it looks way more shaped than the old Shadow Knight we were awaiting for.

     

    Good trade you took a sneak peak at that new class with interest !

    • 131 posts
    September 3, 2018 10:42 PM PDT

    I hope the necro class is being delayed for one single good reason : to make the class a new, original class with its own unique gameplay, and NOT a copy-pasta from Everquest's Necro.

     

    • 36 posts
    September 21, 2018 12:46 PM PDT

    bobwinner said:

    I hope the necro class is being delayed for one single good reason : to make the class a new, original class with its own unique gameplay, and NOT a copy-pasta from Everquest's Necro.

     

    Yep. Agreed.

    I'd like to see a necromancer with Stances as well.

    The first thing that occurs to me is a stance for DPS/Lifetap power, one for regeneration/lich, and one for healing/twitching and rezzing/raising more efficiently. There is no reason a Necromancer cannot be played as a strong backup healer; this role would suit him very well thematically.


    This post was edited by Jordan at September 21, 2018 12:49 PM PDT
    • 1072 posts
    September 21, 2018 1:12 PM PDT

    Jordan said:

    bobwinner said:

    I hope the necro class is being delayed for one single good reason : to make the class a new, original class with its own unique gameplay, and NOT a copy-pasta from Everquest's Necro.

     

    Yep. Agreed.

    I'd like to see a necromancer with Stances as well.

    The first thing that occurs to me is a stance for DPS/Lifetap power, one for regeneration/lich, and one for healing/twitching and rezzing/raising more efficiently. There is no reason a Necromancer cannot be played as a strong backup healer; this role would suit him very well thematically.

     

    I really don't know how they plan to make some "cross role variability". As we know for now, the druid has a little emphasis on damage throught wet status and Stormy areas, however how will it compete with DPS ? In essence, all roles are standing on the field of DPS class by a margin of some sort (Everyone can and will do damage, just not as much) and the monk seems to have a few tools to grab an unexpected add and offtank a bit. Even the enchanter, as a controler, seems to nuke the crap out of mobs at the same time. The Paladin also has some group heals that might be great, for now I don't know.

    How will other classes step on other's toes ? I'm not sure a stance would be necessary here in the sense a different spell setup would serve the same "goal". Looking at Direlord's stance, the choice is between More hate, More ressource or more damage, but nothing twists the gameplay or functionnality of skills and spells.

     

    I'm really all for the necromancers having life to mana conversion, and lifetaps. To me it's iconic to see them juggle between life and mana like it was only one ressource. I'd even be fine if everything cost them life but that can be really detrimental in raid situation.

    • 36 posts
    September 21, 2018 1:32 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I'm really all for the necromancers having life to mana conversion, and lifetaps. To me it's iconic to see them juggle between life and mana like it was only one ressource. I'd even be fine if everything cost them life but that can be really detrimental in raid situation.

    Yep maintaning the balance between life and death is the key for sure. Blood magic stance is something I am most certainly in favor of (all spells cost HP instead of mana while in Blood Magic Trance).

    As far as stepping on toes: I think we can probably hash that out once each class has his or her own identity. Nerfs and buffs to classes will most certainly happen in some form or another to acheive balance. A necromancer will probably always be stepping on toes in one fashion or the other though. Their role is loosely defined in a group or raid situation. The "solo monster" has to adapt if he wants his groupmates or guildies to find him necessary and valuable, no?

    I think we can all agree Feign Death combined with some lesser heals and lesser rezzes would be a nice start for carving out a niche.

    • 1072 posts
    September 21, 2018 1:43 PM PDT

    Jordan said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    I'm really all for the necromancers having life to mana conversion, and lifetaps. To me it's iconic to see them juggle between life and mana like it was only one ressource. I'd even be fine if everything cost them life but that can be really detrimental in raid situation.

    Yep maintaning the balance between life and death is the key for sure. Blood magic stance is something I am most certainly in favor of (all spells cost HP instead of mana while in Blood Magic Trance).

