Angrykiz said:Can we have Powerpoint in game too so I can make spreadsheets and flowcharts ? /sarcasm off
In this day and age of cheap displays how hard is it to have a second monitor to keep track of whatever is needed ?
IMO this idea is a waste of effort along the lines of having in game voice chat.
The more stuff like this you add the more crowded the in game UI becomes.
Kiz~
The downside is that people with "less high power" machines don't want to have multiiple apps running because they can take away from what little performance they already hace. Not everyone can afford a $2,000+ gaming rig.
Trasak said:
Bonechip,
I added the journal to the Brainstorm thread, let me know if there is something you want to change. Don't let the haters get you down and keep the good idea's coming. Even if it is not an option for launch there are always expansions to be considered.
Trasak
Thank you much Trasak.
I try not to let them get under my skin. I just don't understand why they are not open-minded enough to have a rational conversation about a potentially useful addition.
With them, it always boils down to "I would never use that, neither should you".
:)
I have to agree with the majority of the post i've read. I think an in game Journal would be a nice addition. And for those that would rather use an actual pen and paper or a second monitor, nothing is stopping you from doing that. I think having an in game Journal would help people get immersed in the game. What would you rather do while sitting around medding, talk with the group and toss a few quick notes into your journal or play an ingame Tetris like gem game. Myself give me the Journal any day. I don't see it as taking resources away from the game I see it as adding another layer to help enhance what is already a great game.
Celandor said:Alternatively, sell nice Pantheon themed Moleskin notebooks and have us make hardcopy notes with a pencil. These would make a great stocking stuffer for the holidays and would look awesome on your desk.
I have a beautiful Tolkien version which my daughter gave to me several years ago. http://www.moleskine.com/au/news/hobbit-clothbound-notebook
They're quite classy and reasonably priced for the smaller versions.
Moleskine probably wouldn't do a Pantheon run, but I'm sure a vendor could be sourced to do something similar.
Love this. Add it to tradeskills. Allow scholar-like crafters to create tomes. Tomes of higher tiers of quality have more of the OPs desired capabilities.
Kalok said:Angrykiz said:Can we have Powerpoint in game too so I can make spreadsheets and flowcharts ? /sarcasm off
In this day and age of cheap displays how hard is it to have a second monitor to keep track of whatever is needed ?
IMO this idea is a waste of effort along the lines of having in game voice chat.
The more stuff like this you add the more crowded the in game UI becomes.
Kiz~
The downside is that people with "less high power" machines don't want to have multiiple apps running because they can take away from what little performance they already hace. Not everyone can afford a $2,000+ gaming rig.
Running notepad or adding that functionality inside the game will still be about the same if not more in system CPU/memory usage. Having unity engine draw a word editor with fancy graphics and the functionality that goes with it, I bet would take more computer resources then notepad. You will still have extra overhead reguarless if it's in the game or using another application.
If there was a in-game mechanic that was going to utalize this feature like some newpapers or whatever then I'd be more inclinded to say ok it may be useful game addition that will be used during gameplay but if it is just for note taking and blog entires then yeah I'm not so much onboard with it.
But it seems everyone is like for it so, I say good luck and always like new ideas.
Bonechip said:
Trasak said:Bonechip,
I added the journal to the Brainstorm thread, let me know if there is something you want to change. Don't let the haters get you down and keep the good idea's coming. Even if it is not an option for launch there are always expansions to be considered.
Trasak
Thank you much Trasak.
I try not to let them get under my skin. I just don't understand why they are not open-minded enough to have a rational conversation about a potentially useful addition.
With them, it always boils down to "I would never use that, neither should you".
:)
I hope you are not referring to me because for one I am not thinking like that and second I am having a conversation and not calling people names like "haters", like your buddy did. You have an opened mind about the reality that people will disgree and not just because its what you think they are disagreeing about.
If I disagree that don;t mean I am not open-minded.
Zeem said:Kalok said:Angrykiz said:Can we have Powerpoint in game too so I can make spreadsheets and flowcharts ? /sarcasm off
In this day and age of cheap displays how hard is it to have a second monitor to keep track of whatever is needed ?
