Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

About that Grind

    • 44 posts
    April 12, 2018 7:22 PM PDT

    Hello All,

     

    I just wanted to take a moment to say that I do think the level grind is important in this game. It was during these grinding for experience groups that real friendships were formed. Levels should take work to get to and I really dont think one should be able to max out in level in a short amount of time, perhaps not even a years time. I think current MMOs play through too quick in terms of levels and the zones you are in. There should be some mechanic that makes going back to all "beginner zones" etc important. I see how poorly player traffic is dealt with in other MMOs as far as all the players hanging out only in one area, or the end game areas. I also wish to avoid every guild rushing to be first to do this or that, and while its fine to compete, that just seems to age the game faster. Well, thats my thoughts on what I like.

     

    Christopher Ament

    aka Chaos, Chryos, Kirvahl (names Im known to go by in MMOs)

    • 3852 posts
    April 13, 2018 8:40 AM PDT

    Hello.

    I think pretty much all of us agree on the basic concept that levels should come slowly and gaining a level should give a feeling of accompishment. Yesterday in LOTRO I was listening to people yelling "ding 53" and the like and thinking "what kind of moron takes one level seriously in a game with 115 levels where if you scratch your arse the right way you level-up". I don't want to feel that way in Pantheon.

    You use the term "grind" which is generally taken as killing mobs for very little experience per kill and doing it for long periods of time. I think the great majority of us agree here too - Pantheon needs a lot more grind than the typical current MMO. There will be real disagreement as to what percentage of a level (at least after the early stages) should come from grinding and what percentage if any should be gettable by quests, exploration, harvesting, crafting and the like. 

    I personally would prefer a decent percentage of a level to come from things other than grinding, but I am 100% in agreement that levels should come slowly and things like quest experience should supplement killing mobs not be the major factor.

    • 793 posts
    April 13, 2018 8:52 AM PDT

    IMO...Quests should not be a source advancement, they should be more about the lore, the item rewards and the initiative to promote adventuring to new regions.

    XP, should come from kills, and xp in the quest should come from the killing you have to partake in to complete the quest. Quest xp, should never be more than a couple level equivelant kills.

     

     

    • 2886 posts
    April 13, 2018 9:40 AM PDT

    This has been an important aspect of development since the beginning. The first two things that come to mind are the Progeny system which encourages a return to low level content. But more importantly, zones will be huge and will have a wide range of level content in a single zone. Avendyr's Pass is the first example of this that comes to mind. It could have some camps that are suitable for level 10s, and in a different part of the zone have camps that are suitable for level 40s (just roughly estimating). The point is twofold: 

    1. You will have to always be watching your back as a lower level character in these areas. You wouldn't want to accidentally stumble upon one of these higher level pockets.

    2. Higher level characters will often be mingling with lower level characters because there is content suitable for both within a particular area. This creates vertical social interdependency by allowing higher level characters to buff and help the lower levels. Conversely, the lower level characters are inspired by the higher level characters and are motivated to strive to become that.

    • 999 posts
    April 13, 2018 9:53 AM PDT

    @Chyros

    Agreed - and we're in good hands.  I think some unnecessary tedium will be removed from first generation MMOs, but the developers are fully aware of the importance of time investment for leveling.  Here's a quote from Brad (Aradune) over a year ago now from an AMA on Reddit regarding Pantheon and the grind:

    Q: Evenem

    "Hi, having read your answer on "endgame", how do you plan to keep player interested to play for a long time, as the game won't be as "hardcore" as Everquest grind was. As you said nowadays players have less time to play, shorter session and less time, still they want to play for a long time. I think that's one are where games like GW2 or Wildstar failed to find a good middleground (no progression in GW2 past a certain point, "too hardcore" for wildstar)."

