Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

How Long Do You Take?

    • Moderator
    • 8035 posts
    February 12, 2018 4:00 AM PST

    When you log into an MMORPG, how much do you expect to get done within a two-hour time frame? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    • 49 posts
    February 12, 2018 4:13 AM PST
    Good question and I wonder how much impact the replies will actually have on game design.
     
    For me a 2hr window is going to depend on how the game is designed. When I played WoW I expected to get through a bunch of quest points in two hours. I knew I could log off pretty much anytime I wanted so I just enjoyed the quest lines. I almost never tried for a group dungeon in two hours though because I always felt I would need to plan four hours to first learn a dungeon.
     
    When I played EQ then two hours was enough time to work on a quest or get setup for for whatever I was going to do the next time I logged in. I rarely thought in terms of two hours for EQ but instead preferred to plan four hour blocks. In fact, EQ was so time consuming I would rarely even bother logging on if I didn't have three or four hours free to play. The only way I felt like two hours was enough time to play is when I three boxed and didn't need to look for a group.
     
    So now what do I expect? I honestly expect games to have a mix of solo and group content. I expect to be able to run down some tasks or make some progress if I only have an hour or two. At the same time I expect there to be plenty of content for me when I do have four or more hours to play. I believe this can be accomplished through robust solo quests that offer cosmetic, fun, or utility items as rewards and then group quests which upgrade armor, abilities, weapons, or major quest lines.
     
    WoW lost me because there was just no real need to group since I got through content and levels so fast I could do it almost all myself. EQ lost me because it required so much time to progress that I just couldn't find time to play and do anything else in my free time. I'm hoping Pantheon finds a balance between the two.
    • 22 posts
    February 12, 2018 4:45 AM PST

    It really comes down to what objective I have for the session. 

    If I am not max level, it certainly is leveling. Leveling really depends on the MMO, some MMOs it is really easy to level. If we take original EQ into account I would expect to get from 1-6 in two hours. 

     If it is trade skilling, of course this depends A LOT on how the skills work or how long it takes to gather the resources but I expect it easier in the first and get progressively harder towards the cap. 

    I dont expect to get a whole lot of things done in a two hour time period, maybe a few of the lower-mid levels if I am going at it. Maybe researching and exploring possible new options for grouping. Looking for a quest mob or checking out goods people are selling. Fishing seems like a good thing to do. 

    I really want to get into tradeskilling. I ignored it in EQ and many other games... it was never worth the time. Since tradeskilling will actually matter all throughout the levels, I certainly plan on doing it. 


    This post was edited by Baid321 at February 12, 2018 5:19 AM PST
    • 501 posts
    February 12, 2018 5:57 AM PST

    If I don't have two hours to play, I'm probably not going to log in at all, so I would consider a two-hour window to be the minimum.  I don't have any specific expectation of what I want to "get done" in a specific session.  I may have a very rough idea that tonight I'd like to finish a particular quest or maybe join friends to check out a particular region.  That said, if I log in and find that a guildmate needs help or get a tell from someone about to embark on something that sounds like fun, I'll drop whatever I intended to do in favour of joining another activity.

    My concern when I hear questions about two-hour windows is whether dungeons and other content are going to be broken into bite-sized chunks to accommodate more casual gamers.  If I'm on to play for an evening, that's probably 4-5 hours.  It would not be unusual for me to play from 7 pm to midnight.  If travel is going to be significant and meaningful, then on arrival the zone should be large and meaty enough to keep me engaged long enough to make the trip worthwhile.

    I know there has been some discussion about creating safe spots in dungeons where players could log out and come back in relative safety to continue another day. There was also some discussion about getting transported when travelling if you were to log out while a group of friends were travelling and stay with your party or somehow arrive at the destinationwhen you return (like falling asleep on an airplane).   If it's common/normal for players to only commit two hours to a group or activity, then we're going to also need a mechanism to easily replace party members in large/deep dungeons.  Whether this is a class skill such as EQ magician's Call of the Hero or a more generic mechanism for all classes, swapping out the group's members during a run will become an issue.  I'm assuming of course that the dungeons have sufficient complexity to not simply be completed in 2 hours.

