Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

We will need raids (or something)

    • 5 posts
    April 16, 2018 11:32 AM PDT
    Instancing should be limited as much as possible. I would be ok with instancing the starting zones for a few weeks even months as the game lunches because there is no better cost effective solutions since we all going to start out lvl 1 in the same few locations. However after time as the population spreads out that should be turned off so people cant exploit it and since it no longer serves its purpose. In general, I see instancing as a quick fix to larger game development failures which should have been addressed by other means. Those failures usually include lack of content, severely unbalanced exp/itemization/zone design, and lack of alternate game systems to mitgate overpopulation. Some alternative systems could include scaling trash respawn times based on area population, spawning of some raid mobs being based other things instead of just time like distributive guild tasks, limited charactor lookout times, and simply a nice spread of content with alternative things to do. If systems are put in place early and overpopulation considerations are taken into account in every stage of development than instacing is not needed except in some rare instances like game lunch.
    • 1014 posts
    April 16, 2018 11:52 AM PDT

    Instance vs open world.  If the mechanics are sound the there can be both I would think.  Many games use this option and it works well.  It depends on the content and what it is used for.  I would think that the Devs have looked at this and are actively working on that, but they have stated time and time again that this is a game designed on the past.   What does that mean?  We may see the old mechanics in full color and beauty as they were created back in the early days.  Is that optimal for some people?  No, but that is what this game is about. 

    The other problem is we are still very early in the development and who knows the devs may have to make some changes to the open world vs instance game play.  Let’s see what they come up with and support it either way.   

     

    I know there will be some flak on this but hey if your taking flack you are over the target….

     

    Ox

    • 2368 posts
    April 16, 2018 11:58 AM PDT

    If I could only have one raid zone in the game, it would be this:  http://www.fantheonmmo.com/topic/11-legendary-dungeon-crawl/

    I am far more concerned about meaningful progression and replay value than creating a power gap between raiders and non-raiders.  Replay value is everything if we're talking about a limited amount of raid content.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 16, 2018 11:58 AM PDT
    • 1014 posts
    April 16, 2018 12:15 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    If I could only have one raid zone in the game, it would be this:  http://www.fantheonmmo.com/topic/11-legendary-dungeon-crawl/

    I am far more concerned about meaningful progression and replay value than creating a power gap between raiders and non-raiders.  Replay value is everything if we're talking about a limited amount of raid content.

    Man read that twice.  That is a very cool concept.  You and your band of raiders better have it together.  I love the depth aspect.  Its not something you can just run through and it has adventures with adventures.  That is a dynamic we don’t see on that level anymore.  I have to say I could get into that type of instance. 

     

    Ox

    • 2368 posts
    April 16, 2018 12:27 PM PDT

    @Ox ---  Glad you like the idea!  The concept was revised to remove the need for instancing. Not sure if you read the GoD excerpt but it would be an open world dungeon. Concept was inspired by favorite RPG dungeon of all time from Lufia 2.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 16, 2018 12:27 PM PDT
    • 457 posts
    April 16, 2018 12:51 PM PDT

    Instancing starting zones should not be necessary. As people log on, they will probably see "Low / Med / High" server population notices, and people will then spread out to other servers where possible. Not everyone is going to be logging into the same server at start up.

     

     

     

    • 327 posts
    April 16, 2018 12:59 PM PDT
    So many people are worried how there wont be any endgame content and the game isnt out in a finished state yet. All we are seeing is bits and pieces. VR has a solid plan and i bet you wont be disappointed once you reach max level. I am sure the dev’s would love to hear any idea you have. I personally plan to level as quickly as i can so i can play a progeny character! Im looking forward to enjoying all the features and dynamic content.
    • 327 posts
    April 16, 2018 1:02 PM PDT
    Original solved the ‘instancing’ back in the day by creating new servers. We dont need instancing. We need balanced server populations
    • 236 posts
    April 16, 2018 1:38 PM PDT

    An excerpt from Brad on Sandbox vs. Themepark:

    What I'm getting at there and have posted about in the past is our desire to, especially post-launch, offer additional advancement paths.  We're of course starting with the basics (would be foolish not to):  awesome combat/hack-n-slash combined with some pretty cool questing ideas (perception, etc.).   Bottom line:  Pantheon at launch is an awesome PvE adventuring MMO.

    Some of the alternate horizontal paths will be present (I would consider harvesting/crafting to be one).  But what I'm tallking about for the future would be somewhat akin to what we tried in VG (no need to go into what happened there).   In other words, in VG you could be a level 5 adventurer, level 10 crafter, and level 8 diplomat.  