    A: AraduneMithara

    "There's no easy answer here. Keeping players interested and playing a long time, whether in one session or spread out over days, involves creating compelling gameplay. Player rewards and leveling and earning new abilities and acquiring more powerful items at a reasonable rate is one way to make your game sticky. Add in that grouping with others will be encouraged and rewarded and that people will be making new friends in-game and you have a situation where your friends need you to log in with them or order advance -- and most people who want to be part of a team, a team player, respond well to this pressure. As for Pantheon not being as hard core as EQ, I don't think I said that. I said it wouldn't be as grindy, and the type of grind I was referring to involved tedious repetition. But that doesn't mean Pantheon won't be difficult, or involved, or require time invested in order to advance -- in fact, virtually all MUDs and MMOs are built around time invested as the primary advancement mechanism."

    Link to full AMA here: Brad McQuaid (Aradune) Pantheon AMA

    • 613 posts
    April 13, 2018 2:20 PM PDT

    Chryos said:

    Hello All,

     

    I just wanted to take a moment to say that I do think the level grind is important in this game. It was during these grinding for experience groups that real friendships were formed. Levels should take work to get to and I really dont think one should be able to max out in level in a short amount of time, perhaps not even a years time. I think current MMOs play through too quick in terms of levels and the zones you are in. There should be some mechanic that makes going back to all "beginner zones" etc important. I see how poorly player traffic is dealt with in other MMOs as far as all the players hanging out only in one area, or the end game areas. I also wish to avoid every guild rushing to be first to do this or that, and while its fine to compete, that just seems to age the game faster. Well, thats my thoughts on what I like.

     

    Christopher Ament

    aka Chaos, Chryos, Kirvahl (names Im known to go by in MMOs)

    Well I know I like challenge of leveling.  Progression in the games these days is how do I get to “X” level in a micro second.  Then there is the flip side with the grind from Hades and has no other redeeming factor other than that of being called a grind.  My hope with Pantheon is that length of time is steeped meaningful quests and scope of the game.  Max level is not really in my mind but have a great time.  There was a tension back in the day and it was glorious to go on epic quests and raids.  Just finishing them was an accomplishment.  I miss that. 

    Now back to the OP’s comments… yes time is a much needed factor but it needs to have depth and meaning.  I think VR has that one covered. 

    ....and welcome to the forums...8)

     

    Ox

    • 3237 posts
    April 13, 2018 2:33 PM PDT

    XP Chains are the best thing that ever happened to grinding in an MMO.  Really sad that FFXI was the only game to pull them off.  FFXIV tried to reproduce them but failed with the implementation.

    • 613 posts
    April 13, 2018 2:53 PM PDT

    oneADseven said:

    XP Chains are the best thing that ever happened to grinding in an MMO.  Really sad that FFXI was the only game to pull them off.  FFXIV tried to reproduce them but failed with the implementation.

    Never played FF but our guild has a few that do.  They also noted that was a great feature of that saga.  I do find it funny and sad that when you have something that works and “upgrade” it and it breaks everything.  My hope is the VR team has a solid plan for this. 

     

    Ox

     

    • 4 posts
    April 13, 2018 3:06 PM PDT
    Hey all!

    I think the grind is less important... If you're able to accomplish something meaningful at any level then it really does become more of a journey than a race imo.

    That said, I think a middle ground between easymode leveling and korean-style grind-for-the-rest-of-your-life then grind for gear and do it all over again would be pretty reasonable.
    • 1618 posts
    April 13, 2018 8:45 PM PDT

    Fulton said:

    IMO...Quests should not be a source advancement, they should be more about the lore, the item rewards and the initiative to promote adventuring to new regions.

    XP, should come from kills, and xp in the quest should come from the killing you have to partake in to complete the quest. Quest xp, should never be more than a couple level equivelant kills.

    I don’t see why they can’t be equivalent methods of leveling. Why must all XP come from killing. Are we nothing but Murder Hobos? Exploring and questing are just as valid in learning the world and your abilities than slaying the 1,000th Gnome. Although, I do love a good Gnome slaughter.

    • 763 posts
    April 14, 2018 1:01 AM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    (snippy) Exploring and questing are just as valid in learning the world and your abilities than slaying the 1,000th Gnome. Although, I do love a good Gnome slaughter.

    I felt duty bound to respond to this post thread.

