Forums » The Druid

Druid = Indirect Healing

    • 18 posts
    April 14, 2018 7:23 PM PDT

    I am amazed to not yet find a thread here on Bazgrim's video where they talked about all of the classes.  Joppa mentioned that Clerics will be big single target heals.  Shaman's will be the masters of heal over time.  Druid healing will be "indirect heals."

    So what is everyone's speculation with this new information?  I can really see 3 possibilities. 

    1. Offensive healing.  There are several threads so I won't go into detail.

    2. summonable healing.  Maybe something in the nature of the "Goodberry" spell from DND.  Perhaps we will summon heal clickies for group mates.  I'm not a huge fan of this idea myself, but some group mates I've had in the past would love having a clicky ability to save themselves.  I'm just not sure there is enough depth to make this a healer class focus.

    3. Localized healing / regen.  Perhaps we summon a plant, or healing stream, and as long as companions are within xx meters of it, they gain life.  Supplement this with normal direct heals as well, and I could see this being beneficial.  This also plays into the thought process I've seen through around of Druids affecting limited local weather or climates.  Something like this could use the same system.

    So what do you guys think?  Are there other aspects of "indirect healing" you think may be the case?  Which are you hoping it is?

    • 483 posts
    April 15, 2018 6:04 AM PDT

    I don't like tree huggers much, but another form of "indirect" healing could maybe be damage shields.

    Also, when it comes to offensive heals, I think we could broaden the idea by including any sort of trigger for the heal to go off, like say a heal which only triggers when an enemy lands a hit on you, or a heal which only triggers after your damage shield goes down, etc. 

  • Wig
    • 167 posts
    April 15, 2018 6:51 AM PDT
    I’m already theorycrafting a druid/direlord heal/tank combo for max dps in a group. Add their dps with that of the rest of the group, you’ll be flying through dungeons.
    • 717 posts
    April 15, 2018 2:48 PM PDT

    Wig said: I’m already theorycrafting a druid/direlord heal/tank combo for max dps in a group. Add their dps with that of the rest of the group, you’ll be flying through dungeons.

     

    No you're not. You don't theorycraft, you just fantasize on possible concept of classes not yet revealed. No numbers, no theorycraft.

    No spells/skills and concrete mechanics, not even a way to predict anything.

    The direlord could be ambidextrous and deal as much damage as any other tank if it's the design they want, and what is sure is that the paladin will be stronger than other tanks against undeads, which can be a concrete prediction of "high dps setup". Even the warrior could bring group buffs in the form of shouts that will benefit more to the party than any "superior dps tank".

    The druid could heal trought reactive healing, throught channeling to a tree spirit which would then spread healing to the lowest party members. Hell, indirect healing doesn't mean "nuke healing" but can imply a lot of different spells, that might not even be the "main" healing method, and just some flavour addition to a traditionnal healer setup.

     

    Please don't fantasize too much when nothing is truly known about skills, numbers, and practicality.

  • Wig
    • 167 posts
    April 16, 2018 4:53 AM PDT
    Pump the brakes there, big guy
    • 142 posts
    April 16, 2018 9:24 AM PDT

    Well, from all the opinionated information out there...I have a feeling that druids will probably do healing based on dmg and have some enviromental healing abilities and eviromental dmg dealing. I think while clerics and shamans might be very good at a combination of mainly direct healing with decent group healing, shamans with hots all over the group and clerics with just the click and heal, druids might excel in more hyper aggressive groups where everyone is getting hit and they excel at more group healing and maybe area effect heals, kind of like in WoW the druid had tranquility which was a hot area heal, and direct dmg and healing while having decent direct heals. But we will never truly know until they are released and tested. 

    • 52 posts
    April 16, 2018 7:02 PM PDT

    I'm hoping for Fury / Warden from EQ2, in terms of what indirect healing meant. Those two classes, when properly specced, would indirectly heal the party as they DPS'd. Nature giveth as nature taketh away, after all.

    • 92 posts
    April 20, 2018 1:05 PM PDT

    Just a guess but I'll bet it's damage converts to a different color of mana and you then burn that mana to heal. Though I like some of the other things you mentioned. Anyway this would make druids Healer/Damage unlike the rest of the healers which are healer/support.

    Whatever they do I hope they don't attempt WoWs atonement healing priest. Those always ended up too powerful or trash. It's too hard to make it work right.


    This post was edited by zendrel at April 20, 2018 1:06 PM PDT
    • 3 posts
    April 23, 2018 3:59 PM PDT

    I really like the ideas of indirect healing that you guys have put out. If druid damage is viable, then we could seriously accelerate a group by saving mana for the main healer, or by being the main healer and having a group of 5 or 6 classes that do decent dps. I'm very interested in the upcoming class info reveals, however, much or little information we get.