    You may ask perhaps, "why aren't you launching with more than one path?" and the answer is simply that we've learned not to bite off more than we can chew.  We know if we make an awesome adventure PvE MMO we will be successful ehough to then grow the team perhaps even further and put some of our efforts (in addition to the live and expansion teams) into additional paths.  Conversely if we offer 2 or 3 paths but the core game isn't solid, doesn't perform well, doesn't have enough content, then we are in big trouble.

    So I see the future (post-launch) involve additional advancement paths which would make the game more sandboxy.  And then, although this will take a bit longer, the ability for players (or a subset of players) to create content themselves.   I'm going to leave it at that though as I don't want to over-hype post-launch stuff, plus I'm pretty sure I've already posted in the past about User Generated Content.

    Looks like they have have plenty of plans for content.

    • 371 posts
    April 16, 2018 1:43 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    If I could only have one raid zone in the game, it would be this:  http://www.fantheonmmo.com/topic/11-legendary-dungeon-crawl/

    I am far more concerned about meaningful progression and replay value than creating a power gap between raiders and non-raiders.  Replay value is everything if we're talking about a limited amount of raid content.

    Oh you mean Palace of the Dead in FF 14?

    If I could have one raid zone in the game, it would be Temple of Veeshan, except you'd have to clear both east and west every time before you go north twards Aaryonar.


    This post was edited by Venjenz at April 16, 2018 1:48 PM PDT
    • 818 posts
    April 16, 2018 1:58 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    If I could only have one raid zone in the game, it would be this:  http://www.fantheonmmo.com/topic/11-legendary-dungeon-crawl/

    I am far more concerned about meaningful progression and replay value than creating a power gap between raiders and non-raiders.  Replay value is everything if we're talking about a limited amount of raid content.

    Hell. Yes. 

    • 197 posts
    April 16, 2018 2:49 PM PDT

    I think they should have one starter raid as an instance that any casual guild could at least set up times to raid and struggle to complete.  Something similar to Molten Core.  Just reduce the amount of loot drops to like one or two items per boss.  Keep it as a weekly raid.  That way there is always something to raid and progress.  And that one raid could keep a casual guild going for like a year.  I think the other 90% of end game content should be open world.  Once they get enough raid content, the top guilds will focus on the high end stuff, the mid tier guilds will fight for the scraps, and the lower tier or casual guilds can tag something from time to time but keep working on that one instanced raid if nothing else.  

    • 2368 posts
    April 16, 2018 5:02 PM PDT

    @Venjenz  --  Never played Palace of the Dead myself but I can tell you this much, whatever iteration they did in FFXIV was a failure.  My sister in law plays FFXIV and I actually asked her about it the other day ... she said PotD is mostly used as a "grinding mechanism"  --  that right there ruins it.  Either way, it's pretty obvious that Square Enix was trying to replicate the Ancient Cave from Lufia 2.  I have read up on PotD and there were several major differences.  It absolutely positively shouldn't be used as a way to power level.  I want extremely challenging content with amazing replay value and meaningful progression.  You generally can't give the raiders something they can pour countless hours into because it would cause such a massive power flux that it would break the rest of the game.  I hope you can appreciate the critical differences between the GoD concept outlined in that thread and what you may have experienced in FFXIV.

    @Tralyan  --  I know we have talked about this elsewhere and I think it's really easy for anybody who actually played Lufia 2 to have a deep appreciation for a dungeon designed this way.  I have spent the vast majority of my MMO years as a hardcore raider and if there is one thing that is absolutely true, it's the first tenet ... Content is King.  I don't care so much about the loot as I do just having something I can do with my entire guild.  That's why I enjoy raiding  --  the walls come down and we get to tackle content together.  Having a high replay value raid zone could make or break this game for some folks so if it truly ends up being a really limited part of the game, I hope VR goes out of their way to ensure that whatever raid content ends up making it into the game is built to last for the long haul.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 16, 2018 5:03 PM PDT
    • 327 posts
    April 16, 2018 9:34 PM PDT
    I get the feeling that no rent items are going to play a large part in many of the bosses or upper tier zones. Just judging from the halnir cave vids
    • 717 posts
    April 16, 2018 11:35 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    @Venjenz  --  Never played Palace of the Dead myself but I can tell you this much, whatever iteration they did in FFXIV was a failure.  My sister in law plays FFXIV and I actually asked her about it the other day ... she said PotD is mostly used as a "grinding mechanism"  --  that right there ruins it.  Either way, it's pretty obvious that Square Enix was trying to replicate the Ancient Cave from Lufia 2.  I have read up on PotD and there were several major differences.  It absolutely positively shouldn't be used as a way to power level.  I want extremely challenging content with amazing replay value and meaningful progression.  You generally can't give the raiders something they can pour countless hours into because it would cause such a massive power flux that it would break the rest of the game.  I hope you can appreciate the critical differences between the GoD concept outlined in that thread and what you may have experienced in FFXIV.