    If i recall aright, there was mention that Crafting and Adventuring levels might be different branches entirely
    ... thus, while crafting more powerful items may need a few hundred Gnome scalps mob hides, there is no need for you to be the one to slaughter them (though it doesn't mean you cannot enjoy watching the sport)!

    It would be nice if there was some form of accomplishment system, a little like the LotRO achievements ... perhaps a 'Refuse Collector' badge for handing in 100 Gnome rat heads to the ThroneFast Sanitation Department? These forms of accolade need only be 'fluff' with, perhaps, some faction benefits, some trivial exp, and a 5% discount on all Wellington Boots bought within the City precints! They will, however, add to the horizontal progression possible ... giving more options that just 'race to the top'.

    Would you not want to be able to craft the Epic "Gnomeslayer Sword" ? Just get high enough Skar faction, provide the blood and bones of 1000 Gnomes and learn the art of creating 'shrunken heads' so you can add a 'gilded shrunken Royal Gnome head' to the sword as a pommel! Sign me up for sure!

    Evoras, enjoys trying some of the more obscure crafting recipes!

    • 1479 posts
    April 14, 2018 1:45 AM PDT

    Beefcake said:

     

    I don’t see why they can’t be equivalent methods of leveling. Why must all XP come from killing. Are we nothing but Murder Hobos? Exploring and questing are just as valid in learning the world and your abilities than slaying the 1,000th Gnome. Although, I do love a good Gnome slaughter.

     

    Not to be the devil's advocate, but levelling entirely implies getting better at fighting, and the only way to do it is by actually fighting. While exploration and travelling are fine, they don't make you better in battle unless you actually fight your way.

    I know it's a very controversial aspect, but is closer to "logic".

    • 793 posts
    April 14, 2018 5:04 AM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    Fulton said:

    IMO...Quests should not be a source advancement, they should be more about the lore, the item rewards and the initiative to promote adventuring to new regions.

    XP, should come from kills, and xp in the quest should come from the killing you have to partake in to complete the quest. Quest xp, should never be more than a couple level equivelant kills.

    I don’t see why they can’t be equivalent methods of leveling. Why must all XP come from killing. Are we nothing but Murder Hobos? Exploring and questing are just as valid in learning the world and your abilities than slaying the 1,000th Gnome. Although, I do love a good Gnome slaughter.

     

    In my experiences, where questing paid as much xp as killing, questing became the way to level, since often you not only earn xp from the quest but you earn xp while killing, tasking for the quest. Ultimately it becomes a compounded way to gain xp. This leads to questing being the primary way to advance quickly/quicker. Which in turn has always lead to the "quest to quest to quest" mentality.

    Maybe if they can figure out how long it should take the average person to complete a certain quest, and an xp reward could be equal to the time one could acheive that same xp killing, minus the xp gained while completing the request (mobs necessarily slain to acquire quest goals), then that's fine.

    Hope I explained that well enough to correctly express my opinion. :P

     


    This post was edited by Fulton at April 14, 2018 5:05 AM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    April 14, 2018 7:40 AM PDT

    Quite clear Fulton, and I agree.

    Just killing gets old fast - IMO it is a lot more fun to have a *reason* for the killing. The quest that gives you the reason  doesn't have to give enormous experience but it is nice to have reasons. That way you aren't a homicidal maniac you are serving a cause. Same reason I prefer faction-based pvp as in DAOC to free-for-all.

    To those people concerned that we could just quest to level-cap and never explore other than by going where quests send us - from what VR says there won't be nearly enough quests. I am not arguing in favor of a quest-based game I am arguing in favor of a quest *flavored* game.

    • 3016 posts
    April 14, 2018 7:56 AM PDT

    If you don't want to quest to quest to quest...spread it out,  have different interests,  group from time to time.   There are other skills that will be part of Pantheon,  such as Perception.   I am still hoping for Diplomacy,  ala Vanguard,  but haven't heard anything about that at all. 