IMO this idea is a waste of effort along the lines of having in game voice chat.
The more stuff like this you add the more crowded the in game UI becomes.
Kiz~
The downside is that people with "less high power" machines don't want to have multiiple apps running because they can take away from what little performance they already hace. Not everyone can afford a $2,000+ gaming rig.
Running notepad or adding that functionality inside the game will still be about the same if not more in system CPU/memory usage so this stance isn't correct. Having unity engine draw a word editor with fancy graphics and the functionality that goes with it, I bet would take more computer resources then notepad. You will still have extra overhead reguarless if it's in the game or using another application.
If there was a in-game mechanic that was going to utalize this feature like some newpapers or whatever then I'd be more inclinded to say ok it may be useful but if it is just for note taking and blog entires then yeah I'm not so much onboard with it.
But it seems everyone is like for it so, I say good luck and always like new ideas.
No, running things that are built into a currently running app won't necessarily take up more resources. There's more than just CPU and memory to take into account for. There's potential context switching, additional GDI overhead, and all sorts of things.
I love how you're so dead-set against things and then act like that just because you don't like it that nobody should have it. This isn't the first time that you've had this sort of attitude about a feature that someone suggeested. How about you just say, "I don't like that feature for reasons x, y, and z, but I can see how it might be useful for people." instead of saying, "I don't like that feature. They shouldn't waste their because there are other things that can do the same thing."
Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Angrykiz said:Can we have Powerpoint in game too so I can make spreadsheets and flowcharts ? /sarcasm off
In this day and age of cheap displays how hard is it to have a second monitor to keep track of whatever is needed ?
IMO this idea is a waste of effort along the lines of having in game voice chat.
The more stuff like this you add the more crowded the in game UI becomes.
Kiz~
The downside is that people with "less high power" machines don't want to have multiiple apps running because they can take away from what little performance they already hace. Not everyone can afford a $2,000+ gaming rig.
Running notepad or adding that functionality inside the game will still be about the same if not more in system CPU/memory usage so this stance isn't correct. Having unity engine draw a word editor with fancy graphics and the functionality that goes with it, I bet would take more computer resources then notepad. You will still have extra overhead reguarless if it's in the game or using another application.
If there was a in-game mechanic that was going to utalize this feature like some newpapers or whatever then I'd be more inclinded to say ok it may be useful but if it is just for note taking and blog entires then yeah I'm not so much onboard with it.
But it seems everyone is like for it so, I say good luck and always like new ideas.
No, running things that are built into a currently running app won't necessarily take up more resources. There's more than just CPU and memory to take into account for. There's potential context switching, additional GDI overhead, and all sorts of things.
I love how you're so dead-set against things and then act like that just because you don't like it that nobody should have it. This isn't the first time that you've had this sort of attitude about a feature that someone suggeested. How about you just say, "I don't like that feature for reasons x, y, and z, but I can see how it might be useful for people." instead of saying, "I don't like that feature. They shouldn't waste their because there are other things that can do the same thing."
So now I am too change how I talk and think? lol. I said what I said because thats how I feel about it. Talk about being open-minded.
This is how I am looking at it..
1.) What does it bring to the gameplay.
2.) Developement cost over benfit to the game
3.) Is it a nice to have or a gameplay requirement
4.) Security Issues
5.) Does it distract away from immersion
6.) Would it distract away from gameplay to negatively impact others in the game
I never said noone shouldn't have because I don't like it. Please stop putting words into my mouth #fakenews.
If thats how I make you feel then thats one thing but I never said that nor do I feel that way.
No conversation can be had if the people who disagree get attacked.
Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Angrykiz said:Can we have Powerpoint in game too so I can make spreadsheets and flowcharts ? /sarcasm off
In this day and age of cheap displays how hard is it to have a second monitor to keep track of whatever is needed ?
IMO this idea is a waste of effort along the lines of having in game voice chat.