    If everything in the game is "bite-sized", then I will be disappointed and feel that Pantheon hasn't lived up to its old-school gaming legacy.

    Two-hour play windows imply that I'm already in a specific region and ready to play, again assuming that travel is non-trivial.  If my two-hour window is 20 minutes of travel and 20 minutes or more LFG, my time in a group has been reduced to barely over an hour. This is why I said I probably wouldn't even log in if I had anything less than 2 hours to play.

    I want meaningful travel in Pantheon but it comes at a cost.  If I've committed to come to a particular region to adventure in, then I shouldn't be able to hop trivially between zones to LFG or jump into town to craft, bank, etc.

    It seems to me that you can't have it both ways.  Short play sessions are in direct opposition to meaningful travel.  They're also in opposition to larger, more complex dungeon design.  

    Unless VR has some fancy tricks up their sleeves to handle this, I really hope the two-hour play window does not become the norm and that dungeons are not designed for 90-120 minute completion.

    My two-hour activity might consist of:

    * Travel to Thronefast
    * Hit merchants and bank
    * Hit marketplace looking for beaver pelts
    * Finish up crafting order for Aradune's new beaver hat
    * Collect a few regional quest items, talk to relevant Thronefast residents about on-going quests and "perceive" what I can from residents/clues
    * Travel to zone I hope to play in next session
    * Call it a night

    Alternatively it may be more like

    * LFG in current zone
    * Crawl/adventure for close to a solid two hours
    * Call it a night

    I would be very disappointed in Pantheon if I dinged twice in a two-hour session.

    Given that groups often break apart when a chunk of content is completed, I would not expect to have to find two or three groups each evening because we had "conquered" two or three dungeons.  Similarly, I wouldn't want to be in a group where we just do a dungeon two or three times in an evening.  This sort of dungeon design is the biggest reason why I dislike instanced content.  I don't want Twitter-sized activities in Pantheon.

    In summary, I would expect that in any two-hour window that I have fun for two hours, but I shouldn't expect massive progress of any kind in such a short period.


    This post was edited by Celandor at February 12, 2018 6:17 AM PST
    • 120 posts
    February 12, 2018 6:32 AM PST

    to be honest, i plan to have more than 2 hours sessions when i'll log in to live in Pantheon, more like 6 hours a day.

     

    but to answer the topic, if i had only 2 hours to play, what i'd like to achieve would be "having fun", and this "having fun" for me is key.

     

    "having fun" can come from simple world exploration, discovering new locations, discovering entrances of hidden dungeons, places, caverns, holes leading to underground playground.

    "having fun" can come while waiting for a boat for 30 minuts while fishing on the pier/beach/port whatever it could be.

    "having fun" can come while working on my crafting/harvesting skills for 2 hours or so, gathering materials, chopping wood, mining ores, etc etc.

    "having fun" can come in a dungeon i already know and where i'm heading knowing i'll probably find a group there and get dungeon fun, not necesseraly meaning that i'd get loot, i'll play mostly to have fun, fun encounters, complex dungeon designs, dark places, unforgiving places.

    "having fun" can come when i log online to be instantly invited by my friends to do group stuff, 2 hours is plenty to do so (even tho i'll play more daily)

     

    for me in a 2 hours sessions, it's all about going at my own pace, having a lot of choice to do different things, not only pure xp, but all the others aspects of a mmorpg, if i could play only 2 hours a day, i would not mind at all to take 2 full years to be max level if the whole leveling process involve tons of things to do, tons of things to explore, a overwhelming huge world filled with group content, filled with hidden places, filled with dungeons, filled with danger at almost every corner.

     

    if the game is immersive, then shall i have 30 minuts to play, 2 hours or more, i will be always fun, and that's what i want to achieve while playing a game specially a mmorpg, having a good time there.