     Perhaps collecting things too...language books, books that increase a skill,  I have fond memories of EQII where I could collect books for a library,  music boxes that played original theme music for EQ.    Hoping the Devs put in Easter eggs, which are always fun to find,   easter eggs that relate to things in the real world that jog people's memories,  or easter eggs that have something to do with Pantheon lore.     Just things that encourage you to do other things (oh and crafting too, group efforts to build boats, houses for people,  also ala Vanguard)  other than kill, kill, kill.   And then there's Exploration. :)  (and quit pickin' on Gnomies!!  *sticks tongue out at you*)

     

    Cana

     


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at April 14, 2018 7:59 AM PDT
    • 44 posts
    April 14, 2018 9:11 AM PDT

    Thank you guys for the responses! I feel much better knowing I am not alone and I agree that just grinding away till your eyes bleed is not that great either, so I do consider other arguments too. Ijust know that you really start to learn about people when you do have those long grinding sessions. Plus, it would be nice to not have to feel like everyone is in a race to get to lvl 50 or to kill the first end game boss etc... but thats just me on that part. 

    • 139 posts
    April 14, 2018 9:54 AM PDT

    I'll just add it's important content opens up through grind as levels are linked to content. If theres not enough barriers and bottle necks the grind for levels feels meaningless. Levels and Content feel less meaningful if there's no grind.

    • 3016 posts
    April 14, 2018 10:31 AM PDT

    Doford said:

    I'll just add it's important content opens up through grind as levels are linked to content. If theres not enough barriers and bottle necks the grind for levels feels meaningless. Levels and Content feel less meaningful if there's no grind.

     

    Games don't grind,  people do. :)  And it feels less of a grind when you are doing something that motivates you to continue...that good ol' hook to keep playing. :) I like to personally motivate myself..set goals, achieve titles.  Become allied with say...a Dragon faction.   I did this in EQ...in Skyshrine.   While my guild was busy raiding them,  I was killing Kael giants to gain that particular faction with the Dragons in Skyshrine,  there was a kill quest for (crystal?) spiders in that castle,  killed those too.  At the end of it all ..I could use the banker and vendors in that castle, explore to my heart's content from top to bottom solo without ever worrying about dying. :)   Also learned dragon language. 

     

    Cana


    This post was edited by CanadinaXegony at April 14, 2018 10:38 AM PDT
    • 139 posts
    April 14, 2018 11:02 AM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Doford said:

    I'll just add it's important content opens up through grind as levels are linked to content. If theres not enough barriers and bottle necks the grind for levels feels meaningless. Levels and Content feel less meaningful if there's no grind.

     

    Games don't grind,  people do. :)  And it feels less of a grind when you are doing something that motivates you to continue...that good ol' hook to keep playing. :) I like to personally motivate myself..set goals, achieve titles.  Become allied with say...a Dragon faction.   I did this in EQ...in Skyshrine.   While my guild was busy raiding them,  I was killing Kael giants to gain that particular faction with the Dragons in Skyshrine,  there was a kill quest for (crystal?) spiders in that castle,  killed those too.  At the end of it all ..I could use the banker and vendors in that castle, explore to my heart's content from top to bottom solo without ever worrying about dying. :)   Also learned dragon language. 

     

    Cana

    That's what a hook should be, gameplay that creates a story, with non of that boring dialog or ticking off pre programmed objectives.

    • 793 posts
    April 14, 2018 11:05 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    Quite clear Fulton, and I agree.

    Just killing gets old fast - IMO it is a lot more fun to have a *reason* for the killing. The quest that gives you the reason  doesn't have to give enormous experience but it is nice to have reasons. That way you aren't a homicidal maniac you are serving a cause. Same reason I prefer faction-based pvp as in DAOC to free-for-all.

    To those people concerned that we could just quest to level-cap and never explore other than by going where quests send us - from what VR says there won't be nearly enough quests. I am not arguing in favor of a quest-based game I am arguing in favor of a quest *flavored* game.

     

    I agree that killing gets old fast, and alternate ways of gaining xp are fine. My main concern, which as you stated that VR has said won't be possible, is that in many recent games, questing WAS the primary source of xp. It would take you hours of killing to acquire the same xp you got from a 20 minute quest in some games.