    • 86 posts
    April 26, 2018 7:32 AM PDT

    Druids will temporarily transform an npcs melee damage into healing, so whoever they attack gets healed instead of damaged.. you heard it here first~

    • 202 posts
    April 26, 2018 11:43 AM PDT

    Taldaas said:

    So what is everyone's speculation with this new information?  I can really see 3 possibilities. 

    I think a 4th possibility that really feels like "indirect" healing is something like Bark Skin, where some percentage or amount of damage is absorbed by a shield.

    • 1790 posts
    April 26, 2018 4:08 PM PDT

    I'm hoping that it isn't mainly damage into healing focused, the balancing of that tends to be a nightmare if druid are indeed intended to have parity with cleric/shaman in terms of healing. I'd rather things sort of like the above; a bark skin shield that absorbs X% of the next y number of attacks, upon all charges being used heal the player for z. Or instead of thorns a line of damage shield having a shield of leeches that does damage to attackers and leeches health back to the buffed player. Balance of Nature situational heal that adds up the missing hp from the group then splits the damage equally among all members (absorb shields soaking as much damage as they can before applied). 

  • Wig
    • 167 posts
    April 27, 2018 7:58 AM PDT
    A mixture of nuke to healing, absorb shields to healing or reflect damage to healing would all make for interesting gameplay
    • 158 posts
    April 27, 2018 1:30 PM PDT

    My favorite style of healing in EQ2 was the inquisitor's reactive heals.  I would love to see that in this game, and since we know the SHM has HoTs and CLR has direct heals, I would guess if that style were implemented it would be by the DRU. 

    The dealing damage to heal party members was amazing in the games that I played with those mechanics.  I'm currently playing Neverwinter and the Paladin has a debuff they put on the enemy that heals allies that attack it for 15% of the damage they deal, and the paladin's aura heals all allies for 30% of what everyone else is healed for while also having a burst AoE heal from every third melee strike and a few other heals with cooldowns if needed, but when you have a group of people hitting for 2k plus per hit, the group pretty much heals themselves and the Paladin just has to spot heal the tank if damage gets spikey. 

    I could see a wither type of spell that saps the lifeforce from a target and allows the DRU to redirect it to another target.  The necro in EQ did a very selfish version of this, so why couldn't the DRU do it in a more spiritual/natural fashion.  This could have its limitations similar to how there were a few enemies that a necro couldn't siphon life from. 

    I also mentioned in another post the healing style in FFIX of one of the healers having a summoned faerie/sprite that did very minor DoT with its arrows and could use its poor AI to toss HoTs and small group heals or you could force it to  cast the heals on command (similar to controlling pets in other games).

    Whatever VR goes with I'll likely be happy as long as all of the healers are viable.  The classes I am most interested in are the DL, DRU, NEC and maybe PAL.  Depending on the mechanics and gameplay will determine which I will main and which will be my alt.

    • 717 posts
    April 27, 2018 4:07 PM PDT

    Darch said:

    My favorite style of healing in EQ2 was the inquisitor's reactive heals.  I would love to see that in this game, and since we know the SHM has HoTs and CLR has direct heals, I would guess if that style were implemented it would be by the DRU. 

    The dealing damage to heal party members was amazing in the games that I played with those mechanics.  I'm currently playing Neverwinter and the Paladin has a debuff they put on the enemy that heals allies that attack it for 15% of the damage they deal, and the paladin's aura heals all allies for 30% of what everyone else is healed for while also having a burst AoE heal from every third melee strike and a few other heals with cooldowns if needed, but when you have a group of people hitting for 2k plus per hit, the group pretty much heals themselves and the Paladin just has to spot heal the tank if damage gets spikey. 

    I could see a wither type of spell that saps the lifeforce from a target and allows the DRU to redirect it to another target.  The necro in EQ did a very selfish version of this, so why couldn't the DRU do it in a more spiritual/natural fashion.  This could have its limitations similar to how there were a few enemies that a necro couldn't siphon life from. 

    I also mentioned in another post the healing style in FFIX of one of the healers having a summoned faerie/sprite that did very minor DoT with its arrows and could use its poor AI to toss HoTs and small group heals or you could force it to  cast the heals on command (similar to controlling pets in other games).

    Whatever VR goes with I'll likely be happy as long as all of the healers are viable.  The classes I am most interested in are the DL, DRU, NEC and maybe PAL.  Depending on the mechanics and gameplay will determine which I will main and which will be my alt.

     

    I remember the indirect healing line of clerics and inquisitors, and also the other variants :

    Shamans/Defilers had a rune style spell, raw absorption.

    Warden/Fury had a hot, ticking every few seconds.

     

    This resulted something a bit weird with their own tank design :

    -Mitigation tanks (Guardian, berserker, paladin and SK) had an edge with every type of healers,  due to the softened damage they took on every hit.

