Tralyan said:Agreeing with no animation. You knew you had a good player when they knew the timers of their mezzes and roots, and that mob stayed on forever lockdown. I like that you were able to diferentiate between those players, and the ones that waited for the mezzed mob to start whacking on people before re-mezzing. It really set the best apart.
I felt the same way about people who buffed. I had a shaman who NEVER EVER let buffs drop, and would always recast in the last minute.
Thats when i first learned about casting the buff on yourself first, so you know when its fading on everyone else!
Tralyan said:Agreeing with no animation. You knew you had a good player when they knew the timers of their mezzes and roots, and that mob stayed on forever lockdown. I like that you were able to diferentiate between those players, and the ones that waited for the mezzed mob to start whacking on people before re-mezzing. It really set the best apart.
No animation here. It gives a bit if uncertainty and a higher learning curve for players. IMO would be much more rewarding.
How would this be animated for all types of monsters though?
Certainly it's easy to think of humanoid creatures which rub their heads or start 'shaking off' the visions and coming to their senses.
But what about animals, like wolves, bears, lions, rats, eagles or any other wild creature?
What about monsters like pegasi, hydras, dragons, wyrms, manticores and other magical creatures?
Not to mention elemental and summoned creatures like flame elementals, whirlwind dervishes, swarms of insects or bees and so forth.
If having an animation as an indicator for humanoid races is implemented then there needs to also be a way to carry that over to other creatures as well to keep it consistent.
Sidenote: In Everquest you can see how long a mez lasts by mousing over the mez-spell effect in the creatures buff/debuff window. The mez icon also starts blinking when there is only 15 seconds left before it wears off. So in a sense you have a visual cue in Everquest for when things are going to start breaking. You just tab-target your way through quickly to see if any mez is flashing and then re-apply that one.
I'm firmly in the camp for a visual cue.
Let's be realistic about this, if there are no in game ways to tell when CC or debuffs are fading then people will simply use third party timers and/or log parsers to allert them when something falls. Having a visual cue also rewards the other players for paying attention to their environment. You can't (or at least shouldn't) expect a warrior or cleric to have the mez times memorized or to have a parser set up to alert them before a mez breaks, but with visual cues they get a chance to notice and reposition in case the enchanter is off his game or OoM.
Besides, can you really say that having downloaded a log parser "separates the good from the bad?"
eldrun said:I can’t think of many players that use log parsers that are actually good at their class. Then again that’s more of a broad stroke of grouping players together.
I feel like if you truly know what your doing you can estimate pretty well when things will/are about to fade.
While I cannot discount your experience, mine is exactly the opposite. I have several friends who are and were the "good" enchanters, shamen, and wizards whose roots and mezzes never failed. They all had the same secret when I asked how they kept 99% uptime without sacrificing mana efficiency: log parsers.
And while I agree that the more you play, the more you'll come to understand your class and how long CC will last, it is beyond the scope of human ability to independently track a CC effect on 5 different mobs when hidden partial resists and slightly randomized timers are things to factor in without using tools of some sort.
I'm not disparaging those people who used tools to help them be better players. They saw a use for a tool that allowed them to perform more efficiently and used it. The tools didn't cast the spells or make the judgement calls on which mobs to charm and which to mez for them, the tools simply estimated for the players how much time they had left to make those calls and perform those actions.
In my opinion adding some visual cues for certain effects ending is another way for a player to prove mastery of his class without needing to use a third party program to approach maximum efficiency. Furthermore, with many different animations tied to several different CC effects we give the players a more immersive expirence as they get to watch the mobs pull their feet free from ice, rub the magical sleep from their eyes, and recoil in shock at the sight of having been forced to kill their friends. These animations could be different for different types of mobs, and more or less exaggerated depending on level, giving players a range of tells to learn and memorize to perform to their maximum efficiency.
eldrun said:I can’t think of many players that use log parsers that are actually good at their class. Then again that’s more of a broad stroke of grouping players together.
I feel like if you truly know what your doing you can estimate pretty well when things will/are about to fade.
This is one of the more comical replies I've seen. And I don't mean any disrespect to you, it's clearly just a matter of never using one most likely. If you're a good player, and you use a parser. You will be better. Humans can estimate things all they want. But computers are better. as much as people hate addons and such, they make you better. There is no question about it.
For example. Your human estimations dont a count for half ticks short ticks etc. Theres a 6 second window that is going to change how long your mezz actually lasts, that you cant just estimate, the parser can. Your friend who were amazing at the game and their classes. Would be better if they used a parser.
Some type of visual indicator that the CC was going to break or text in combat log would be nice, it doesn't need to be a big thing, just a small hint that the mob was going to rampage soon so that if your paying close attention you can catch it and stop the mob from 1 shotting someone.
Tal
So I have seen lots of people in this thread talk about Mez timers and how players will learn their timer and be able to predict when mez's will drop. But this doesn't really mean anything in regards to the origional post. Zoltar was suggesting a visual animation in the moments right before a Mez drops.