    I also think quests as we have known them should be broken into quests and tasks. Tasks are things that NPCs ask you to do for them, they give you a reason to kill, and might earn you some coin or faction or a small token item. Quests, IMHO, should be more like treasure hunting. You have to solve some of the unknowns, explore to find some of the mobs or locations, and many quests should be multi-faceted in that they are not as simple as run out kill 5 orcs, and return, THAT is a task. To reference EQ, quests are like the Epic weapon quests, the class armor quests, or anything like that. Tasks are the Like orc scalp turn ins. 

    I want quests to mean something, to BE the adventure, to entice you to explore that cave or traverse that dangerous forest. And to add to that, I would love to see that a quest giver can give the quest to 2 people, and they may have several different requirements for each person, either randomly or based on race /class.

     

     

    • 3016 posts
    April 14, 2018 12:09 PM PDT

    Fulton said:

    dorotea said:

    Quite clear Fulton, and I agree.

    Just killing gets old fast - IMO it is a lot more fun to have a *reason* for the killing. The quest that gives you the reason  doesn't have to give enormous experience but it is nice to have reasons. That way you aren't a homicidal maniac you are serving a cause. Same reason I prefer faction-based pvp as in DAOC to free-for-all.

    To those people concerned that we could just quest to level-cap and never explore other than by going where quests send us - from what VR says there won't be nearly enough quests. I am not arguing in favor of a quest-based game I am arguing in favor of a quest *flavored* game.

     

    I agree that killing gets old fast, and alternate ways of gaining xp are fine. My main concern, which as you stated that VR has said won't be possible, is that in many recent games, questing WAS the primary source of xp. It would take you hours of killing to acquire the same xp you got from a 20 minute quest in some games.

    I also think quests as we have known them should be broken into quests and tasks. Tasks are things that NPCs ask you to do for them, they give you a reason to kill, and might earn you some coin or faction or a small token item. Quests, IMHO, should be more like treasure hunting. You have to solve some of the unknowns, explore to find some of the mobs or locations, and many quests should be multi-faceted in that they are not as simple as run out kill 5 orcs, and return, THAT is a task. To reference EQ, quests are like the Epic weapon quests, the class armor quests, or anything like that. Tasks are the Like orc scalp turn ins. 

    I want quests to mean something, to BE the adventure, to entice you to explore that cave or traverse that dangerous forest. And to add to that, I would love to see that a quest giver can give the quest to 2 people, and they may have several different requirements for each person, either randomly or based on race /class.

     

     

    Yup tasks that address faction.   Like my prior post.   A task that sends you on an adventure to help that village you would like to hang out in,  shop at the vendors..or something similar.  In regard to two people gaining the same quest...so shareable?  I've played games where quests were shareable..even if you weren't at the quest giver on the same day ..don't remember the games off the top of my head, but I am sure this could be a "thing",  if that's the way the Devs want to go.

    • 1618 posts
    April 14, 2018 12:24 PM PDT

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Beefcake said:

    I don’t see why they can’t be equivalent methods of leveling. Why must all XP come from killing. Are we nothing but Murder Hobos? Exploring and questing are just as valid in learning the world and your abilities than slaying the 1,000th Gnome. Although, I do love a good Gnome slaughter.

     

    Not to be the devil's advocate, but levelling entirely implies getting better at fighting, and the only way to do it is by actually fighting. While exploration and travelling are fine, they don't make you better in battle unless you actually fight your way.

    I know it's a very controversial aspect, but is closer to "logic".

    There is a lot more to leveling than just fighting. There is a lot more to fighting than just weapons skills. That’s why most successful officers study philosophy and other subjects. They need to understand people in order to help them or defeat them. You have to know the land and how to use it to your advantage. You have to know the people and their needs.

    Questing and exploration help make a fighter more than just a fighter. Same with arcane and religious casters.

    There is no logic to an argument that claims that only fighting increases your experience or abilities.

    • 1618 posts
    April 14, 2018 12:28 PM PDT

    Before SOE changed it, in EQ2, questing gave XP & AA bonuses, where fighting gave strictly XP.