The more stuff like this you add the more crowded the in game UI becomes.
Kiz~
The downside is that people with "less high power" machines don't want to have multiiple apps running because they can take away from what little performance they already hace. Not everyone can afford a $2,000+ gaming rig.
Running notepad or adding that functionality inside the game will still be about the same if not more in system CPU/memory usage so this stance isn't correct. Having unity engine draw a word editor with fancy graphics and the functionality that goes with it, I bet would take more computer resources then notepad. You will still have extra overhead reguarless if it's in the game or using another application.
If there was a in-game mechanic that was going to utalize this feature like some newpapers or whatever then I'd be more inclinded to say ok it may be useful but if it is just for note taking and blog entires then yeah I'm not so much onboard with it.
But it seems everyone is like for it so, I say good luck and always like new ideas.
No, running things that are built into a currently running app won't necessarily take up more resources. There's more than just CPU and memory to take into account for. There's potential context switching, additional GDI overhead, and all sorts of things.
I love how you're so dead-set against things and then act like that just because you don't like it that nobody should have it. This isn't the first time that you've had this sort of attitude about a feature that someone suggeested. How about you just say, "I don't like that feature for reasons x, y, and z, but I can see how it might be useful for people." instead of saying, "I don't like that feature. They shouldn't waste their because there are other things that can do the same thing."
So now I am too change how I talk and think? lol. I said what I said because thats how I feel about it. Talk about being open-minded.
This is how I am looking at it since you don;t understand.
1.) What does it bring to the gameplay.
2.) Developement cost over benfit to the game
3.) Is it a nice to have or a gameplay requirement
4.) Security Issues
5.) Does it distract away from immersion
6.) Would it distract away from gameplay to negatively impact others in the game
I never said noone should have because I don't like it. Please stop putitng words into my mouth. If thats how I make you feel then thats one thing but I never said that more do I feel that way.
No conversation can be had if the perople who disagree get attacked.
For the sake of keeping the conversation going in an amicable direction, I'll take a shot at this.
1.) What does it bring to the gameplay. - Aside from the conveniency of being able to jot down notes, "run along east wall from Dagnor's entrance to get to Gfay in BB." I could also see it as a great addition to auctioning. Assuming auction houses aren't in the game, and they follow the EQ EC tunnel track, how much more useful would it be to have everything in your journal, ready to go, that you can just copy and paste into an /auction when you run through the EC tunnel? Instead of having to retype/relink all your items every time you log on or run through? To me, that alone is enough for me to want it. After playing P99 and playing the tunnel for a bit, that would be a huge boon.
2.) Developement cost over benfit to the game - I'm not a developer, but as somebody already mentioned this is a feature that's probably already built in the unity engine and easily integrated within what pre-existing UI they have. I can't imagine something as simple as this taking much effort, or cost - but I don't know.
3.) Is it a nice to have or a gameplay requirement - I'd file this under "nice to have". One of the things that made the games we love great, was the challenge. That challenge, sometimes, went hand it hand with tedium, but it didn't have to. This is one way to keep the game hard, while adding quality of life changes to it that aren't necessary, but definitely could make people's lives easier without affecting the challenge of the game. How could it not?
4.) Security Issues - Not sure I understand this one. As long as people aren't typing out their social security numbers in the in-game journal, or username/password combos, I can't see how this would be a security issue.
5.) Does it distract away from immersion - As others have said, when comparing an in-game journal to alt-tabbing out of the game, this can only increase immersion.
6.) Would it distract away from gameplay to negatively impact others in the game - Not sure how this would negatively impact others in a game if I use a built in journal feature? Are you suggesting that I'm in a group, and instead of adding to DPS or pulling, I'm writing about my day in my journal? Honestly confused by this one. As for it being a distraction, rather I call it a feature to make downtime more enjoyable for some. While medding, in P99, I would love to have something to do other than organize my inventory for the umpteenth time.
Interested in your thoughts.
Tralyan said:For the sake of keeping the conversation going in a amicable direction, I'll take a shot at this.