Zoltar said: This would be more realistic than a mob going from standing 100% frozen to instantly charging your group.
I don't understand why people think this is not a good idea. It's not as if he's suggesting there should be a big clock on top of the mob's head counting down until Mez wears off. He just thought that mobs might visually shake off the Mez and look around just before they go "Oh ya, I should be attacking that guy!" and charge. This has nothing to do with making the game easy mode or more difficult. It's about how realistic the characters and creatures in the game move during combat.
The real debate is totally about the animation time it might take. The Dev's will need to develop several main animations for every creature they make, such as their attack animation, taking a hit animation, casting a spell animation, walking, running, etc... Adding a "Shaking his head to wake up from Mez" animation to every single creature in the game might be time consuming. Or maybe it's really simple and easy and the Devs will have no problem with it. This is the only real reason it would be done or not done in my opinion.
Gurt said:Let's be realistic about this, if there are no in game ways to tell when CC or debuffs are fading then people will simply use third party timers and/or log parsers to allert them when something falls.
I ran an enchanter exclusively inside dungeons (no outdoor Kunark treadmill at all) from 1 to 65 before EQ1 showed buff and debuff timers. 3 years I played that enchanter old school, and to this day I have never downloaded a log parser or any other 3rd party add on for EQ. I mezzed/charmed just fine like a few thousand other enchanters did - with a digital clock that showed seconds somewhere near my monitor. And it's absolutely true that for the most part, I only glanced at the clock, and just had a feel for my mezz timers. The number of mobs alone made it pretty easy, but you do indeed get a feel for it. I derailed 8-10 mob trains in almost every mezzable dungeon the game had through Velious, and I never once used a log parser. Yeah, I made the occasional mistake and got a slap for it, but that's what runes and stuns are for.
No indicators, no timers, none of it. Cast mezz a few thousand times and you sorta get the hang of it. Same for DoT stacking, same for anything. Do it a lot, you'll get the hang of it. No assistance required.
Venjenz said:I ran an enchanter exclusively inside dungeons (no outdoor Kunark treadmill at all) from 1 to 65 before EQ1 showed buff and debuff timers. 3 years I played that enchanter old school, and to this day I have never downloaded a log parser or any other 3rd party add on for EQ. I mezzed/charmed just fine like a few thousand other enchanters did - with a digital clock that showed seconds somewhere near my monitor. And it's absolutely true that for the most part, I only glanced at the clock, and just had a feel for my mezz timers. The number of mobs alone made it pretty easy, but you do indeed get a feel for it. I derailed 8-10 mob trains in almost every mezzable dungeon the game had through Velious, and I never once used a log parser. Yeah, I made the occasional mistake and got a slap for it, but that's what runes and stuns are for.
No indicators, no timers, none of it. Cast mezz a few thousand times and you sorta get the hang of it. Same for DoT stacking, same for anything. Do it a lot, you'll get the hang of it. No assistance required.
This is what I'm talking about.
I like the cut of your jib, Ven
I am glad most folks agree that a short model-only animation would be a positive addition. So many other games have a similar cue that it would be odd for there not to be one. Correct me if I'm mis-remembering, but I think even some old MUDs has a text line "(mob)'s enchantment has begun to wear off", so its not even new. Ultimately, it passes the sniff test of making perfect sense with regards to logic and immersion, combined with variable mez times as mentioned previously adds some tangible excitement, as well as potentially being just plain a joy to watch creatures shake their head, rub their eyes, or whatever appendages they have. If the enchanters core challenge to an encounter is keeping a mental memory of the exact same timer ad infinitum, then good god on a surfboard thats as boring gameplay as I could ever imagine and reads like nostalgia than actual solid game design.
I'm 100% in favour of small visual cues being used in place of UI elements (for example, having a timer for the mezz/stun/CC over the target frame VS having a small aniamtions of the mob shaking is head 1-2 seconds before the effect wears off)
As the current UI stands we have acces to all debbufs timer information, we can see that in the stream all bebbufs are showed under the Mobs heath frame and when their timer is almost ending we get a flashin icon saying it ending.
I would much rather have the beffus over the small target frame that's near the action bar, instead of them being in the middle of the screen, and the timer should not be "given away" by the flashing icon, isntead the icon simply show what debuffs the target/mob has and the player needs to know the timer innately or look at the mobs animations when it's wearing off. The same can be applied to debuffs, instead of icon debuffs starting to flash right before they end, the debuff icon simply appears on the target and when the debbuf timer ends it disappers, the great players will know exactly when the debuffs are ending and will refresh them the seconds they wear off, the less attentive players will let the beffure wear out and will take 2-3 extra seconds before they reaply the debuffs again.
I really hope VR takes away the timer from the icons. I think it creates much more interesting gameplay and reinforces knowing your classes ability times and when to use your abilities instead of the UI telling you what to do 2-3 seconds before.