    As far as stepping on toes: I think we can probably hash that out once each class has his or her own identity. Nerfs and buffs to classes will most certainly happen in some form or another to acheive balance. A necromancer will probably always be stepping on toes in one fashion or the other though. Their role is loosely defined in a group or raid situation. The "solo monster" has to adapt if he wants his groupmates or guildies to find him necessary and valuable, no?

    I think we can all agree Feign Death combined with some lesser heals and lesser rezzes would be a nice start for carving out a niche.

     

    If the Direlord has no FD I'd be jealous of the necromancer having some. No jokes.

     

    However I agree that in a way, multiple roles will step on each others too. Smoke and mirror looked like a powerfull emergency mez for now, not making the enchanter useless but making less of a burden on him to catch every surprise scenario. Like said, as everyone does step on DPS roles due to everyone having damaging abilities and such, so every DPS should also step a bit on different roles and functionnalities if they don't bring unique tools (like FD / stealth, which are unique) to the tables. And even there, there are multiple scenarios where uniques abilities can shine even if they are stepping on some other class, as long as it's cooldown or cost makes it so it doesn't replace a main role.

     

    Edit : For a rez I would consider it balanced if it had a pretty long cooldown (forcing an unused slot of some sort), and a hefty life cost : Raising death into true life should cost close to the necromancer's own life. I wouldn't want a necromancer to be the most optimal way to rez, or a class you take specifically for that. The rez sounds like a tool it should be used in a forced scenario or as an emergency lifesaver, but not a regular resurrection.


    This post was edited by MauvaisOeil at September 21, 2018 1:47 PM PDT
    • 36 posts
    September 21, 2018 2:50 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Edit : For a rez I would consider it balanced if it had a pretty long cooldown (forcing an unused slot of some sort), and a hefty life cost : Raising death into true life should cost close to the necromancer's own life. I wouldn't want a necromancer to be the most optimal way to rez, or a class you take specifically for that. The rez sounds like a tool it should be used in a forced scenario or as an emergency lifesaver, but not a regular resurrection.

    Very much agree! Rezzing another should knock the necromancer unconcsious with 1 hp for a short time.

    A unique way the necro may be able to bring some damage could be via necromantic auras. Pain Aura/Blood Frenzy for instance. A group buff that is only active on others when Necro is in the group. Something like... everyone affected by Pain Aura loses 2hp per tick while providing a stacking damage shield that has a chance to inflict a light to moderate personal lifetap DoT when hit :)

    Terror Shroud another aura affecting the group. Anyone hit while Terror Shroud is active has a chance of proccing a paralyzing fear on their target (fear effect 2/ 100% snare) for a few seconds. Slowly drains small amounts of mana from the Necromancer.

    Frozen Hatred: another aura affecting the group. Anyone hit under this affect has a high chance of proccing a medium duration slow/snare/DoT (frozen blood) while the enemy turns blue and shards of ice fall off him. Everyone effected by Frozen Hatred has their movement speed reduced by 10% (stacks with movement speed buffs).

    What do you think, Mauvais?

    PS:

    I posted these in another section. I think I may have mentioned some of them...

    Necromancer: Curse (a curse. All incoming damage is multiplied by a set amount)

    Necromancer: Cripple (a curse. All outgoing damage is reduced by a set amount)

    Necromancer: Addle (a curse. All resistances of the target are lowered especially those that are used to resist control effects like mez, root, snare, slow, stun, fear, curse, etc)

    Necromancer: Wither (a curse. Combines the effects of Curse, Cripple, and Addle but to a lesser extent. Also adds a stacking snare of 20%)

    Only one Curse may be active on a target at a time.

    Necromancer: Screaming Terror (essentially a Necromancer Mesmerize. This time adjust it to a fear that also snares 100%. If a target is frozen in fear it's not going to "wake up" when it's damaged. Short duration)

    • 1072 posts
    September 21, 2018 3:12 PM PDT

    Jordan said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Edit : For a rez I would consider it balanced if it had a pretty long cooldown (forcing an unused slot of some sort), and a hefty life cost : Raising death into true life should cost close to the necromancer's own life. I wouldn't want a necromancer to be the most optimal way to rez, or a class you take specifically for that. The rez sounds like a tool it should be used in a forced scenario or as an emergency lifesaver, but not a regular resurrection.