    -Avoidance tanks (Monk/bruisers) had little edge with healers specialized in HoT or Reactive healing because their damage was uncertain and unstable, resulting in few and insignifiant reactive healing spells and much overheal on HoTs, but they were good with Shamans and defilers due to the ward protecting them of spikey damage.

     

    However, avoidance tanks were a big big failure and they were extremely undesired in raid environnement until they had their epic weapon which passive effect increased either Armor or damage reduction (depending if monk or bruiser), resulting in a less "avoidance tank" design and a more "mitigation tank".

     

    Well, that was a big parenthesis, as it seems no tank in pantheon is avoidance based. Reactive healings ? Yeah good !

    • 27 posts
    May 16, 2018 10:44 AM PDT

    Adding to the list of theoretical sources of healing from other games:

    FFXIV: Scholar healing was done primarily through summoning a faerie that automagically heals allies. You provided medium direct healing, snap-heals, and HoT, while the pet provided most of the focused healing on your behalf.

    WOW: Discipline priests had bubbles and heal-then-dot spells.

    EQ1 clerics: Clerics had death pact which triggered a big heal after you fell below a certain amount of health.

    EQ1 druids: Aura of life (strong regen to allies nearby)

    Vanguard Shaman: Shaman had Life Ward. Ward takes damage instead of ally and heals ally as it takes damage.

    Vanguard Druids: Summoned food that could heal when eaten. Had the concept of Wonders/Calamities. One of the wonders was a massive group-heal. You built up wonder points by doing other druid abilities. (indirect because no direct mana->hps restored)

    GW2 necro: Summon a well that heals in an area around it.

    Not an exhaustive list by any stretch, but I could see these concepts used to create a fun passive healer.

    Conjure a sylvan spirit that passively heals your defensive target for a short time (non-permanent non-controllable pet). Have a spell line to direct heal the spirit or reduce its threat.

    Summon a sylvan spring that bubbles up from the ground healing all allies that stand in it.

    Summon "barkskin" on allies that absorbs all or a percentage of damage and provides a burst heal when it drops off (maybe a "thorn skin" for tanks that costs more but adds a damage shield).

    Hierophant stance. while active, damage from spells is reduced but radiate a passive healing aura that builds strength as you cast non-healing spells (like vanguard DK dread countenance). Dump the built up power to cast an instant large group heal (panic button).

    • 36 posts
    May 16, 2018 7:16 PM PDT

    I would hope that they don't go with some sort of damage to heal system because it would be completely broken given their assertion that all healers will be able to heal ~the same.  Anyone with a lick of critical thinking ability knows that doing the same amount of healing in the same time (required by the able to heal the same paradigm) while also doing damage is far more powerful than the poor direct healer who just does healing.

    • 110 posts
    May 20, 2018 10:20 AM PDT

    Zyellinia said:

    I would hope that they don't go with some sort of damage to heal system because it would be completely broken given their assertion that all healers will be able to heal ~the same.  Anyone with a lick of critical thinking ability knows that doing the same amount of healing in the same time (required by the able to heal the same paradigm) while also doing damage is far more powerful than the poor direct healer who just does healing.

    I don't think they've ever said that all healers will heal the same.

    What they have said is that all healers will be viable for healing all content and that all healers will be desireable in groups. This is important to many of us because towards the mid game in EQ players stopped looking for druids and shamans and started to primarly want clerics because clerics had the best heals to keep things from going south and the best resurrect for when things did go south.

    • 410 posts
    May 20, 2018 5:05 PM PDT

    Good ideas here. I was hoping for more information during the interview too. Maybe they are still working on fleshing out some of the classes. I can wait for more info though.

    Although, say, the Cleric has dibbs on the most effecient and/or powerful single target heals than the other two healer classes, I doubt that means that the Shaman and Druid will not have a single target heal to some lesser degree. Likewise, all healers may have HoTs but it seems the Shaman may have lead there.

    So the Druid has indirect heals and this can take several forms including the class specific environmental abilities that appear to minimize damage taken to some degree. I think I like the idea of damage conversion to heal (either a direct effect from the Druids damage or as a group buff to heal party members when they do damage), absorb shields, reflect, reflect to heal. I can't believe the Druid will not have some Hot and/or single target ability as well to fill out their repetoire. I don't expect those heal types will be comparable to the other two healers however. But I know I wouldn't be too thrilled with clicky type heals. 

    One of my questions concerns AoE healing and how each class will approach this. Looking forward to hearing more information in the future.

     

     

    • 27 posts
    May 22, 2018 5:23 PM PDT

    So I'm probably going a little too deep down the rabbit hole on this one, but I know they mentioned druids would be able to control the weather. So I'm wondering if they are going to do anything with weather related spells. Chloroplast spell line that get benefits if casted in sunlight, Roots/Vines that get benefits while underground, Water spells that get benefits if it's raining or the player or caster is underwater.