Have to agree with a few of my fellow old school Chanters, no need for any visual cues when mez is breaking. Play long enough and you know when it is about to happen. No need for any 3rd party program or even a clock. Your inner timer will tell you. I would be one of those that do not want any debuff icons at all on the mobs though, so i may be more hardcore than many here.
As for being a boring class to play because you have to rely on that inner timer, I couldnt disagree more :) No offense intended, but i found Chanter to be the absolute most fun/difficult class to play at a high level. Turning chaos into order is what we did best! Maybe Bard and Necro were up there as well in terms of difficulty, but we all know Chanters were the most fun.
-- Uvaas Sa'Avu
This thread makes me think about this one episode of Star Trek Next Generation. In this episode they found Scotty from the origional show and he is hanging in Engineering with Jordy. So something happens where Jordy needs to make some crazy recalibrations of something, and he tells the captain "It will take me 2 hours" or something like that. Scotty turns to Jordy and says "So how long will it really take you?" and Jordy responds "2 hours". To which Scotty says "You told him how long it would really take? You are supposed to give him an overestimation and then when you get it done in half the time he thinks you're a miricle worker."
Here in this thread so many EQ1 enchanters seem to be saying "NO NO don't put in Visual cues for when Mez is breaking!! How am I supposed to look like I'm super Hardcore amazing if there is a warning?" It seems like the main reason they are arguing against it is the idea that they want to prove that they don't need it and that if you want a warning you must be bad at the game. It just seems like a Pride thing where they want to look like a "miricle worker" just like Scotty in Star Trek.
Now I'm not trying to say that these enchanters were/are not amazing. Many of them are awesome and did amazing things in a game where they had no warnings. But it seems like they are worried that if in Pantheon there is a visual effect that happens just before Mez drops that it will in some way make them less amazing and might even let the "less amazing" players be just as good as they are.
I love visual cues. I love them when spellcasters are gearing up to unleash a spell. I would even love it on melee combat such as in the use of shields. And I love the aspect of visual cues being able to be used and discerned by all members of the group as an immersive aspect of the game.
And that being said, visual cues for breaking mez are not the sole domain of enchanters or whomever is casting that mezz. It would also be nice for other members of the group to be able to observe their environment and act on discernable visual cues. For all sorts of things - Mezz just happens to be one of them.
However, as others have pointed out, if it is a developmental burden then forego it. But, the visual cue, in my opinion, would enhance the game from a group and cooperative point of view. It has nothing to do with whomever cast the mez and whether they have the timing nailed down. Just a visual cue for mezz breaking. And if the call for better AI is carried through, then it stands to reason that the potential for an NPC to break another NPC mezz exists (not just a player breaking mezz) - and that would fall outside the realm of knowing the length of time of an uninterrupted mezz.
After I get used to the timers and internalize them I don't think the visual cues are going to matter to me as an enchanter. Put them in the game or don't, makes no difference to me. But this:
muscoby said:And that being said, visual cues for breaking mez are not the sole domain of enchanters or whomever is casting that mezz. It would also be nice for other members of the group to be able to observe their environment and act on discernable visual cues. For all sorts of things - Mezz just happens to be one of them.
That's a good reason to put some kind of visual cue in all by itself. Even if the enchanter doesn't need them, everyone benefits and they harm nothing.
I think bieng able to get a rough idea of the state of your spell based on the visual effects alone is a great idea. This of course could get very messy if there a lot of spells affecting an NPC at once. The more that the players are observing the world and not thier UI's the better!
Lyyr said:I think bieng able to get a rough idea of the state of your spell based on the visual effects alone is a great idea. This of course could get very messy if there a lot of spells affecting an NPC at once. The more that the players are observing the world and not thier UI's the better!
Agreed. I'm afraid the game is already overboard with hotbar/icon/status watching.
Keno Monster said:Lyyr said:I think bieng able to get a rough idea of the state of your spell based on the visual effects alone is a great idea. This of course could get very messy if there a lot of spells affecting an NPC at once. The more that the players are observing the world and not thier UI's the better!
Agreed. I'm afraid the game is already overboard with hotbar/icon/status watching.
Amen to that, I'm still hoping VR removes the flashing "wearing off" warning from the debuff icons, and moves the debuff icons to a less "center of the screen position in your face position", I'm fine with seeing what debuffs are currently applied the target, but don't tell/warn me when the debuffs about to end, leave that part of the gameplay to the player.
As for the animations of spells wearing off, I think an animation 0.5-1 seconds before the mobs breaks CC will not make it easier, because no one has the reaction time to target a mob and cast the CC spell before the mob breaks off the CC or the CC wears off, and even if you had the sick reaction times to do that, you would still need to cast the spell wich takes about 1-2 seconds. so a good crowd controler will always have to reaply the CC before the mob breaks out.