1.) What does it bring to the gameplay. - Aside from the conveniency of being able to jot down notes, "run along east wall from Dagnor's entrance to get to Gfay in BB." I could also see it as a great addition to auctioning. Assuming auction houses aren't in the game, and they follow the EQ EC tunnel track, how much more useful would it be to have everything in your journal, ready to go, that you can just copy and paste into an /auction when you run through the EC tunnel? Instead of having to retype/relink all your items every time you log on or run through? To me, that alone is enough for me to want it. After playing P99 and playing the tunnel for a bit, that would be a huge boon.
2.) Developement cost over benfit to the game - I'm not a developer, but as somebody already mentioned this is a feature that's probably already built in the unity engine and easily integrated within what pre-existing UI they have. I can't imagine something as simple as this taking much effort, or cost - but I don't know.
3.) Is it a nice to have or a gameplay requirement - I'd file this under "nice to have". One of the things that made the games we love great, was the challenge. That challenge, sometimes, went hand it hand with tedium, but it didn't have to. This is one way to keep the game hard, while adding quality of life changes to it that aren't necessary, but definitely could make people's lives easier without affecting the challenge of the game. How could it not?
4.) Security Issues - Not sure I understand this one. As long as people aren't typing out their social security numbers in the in-game journal, or username/password combos, I can't see how this would be a security issues.
5.) Does it distract away from immersion - As others have said, when comparing an in-game journal to alt-tabbing out of the game, this can only increase immersion.
6.) Would it distract away from gameplay to negatively impact others in the game - Not sure how this would negatively impact others in a game if I use a built in journal feature? Are you suggesting that I'm in a group, and instead of adding to DPS or pulling, I'm writing about my day in my journal? Honestly confused by this one. As for it being a distraction, rather I call it a feature to make downtime more enjoyable for some. While medding, in P99, I would love to have something to do other than organize my inventory for the umpteenth time.
Interested in your thoughts.
Thanks good points.
1.) If linking is in the game then having notes in-game would be superior to say pencil and paper, and if the linking wasn't able to be transfered outside the game to notepad then even more so. BUT, I say notes as basic note system not a fully rich text editor. I said previsouly I can see the use case for note system.
2.) I am a developer and there may be some code useable for note system but it still would require development, custom code written, UI development, IO code written, testing. Thats just the basic note version.
3.) Yea I agree nice-to-have and this is where most of my reasoning comes from because at this point in the game I think they need to be focusing on core gameplay. This would be post-launch for sure.
4.) Alot to be considered. Are the notes viewable to other people, should there be moderation for public notes, or newspapers as was suggested. Thats VR staff hours or even more custom code to review and moderation public notes. Also saving and readin in files into the game client. Development world you always want to check user input so not to allow bad data into the system. One example is sql-injection or having the game client run unauthorized code. Given it might just be text but with rich text editors it get more complicated. The incoming data needs to be validated.
5.) For me personally alt-tabbing for having another monitor don't take away from immersion. Another example is something plays off something I noticed during my college years. People would constently be taking notes, writing everything down the professor said but not really understanding it so when they got home nothing in there notes makes any sence. For me, I took notes after I understood the concerpt then I wrote it down in my own words for later study. So for Pantheon I can see people taking notes and not really reading or listening to the quest or noticing visual cues because they migh tbe taking notes. Just my thoughts.
6.) You actually hit the nail on the head for what crossed my mind, people busy writing a blog and not paying attention to the gameplay in a group.
As I said before I'm down for basic notes but a full blow rich text editor, I just don;t see the need for it personally. If its some post-launch then whatever, recreate the entire Microsoft Office suite because here is a curveball. Instead of writting things down what if I want to DRAW my surroundings using a paintbrush in-game application to create in-game art I can display. :)
Zeem said:*snip*
As I said before I'm down for basic notes but a full blow rich text editor, I just don;t see the need for it personally. If its some post-launch then whatever, recreate the entire Microsoft Office suite because here is a curveball. Instead of writting things down what if I want to DRAW my surroundings using a paintbrush in-game application to create in-game art I can display. :)
*cough* For what its worth thats actually one of my tools I suggested in the Brainstorming Player generated content thread.