    @Tralyan  --  I know we have talked about this elsewhere and I think it's really easy for anybody who actually played Lufia 2 to have a deep appreciation for a dungeon designed this way.  I have spent the vast majority of my MMO years as a hardcore raider and if there is one thing that is absolutely true, it's the first tenet ... Content is King.  I don't care so much about the loot as I do just having something I can do with my entire guild.  That's why I enjoy raiding  --  the walls come down and we get to tackle content together.  Having a high replay value raid zone could make or break this game for some folks so if it truly ends up being a really limited part of the game, I hope VR goes out of their way to ensure that whatever raid content ends up making it into the game is built to last for the long haul.

     

    I'm not your sister in law but I'll agree with her : PoTd sucks, it's the kind of feature that is funny the first two times, and the more effective chore for sub classes levelling afterwards. It's not fun, it's rarelly tactic (at least in the 1-100 levels) and you end up constantly resetting your progression to keep in the range of doable levels with pug, which obsession is about being the FASTEST POSSIBLE to be done with.

    There are chest no one opens, because they are done with them and only wants to end the floors fasts, and anyway doing the last "boss" will result in a net gain that is ensured, while chests are extremely RNG and take time and a few min of planning sometimes. Trinity is useless (there is even a "solo ladder" for this feature, neat... ), mobs are highly predictable and melt like butter, and everything is timed so you get ejected if you were taking more than an hour for 10 levels. Since everyone comes here farming level (as gear does not apply, it's easier than open world content or even dungeon), loots are worthless and sold a misery.

    I've however, never played the last 100 levels that were un puggable and rumored to be hard, simply because I couldn't bear the mechanics anymore. If your whole group died you would loose your progress on the 10 current levels, and end up starting over on a different pattern/scheme. If only one player died, whatever there are rez stones at every layer if you thought healers weren't useless enough yet.

     

    Let's face it : As many FFXIV design, it's shortsighted quick to trash content, and you end up doing it like a slave for a few weeks, then forget about it forever : Really bad design.

    • 371 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:05 AM PDT

    When I linked Palace of the Dead, I wasn't praising it, rather I was just providng an example of the endless dungeon. I burned out on it simply because everyone found a niche grind of 10-50 levels they did over and over and over, plus I was a tank, so my queue times for normal dungeons/trials were typically measured in seconds.

    But they have the endless dungeon of increasing difficulty, and imho, it's kinda weak. It could be done well I guess, but eventually, a level band whereeveryone grinds the same 10 levels endlessly would emerge, and it would become like PotD.

    Give me the Kunark-Velious raid cycle and all raiding for at least two years would be solid. Consider the keying, flagging and just straight gear grinding progressions, much less the difficlty of new raids at the time. Toss in the endurance matches added to Luclin and PoP, and really, you cover a pretty serious chunk of time for even the most dedicated raid guilds.

    • 1218 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:36 AM PDT

    I spent a lot of time in PoTD because I truly hated the real FFXIV dungeons. They were all about scripted encounters and going from pixel to pixel in a preset order rather than intelligent use of combat abilites. At least by higher level, that is.

    Palace of the Dead represented a method of grinding inside a dungeon and in a group - much like the level-agnostic dungeons of EQ2 and the instant adventures of Rift. Though far less useful for power leveling.

    I share the view that they are not consistant with the design philosophy here.


    This post was edited by dorotea at April 17, 2018 8:37 AM PDT
    • 717 posts
    April 17, 2018 8:40 AM PDT

    Really not fond of the "Progress gear era" velious added. That's really when the gear race began with multiple tiers of different stuff, multiple chest pieces with the same effects except stat bonuses growing to insane values. They burned like 3 expansions worth of gear scale in the single obsession of "making gear a tier-ed list", and frankly that sucks. Gear should be a mean to an objective and not an objective by itself, it shouldn't be so strict and should be spread arround many areas instead of concentrated.