    I would like to see a couple paths, where combat gave you combat experience and questing gave you other bonuses, to help you specialize or gain something else.

    But clearly, just fighting for the sake of fighting gets dull quickly. 

    • 793 posts
    April 14, 2018 12:51 PM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Fulton said:

    dorotea said:

    Quite clear Fulton, and I agree.

    Just killing gets old fast - IMO it is a lot more fun to have a *reason* for the killing. The quest that gives you the reason  doesn't have to give enormous experience but it is nice to have reasons. That way you aren't a homicidal maniac you are serving a cause. Same reason I prefer faction-based pvp as in DAOC to free-for-all.

    To those people concerned that we could just quest to level-cap and never explore other than by going where quests send us - from what VR says there won't be nearly enough quests. I am not arguing in favor of a quest-based game I am arguing in favor of a quest *flavored* game.

     I agree that killing gets old fast, and alternate ways of gaining xp are fine. My main concern, which as you stated that VR has said won't be possible, is that in many recent games, questing WAS the primary source of xp. It would take you hours of killing to acquire the same xp you got from a 20 minute quest in some games.

    I also think quests as we have known them should be broken into quests and tasks. Tasks are things that NPCs ask you to do for them, they give you a reason to kill, and might earn you some coin or faction or a small token item. Quests, IMHO, should be more like treasure hunting. You have to solve some of the unknowns, explore to find some of the mobs or locations, and many quests should be multi-faceted in that they are not as simple as run out kill 5 orcs, and return, THAT is a task. To reference EQ, quests are like the Epic weapon quests, the class armor quests, or anything like that. Tasks are the Like orc scalp turn ins. 

    I want quests to mean something, to BE the adventure, to entice you to explore that cave or traverse that dangerous forest. And to add to that, I would love to see that a quest giver can give the quest to 2 people, and they may have several different requirements for each person, either randomly or based on race /class.

     

     

    Yup tasks that address faction.   Like my prior post.   A task that sends you on an adventure to help that village you would like to hang out in,  shop at the vendors..or something similar.  In regard to two people gaining the same quest...so shareable?  I've played games where quests were shareable..even if you weren't at the quest giver on the same day ..don't remember the games off the top of my head, but I am sure this could be a "thing",  if that's the way the Devs want to go.

     

    I didn't mean shareable, I meant more like 2 people can get the same quest from the same NPC, but both would have different objectives to accomplish the quest. Some people may not like that, and I'm not saying all the steps of the quest should be unique, but if the same quest had a bit of variety for each player, that adds a little more exploration and adventuring into the mix.

     

     

    • 1479 posts
    April 14, 2018 1:05 PM PDT

    Beefcake said:

    MauvaisOeil said:

    Beefcake said:

    I don’t see why they can’t be equivalent methods of leveling. Why must all XP come from killing. Are we nothing but Murder Hobos? Exploring and questing are just as valid in learning the world and your abilities than slaying the 1,000th Gnome. Although, I do love a good Gnome slaughter.

     

    Not to be the devil's advocate, but levelling entirely implies getting better at fighting, and the only way to do it is by actually fighting. While exploration and travelling are fine, they don't make you better in battle unless you actually fight your way.

    I know it's a very controversial aspect, but is closer to "logic".

    There is a lot more to leveling than just fighting. There is a lot more to fighting than just weapons skills. That’s why most successful officers study philosophy and other subjects. They need to understand people in order to help them or defeat them. You have to know the land and how to use it to your advantage. You have to know the people and their needs.

    Questing and exploration help make a fighter more than just a fighter. Same with arcane and religious casters.

    There is no logic to an argument that claims that only fighting increases your experience or abilities.

     

    Not really no. That really depends of what benefits levelling, and clearly even if you read a lot of books and studies, you won't be as good as a man that fought with a sword simply because you never experienced.

    Experience means... experience. And travelling or lore could give different bonuses in different skillup lines than plain levels (travelling speed, underground sight/speed, damage bonuses, etc...).