Trasak
Trasak said:Zeem said:*snip*
As I said before I'm down for basic notes but a full blow rich text editor, I just don;t see the need for it personally. If its some post-launch then whatever, recreate the entire Microsoft Office suite because here is a curveball. Instead of writting things down what if I want to DRAW my surroundings using a paintbrush in-game application to create in-game art I can display. :)
*cough* For what its worth thats actually one of my tools I suggested in the Brainstorming Player generated content thread.
Trasak
hehe yeah see I would use that maybe lol. But its a nice-to-have and well not something I would want them working on now or even for the foreseeable future.
Most of the ideas in that thread are for far after release. I just add them when I think of something and I'll let VR decide if they like it and where it might fit in with their plans. A couple of them are arguably major content updates in and of themselves but might still have enough return to justify the manpower. I only think that the Commodities Exchange is a contender for release as it opens huge amounts of play options for what is really a few special NPC vendors with variable buy/sell prices and what may even be just a slightly modified merchant window.
The amount of RAM required to run word pad is miniscule by all comparisons. Either way it will not have an effect on your FPS or ping, doesn't matter if it is in game or running in the background.
I like the idea of integrating the feature into the game on a broader level. Maybe you have to forge a note from the king to get past the guards without agroing. Maybe you need to steal a diary and alter what it says, then plant it where someone else will find it. Maybe you just want to write a love letter to your sweety and drop it in the mailbox. With a little creativity the feature could be integrated into the gamepaly in a fun and interesting way.
That being said, I won't be sad if VR doesn't think the feature is worth the investment.
If this is something that's being proposed for post-release, I don't see any problem with some sort of fancy in-game note-taking system.
Personally, I think it's wasted effort on the part of the development team as we have lots of tools for making notes on our computers. I feel the same way about creating an in-game voice chat system. Most people are going to want to continue to use their current chat platform, whether that be Discord, Mumble, TeamSpeak or event Ventrillo, just as many people will prefer to use their own note-taking methods.
In the case of a note system, its existence in a game doesn't force me to use it, so my play style is not affected. The opposite is true with in-game voice chat, which just muddies the waters further by providing yet another platform and fracturing the chat community further. If there's in-game voice chat, I'm going to be expected to use it.
I will probably stick with my pencil and paper notebooks. They are something which I treasure years later, even if I retire from a game. It's really awesome to look back at old hand-drawn maps and notes you made when you were first exploring a game.
Celandor said:In the case of a note system, its existence in a game doesn't force me to use it, so my play style is not affected. The opposite is true with in-game voice chat, which just muddies the waters further by providing yet another platform and fracturing the chat community further. If there's in-game voice chat, I'm going to be expected to use it.
This is an interesting point. I like having the option of a quick and easy voice chat without having to convince people to tab out, download a program, install it, figure it out, etc. But I also see your point that it could lead to a trend of having voice chat be the cultural norm. The way I see it this feature is really geared towards getting younger players involved in the game, as that is the kind of interactive functionality that the younger generations prefer. Kids dont even send text messages any more, then just send pictures back and forth, so expecting them to suddenly want to type for hours is unrealistic.
At the same time, I imagine that if you are doing any sort of dificult or multi-group content you absolutely will be expected to participate in voice chat, as that is just the end game norm in the MMO world. Honestly I expect that groups full of randoms will be very liberal about expecting people to join voice chat. I certainly have zero desire to hear some idiot ramble while I am trying to enjoy my game time, and have no problem muting them or whatever my options are. I do support in game voice chat, but only because VR has expressed interest in including it.
As a side note, a lot of the ideas that people are shooting down because they believe they are going to take up time and resources are actually super easy to achieve and would require almost no effort to include, voice chat included.