    Raid are cool, but not the only end that should exist.

    • 327 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:41 AM PDT

    I think the biggest thing that can help spread raids out is just physical distance. By limiting fast transport you are going to limit a raid force's ability to kill every raid boss on the server in 1 night. Imagine running from eq1 Plane of Hate to velious NToV, by the time you get to the next location there probably wont be time for another location after the raid. This also allows for another raid force to kill other raid bosses while you are entangled in the other zones.

    This will allow for more spread out content say 1 dungeon maybe 2 a night. 

    And if the raid zones drop comparable gear the only reason to travel to different area's would be for epic quest or perception searching. This would promote fun stuff that builds comradary and not racing to kill everything unless you just want that as an achievement to tick off your list. 

    This wont eliminate mob camping, but if the mobs spawn more frequently or have a built-in lockout timer then you can foster competition that way. I know that the population will police itself, but why not implement a mechanic that limits the need to do so. If you have killed a raid boss in the previous 24 hours (lockout timer) his door slams shut and you cant even access his lair.

    I think alot of the drops from raid-style mobs should be crafting ingredients or elemental infusion items. Stuff that allows a deeper level of gameplay and not just "oh i killed those mobs and got those drops i am done". 


    This post was edited by kreed99 at April 17, 2018 9:49 AM PDT
    • 2368 posts
    April 17, 2018 9:54 AM PDT

    There are some major differences between the GoD concept I shared a link to and PotD. It wouldn't be an area where you go to grind levels. I would just turn off XP completely while inside. The idea behind it is to create a long lasting raid zone that players can sink countless hours into without contributing toward any significant power gap. It's all about content and replay value. The use of dispositions, various NPC behaviors, and NPC pools would help keep the content fresh and dynamic. The GoD exclusive progression would motivate players to want to come back for more and delve into the deeper wings of the dungeon. I spent a ton of time in the Ancient Cave in Lufia 2 and am highly confident that if the dungeon were designed correctly, and with the proper player motivators in mind, it would end up being a lot more fun than PotD.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 17, 2018 9:55 AM PDT
    • 644 posts
    April 17, 2018 1:25 PM PDT

    kreed99 said:

     Imagine running from eq1 Plane of Hate to velious NToV, by the time you get to the next location there probably wont be time for another location after the raid.

    Or, you have a guild bind point. Load your groups with wizards and druids. Port directly to cobalt scar while having caster gate to bind.  Succor groups across SG and have the wizards and druids return to bind to pick up the stragglers.  This process takes about 11 mins to go from PoH to ToV.

    Artificial time sinks like distance wont do anything to stop hardcore guilds from raiding.  It will only hurt lower end guilds that dont have enough players to make things like this happen. 

    • 2368 posts
    April 17, 2018 1:38 PM PDT

    Plenty of merit in what Porygon is saying.  I plan on having a second account where I will level up a summoner just to have an extra CoH for raiding.  Beyond that, I'll probably have a druid or wizard I'll be using to hand out teleport services to guild members as needed.  If travel really ends up being a big deal, as a guild leader, I would consider giving out a DKP bonus to anybody who levels up an alt summoner to assist with CoH summons.  Any edge that can possibly be leveraged will be used to maximum effect.  Mobility is extremely important in an open world game.  The most organized guilds will probably take down high value targets before the rest of the server even realizes they have spawned.  I hope the ghosting mechanic from Vanguard is still on the table, at least for some of the content.  At the end of the day, I think it's important that folks realize that these highly organized guilds aren't necessarily looking to prevent other guilds from progressing.  Brad touched on the "Event System" that is planned for Pantheon that basically explained how world awareness would be rewarding for guilds that were paying attention to what was going on.  You have to be opportunistic if you want to experience all that the game has to offer.  Content is king and if raids are going to be limited, as has been stated, I expect the raid scene to be extremely competitive.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at April 17, 2018 1:41 PM PDT
    • 327 posts
    April 17, 2018 2:47 PM PDT

    That is a valid point. When it comes to dynamic content fortune favors the prepared, i get it. I am just trying to promote a system that allows for local teams/groups, that are inzone, to gather and face the threat together in an impromptu pickup raid format while a highend guild mobilizes. Allowing for lowend guilds that took the time to plan and grind thier way to a boss at least a small cushion of time to attempt that fight. Don't get me wrong, if VR decides that portals are going to be allowed i will make every use of them. I'm not a sadist to the fact that i would intentionally make it hard on myself. I just want the game to have a high or at least a balanced risk/reward. Trivializing content lowers the risk and there will be enough of that as we gain levels. 