    Also based on the spell description for ranger's "Beckon Vale Hawks: You beckon a pair of Vale Hawks to lift and carry you to target location." It sounds like we might be able to select a location on the ground to place a spell. With that assumption I can see the opportunity to place either healing springs or fungal groves that heal targets inside it's perimeter.

    I am also very for druids having strong regen spells. Not anything towards HoT where it actually says "%T has healed you for 100hp" four or five times, but more like if your natural regen is 5hp a tick a spell could add an extra 10 or 20hp a tick. Fungus Covered Scaled Tunics on roids.

     

    • 3492 posts
    May 23, 2018 3:42 AM PDT

    Sato said:

    Also based on the spell description for ranger's "Beckon Vale Hawks: You beckon a pair of Vale Hawks to lift and carry you to target location." It sounds like we might be able to select a location on the ground to place a spell. With that assumption I can see the opportunity to place either healing springs or fungal groves that heal targets inside it's perimeter.

    It is true that you'll be able to select an area on the ground as the target of a spell. From the FAQ:

    "13.0 How will targeting work?

    There will be both offensive and defensive targets. Beneficial spells and abilities will be directed toward your defensive target, while harmful spells and abilities will be directed at your offensive target. Some spells and abilities, primarily area-of-effect spells, will involve targeting the ground or area around your foes."

    When Joppa said "indirect healing" my first thought was indeed some sort of magic tree that is placed on the ground and doesn't move, and anyone within a certain radius of it is affected by a HoT effect. I think that would be cool.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at May 23, 2018 3:42 AM PDT
    • 265 posts
    May 23, 2018 4:51 PM PDT

    I immediately thought of bear shamans in Age of Conan. Melee attacks cause group heals to trigger and they also had regens.  Coupled with shapeshifting maybe you cast your reactive heal buff, swap to rogue cat form land a string a hits that heal your group, you pop out, drop a healing spring, maybe an AoE healing berry, then back to rogue form to heal as you hit/ crit. 

    • 410 posts
    May 24, 2018 9:59 AM PDT

    Larr said:

    I immediately thought of bear shamans in Age of Conan. Melee attacks cause group heals to trigger and they also had regens.  Coupled with shapeshifting maybe you cast your reactive heal buff, swap to rogue cat form land a string a hits that heal your group, you pop out, drop a healing spring, maybe an AoE healing berry, then back to rogue form to heal as you hit/ crit. 

    This sounds similar to the WoW Druid. I'm hoping the Druids in Pantheon are nothing like that personally. But TBH, I would really enjoy shape-shifting if that's going to be a thing in Pantheon. If so, my query would be if certain forms of shapeshifting actively determined specific spells and/or abilities. More and more curious as we go...

    • 53 posts
    May 26, 2018 12:20 PM PDT

    I'm surprised nobody has mentioned Rift's Chloromancer druid or Vanguard's Disciple in this thread yet.

    If you're unfamiliar with either, they both were dps/heals of different varieties, chloro ranged, disciple like a healer monk.

    Chloromancers perfomed raid healing through applying a temporary spore debuff on main targets, ground target springs, channeling or selecting other spells for single target, mobile, or AoE heals (all required a damage target), and buffing main tank targets to increase the amount of damage-healing one person received. *Note: I haven't played that one since Rift's first year.

    Disciples were a VG favorite, basically a healer monk and the most popular OP solo class. I thought the melee dps/healer was novel. They had stances that decided their output, reactives, finishers, and a custom resource pool. They weren't super if forced into range, just like any melee class. They looked like monks, had lightweight FD, but also felt a little like rogues with how their reactives and resources worked. And they could heal, single target burst or AoE. Fun hybrid class.

    I have no idea what Pantheon's druid will aim for, but there are many well-executed examples of indirect healers. Maybe we'll see a shapeshifted tree-bear with roots for claws that cause rampant growth melee heals. Maybe we'll see a force of nature that uses natural elements to stun and shield, ground-target AoEs and growth-based HoTs. Maybe we'll see a weird turret healer that roots themself to the ground as a tree, debuffs mobs around its roots while acting as a healing spring with AoE-lifetap abilities only when in place - keepin' groupmates shady. As OakKnower said, curious! Don't know, and I can't wait to find out.

    Best luck to the devs in figuring out Pantheon's perfect druid!

    • 56 posts
    June 4, 2018 7:44 AM PDT

    If it's damage to heals then I hope Bloodmage from Vanguard is inspiration, Chloromance from Rift was pretty good too.

    Course, it may just be Ward based rather than heals, that has been a frequent heal style in games.