Celandor said:Personally, I think it's wasted effort on the part of the development team as we have lots of tools for making notes on our computers. I feel the same way about creating an in-game voice chat system. Most people are going to want to continue to use their current chat platform, whether that be Discord, Mumble, TeamSpeak or event Ventrillo, just as many people will prefer to use their own note-taking methods.
In the case of a note system, its existence in a game doesn't force me to use it, so my play style is not affected. The opposite is true with in-game voice chat, which just muddies the waters further by providing yet another platform and fracturing the chat community further. If there's in-game voice chat, I'm going to be expected to use it.
A lot of people don't want to add/invite a bunch of random people to their 3rd party voice chat servers so giving people the option in game is a very good idea. It won't ever become a requirement/expectation outside of possibly raids, most anyone would agree that voice chat is hit/miss as there are a lot of annoying people out there (I really hope the in-game voice only has push to talk, way too many mouth breathers out there or people with mics that pick up a television in the background).
Not to derail Bonechip's thread too much but for security reasons I don't like loading random, free to download, applications that connect me to external servers that may or may not be secure. At least with an in game VOIP I am only sending the data to VR who I am already consenting to trust. Conversely though my wife hates using VOIP and usually plays male characters because she doesn't want to be discriminated against/sexually harassed for being a woman, which is still very prevalent in MMOs.
Trasak said:
Not to derail Bonechip's thread too much but for security reasons I don't like loading random, free to download, applications that connect me to external servers that may or may not be secure. At least with an in game VOIP I am only sending the data to VR who I am already consenting to trust. Conversely though my wife hates using VOIP and usually plays male characters because she doesn't want to be discriminated against/sexually harassed for being a woman, which is still very prevalent in MMOs.
Good points Trasak.
I have previously used Teamspeak and Ventrilo. Both are solid, work as advertised, and are secure. There are many more out there, but these are the only ones that I have personaly used.
Saying that, I think that if VR does add some sort of integrated VOIP, it will just be an additional alternative tool to use.
Ultimately, it will be a Guild Decision for most players on which one they go with as a standard. Grouping is a whole different story. It is very rare that I get into voice chat with randomly invited group members before I get to know them first.
P.S. My Wife and I play MMO's together and never really ran into many idiots. For the most part, almost everyone we meet are/were pretty cool. I am sure there are the ones out there, but they are easily muted.
If a notepad / rich text gui within the game is going to push someone over the edge between their system being able to run it in a playable way and not, then they're pretty screwed already. The first patch could break them, and the first expansion would almost certainly do so. Something as simple as an update to add more armor textures would increase system load more than a text editor.
And creating a text edit gui is a pretty minute effort of coding. Hell I could do it in a day or two, and I would never presume to call myself a coder.
Bonechip said:Would love to see a UI window that allows you to keep a journal / notes. Everything you enter could be saved client-side so there would be zero overhead server-side.
EQ2 did come up with an interesting that seemed to work out very well for the community. They added the ability for crafters to create "blank books" where players in turn can write down just about anything and once placed within their house or guild hall, anyone can click on iut and read the contents. So you can write down your thoughts & notes and even allow visitors to your home to read your journal or notes.
Books were very popular in EQ2. They contian a lot of lore of the game and players would also publish their own. Here is an archive post from EQ2 Forums with the player Starson80uk showing off his Guild Library. In our old EQ2 guild, we would leave guide books for new guild members so they can learn the game, the layout of the guild hall, events and the guild rules of conduct.
I used to have multiple three ring binders for EQ. Spells, quests, maps, etc. I've evolved into using google sheets instead, since the spreadsheet format allows for sorts and searches. But I think the notion of an in-game notepad or even rich text doc system has a lot of merit. Particularly if it can augment the scibe tradeskill.
I don't want a game that catalogs every single thing and itemizes every item you need, and every quest you've been exposed to, and every zone you have need to explore for me. I think there's a lot of value in requiring players to evaluate what's important for themselves, cataloging things they thing are worthy of pursuit, and researching things that might be beneficial. Giving them in-game tools to do so bridges the gap, IMO, between hand-holding the player and leaving them completely on their own.