     

    • 327 posts
    April 17, 2018 2:53 PM PDT

    Porygon said:

    Or, you have a guild bind point. Load your groups with wizards and druids. Port directly to cobalt scar while having caster gate to bind.  Succor groups across SG and have the wizards and druids return to bind to pick up the stragglers.  This process takes about 11 mins to go from PoH to ToV.

    Artificial time sinks like distance wont do anything to stop hardcore guilds from raiding.  It will only hurt lower end guilds that dont have enough players to make things like this happen. 

    This 11 min port train is exactly the kind of thing that trivializes content. I understand the game mechanics are there and allow for it. These kind of fast travel situations were embraced by EQ, i am hoping VR does not embrace them. 

    • 665 posts
    April 17, 2018 5:56 PM PDT

    My thoughts (on raiding):

    1) Pantheon should have multiple forms of raid content.

    - Raid encounters in thematically appropriate places in group dungeons.

    - Entire zones designed for and devoted to progressing with a raid

    - Raid targets that spawn out in the world ("world bosses")

    - Triggered world events that result in, or ramp up to raid-level encounters (possibly multiple raid-level encounters occurring side by side.

     

    2) Raids should not be all about the "boss"

    - An encounter can be a single opponent such as a dragon or a large number of opponents (such as an army of the Revenant) or anything in between

    - In a zone designed for raiding, each encounter along the way to the final encounter should be unique and challenging in its own right - no "trash"

    - Encounters should involve traditional mechanics (responding to enemy attacks) but should also incorporate environmental challenges and puzzles

    - To avoid "bigger boss syndrome" in raid design, more advanced raid encounters should sometimes force players to split the party, or enforce other handicaps that require players to operate under sub-optimal conditions.

     

    3) Raid content should be generally plentiful but individually rare and special.

    - Apart from zones designed specifically for raiding, raid encounters, individually, should be rare.  However, there should be a lot of different raid encounters to balance this.

    - Under no circumstances should anything very desireable (whether a raid encounter or just a named loot-dropping mob) be on a static respawn timer outside of a raid zone.  Conditions and variance should be enforced so that when these encounters spawn, it feels like a special event - and there's not an army sitting there waiting for it.

    - For triggered raid encounters and events, the more powerful/desireable the encounter or event, the more complex the trigger to spawn it.  As an example, for the toughest/most rewarding raid encounters in the game, it should take guilds weeks to set up the trigger conditions for those encounters.

    - Availability should be designed so that there's always another raid encounter that can be done by someone interested.  It may simply not be the easiest/most convenient one to get to.

    - As a dungeon should be designed to support multiple (generally on the order of 5-8) groups running simultaneously, raid encounters should be placed and available to support 5-8 raids running simultaneously in the world.

    - Encounters should be spread out, challenging enough, and difficult enough to spawn/get to, that it is not really feasible for guilds to set up "rotations" where they're farming multiple encounters within the same evening or play session.

     

    4) Every encounter should have unique rewards, however, comparable rewards should be spread across multiple encounters.

    - Both difficulty and rarity of the encounter should matter when it comes to rewards.  The best rewards should come from the most difficult, rarest encounters.

    - No single encounter should ever reward all the "best" drops.  Those should be spread across many different encounters.

    - There should always be alternatives available to help mitigate competition over the best encounters.  For example, if a particular encounter drops the "best" set of daggers, there should exist other encounters that drop daggers that are almost as nice.

     

    5) Raiding should be an aspect of the game, but players should be actively discouraged from pursuing raiding without pursuing other aspects of the game as well.

    - The best rewards should involve multiple game activities - whether that's raiding, grouping, crafting, or questing.  To truly progress as far as possible with a character, players should have to participate in many different aspects of the game in some way.  That doesn't mean that raiding shouldn't be individually rewarding, but being well rounded as a player should be even more rewarding

    - Raiding should exist as a means to provide guilds with goals and achievements to strive for, something "special" and meaningful that the guild can come together and do as a guild.  However, there should be other types of guild content that fulfill this goal as well, so that guilds do not feel forced to raid.

    - Bottom line, there should be enough to raiding that it is meaningful and fulfilling to those who enjoy it, but not at the expense of the rest of the game either.  Players who choose not to raid (for whatever reason) should still have meaningful and fulfilling experiences in Pantheon.