    Very much agree! Rezzing another should knock the necromancer unconcsious with 1 hp for a short time.

    A unique way the necro may be able to bring some damage could be via necromantic auras. Pain Aura/Blood Frenzy for instance. A group buff that is only active on others when Necro is in the group. Something like... everyone affected by Pain Aura loses 2hp per tick while providing a stacking damage shield that has a chance to inflict a light to moderate personal lifetap DoT when hit :)

    Terror Shroud another aura affecting the group. Anyone hit while Terror Shroud is active has a chance of proccing a paralyzing fear on their target (fear effect 2/ 100% snare) for a few seconds. Slowly drains small amounts of mana from the Necromancer.

    Frozen Hatred: another aura affecting the group. Anyone hit under this affect has a high chance of proccing a medium duration slow/snare/DoT (frozen blood) while the enemy turns blue and shards of ice fall off him. Everyone effected by Frozen Hatred has their movement speed reduced by 10% (stacks with movement speed buffs).

    What do you think, Mauvais?

    PS:

    I posted these in another section. I think I may have mentioned some of them...

    Necromancer: Curse (a curse. All incoming damage is multiplied by a set amount)

    Necromancer: Cripple (a curse. All outgoing damage is reduced by a set amount)

    Necromancer: Addle (a curse. All resistances of the target are lowered especially those that are used to resist control effects like mez, root, snare, slow, stun, fear, curse, etc)

    Necromancer: Wither (a curse. Combines the effects of Curse, Cripple, and Addle but to a lesser extent. Also adds a stacking snare of 20%)

    Only one Curse may be active on a target at a time.

    Necromancer: Screaming Terror (essentially a Necromancer Mesmerize. This time adjust it to a fear that also snares 100%. If a target is frozen in fear it's not going to "wake up" when it's damaged. Short duration)

     

    I view auras as something more emanating from Warlords type characters, such as tanks or heavy impressive guys. For the necromancer, an adept in life and death magic, I'd prefer some cripling rampant things, such as debuff likes jumping and spreading throught oponent.

    Like : Curse/parasite of fear : Inflict your target with a curse that reduces it's offense/defense/whatever for 18 seconds, every 3 seconds, the curse will try to spread to another close oponent. withouth a damage component this spell would effectively spread to an entire mob pack withouth interfering with the controler's job, and while in the end it would meet the same fate as an aura, it's functionnality would make it spread like plague and such.

     

    You can make the same for offense :

     

    Parasite of frenzy : Afflict your defensive target with a lingering curse that will enhance it's battle effects (whatever it is, attack speed, damage, crit,) but drains them of HP at a slow rate. Every 3 seconds the parasite will try to spread to another group member close to the first one. This one can be tricky because it will naturally spread to friendly target with a potential damage component, that can effectively be negative or counter any mob that would mez them, making it an edge in such situation. Outside of such situation, you would try to contain the curse to melee DPS withouth affecting the tank (if it drains much HP) withouth affecting unecessary characters (healers, mages), that would not benefit of it.

     

    This line of spell can be adapted to pretty much every statistic buff or debuff in the game, and maybe the necromancer could release it, gaining HP for as much target are affected (or as much time it was active overall ? ) but that would kill the possibility to recast it until it's totally over, I think it's worth the shot anyway. The spell's duration could be tweaked to be lower, making it useless in single spells scenarios where it couldn't spread back and forth between at least, two ennemies.

     

    Overall, many buffs/debuffs are possibly, and since the enchanter already own haste lines, and the shamans has numerous debuffs, in the archetype of damage dealers, I think neither the wizard or the magician does really shine un dots or debuffs, so it's fitting for that role to be promeninent in this line, whatever it brings. It just shouldn't be fully maintainable by a single character, or we would fall in the same pitfall the necro in EQ had : non multiple stacking dots (or debuffs in this case, it wouldn't be wise to allow multiple necros to criple an ennemy on the same atributes) that would hinder their performance. Maybe only one parasite/curse/whatever could be active per necromancer at a time, so multiple necromancers would have to organize themselves to cover every buff and debuff.