    • 2393 posts
    February 12, 2018 7:02 AM PST

    I agree with a lot of what Celandor is saying.  When I think about a two hour session, I imagine half of that being dedicated toward getting a group together and making the trek to our destination.  One of the things I miss from oldschool MMO's is the time spent going to and fro.  If I only have a two hour play window I'll probably try to get some crafting or harvesting done or some other sort of solo activity.  In a game with meaningful travel, I think it's a disservice to your fellow players if you spend an hour navigating to a dungeon and already be halfway through your session.  I guess it depends on what the expectation for the group is but I know when I set up groups I'll usually tell players to give me an hour or so advanced notice prior to them having to log so that I can find a replacement for them in the group.  This is why a lot of players set up "static groups"  --  a lot of players understand that it takes time to organize a group and the last thing people want when they finally get a rhythm going is to stop in their tracks and head back toward the dungeon entrance.  Players appreciate efficiency and that's probably why "dungeon finder" was such a wild success in WoW.  You didn't have to worry about someone needing to log out during the middle of a dungeon because as soon as they do, another player will pop in and take their place.  Spells like CoH are a life-saver in these situations.  A summoner could have 50% of the damage of a wizard but if they can save the group hours of time when it comes to replacing another member, they will be invaluable.

    I'm hoping to see a massive world full of meaningful content for players regardless of their time constraints.  If I have two hours, I'll craft, harvest, go fishing, solo-farm, or maybe even spend some of that time trying to coordinate for my next session.  This could include making the trek to a dungeon that I plan on running with other players for my next session.  If that opportunity isn't available maybe I'll mess around with the auction house(s) or work on leveling up a skill like swimming, safefall or a weapon that has been collecting dust in my bags.  The more options players have when it comes to meaningful progression, the more meaningful their time in the game will feel.  I think that pretty much sums it up for me.  I'm really curious about the caravan feature and whether or not that is planned for launch or sometime after.  There is a lot to think about when it comes to the implementation of this feature and seeing that I have never actually seen it used in other MMO's, I look forward to learning more about it.  It would be great if someone who has experience with it could provide a couple examples of how they remember using it.  Preferrably good memories but if there were painpoints I would love to hear those as well.  More than anything, I would love to hear VR's vision of what they expect players to be able to accomplish.  There has been a lot of talk on the forum and other channels where players are asking what the expecation should be.  My hope is that we'll have plenty of things to keep us busy (particularly with horizontal progression) for shorter play windows but that there will also be large, epic dungeons that players can spend an entire day in without "conquering" them.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at February 12, 2018 8:22 AM PST
    • 417 posts
    February 12, 2018 7:17 AM PST

    Two hours in a group I would expect to earn 20% of a level at about the average point on the experience curve and with an average skilled group doing relatively safe content.  From my experience with Everquest though it can easily take 2 hours to find a group and travel to the location you wish to adventure at, down sides of; not having a means for fast travel, poor group finding tools, unclear availability of uncontested content, and demanding group compositions.

    Ideally two hours of dedicated harvesting could/should yield enough materials for two hours of dedicated crafting.  This would require the actual crafting process to be much more than a combine button and self filtering inventory.  Just think how crazy it would be if you actually had to control your hammer strikes to shape a blade from a rod, then had to hold the blade in the quench tank for an appropriate amount of time, allow it to cool also to a specific temperature.  Once at the target temp pedal the grinding wheel and move the blade across the wheel at the right angle until a good edge is made.  Finally shaping a good cross guard and wrapping or carving a good hilt and finishing with a decorative pommel.  Though it might be a little rough to actually expect players to actually learn how to craft in order to pursue a trade skill, especially if the quality of the result was effected by your technique.

    Trasak


    This post was edited by Trasak at February 12, 2018 7:21 AM PST
    • 1299 posts
    February 12, 2018 7:29 AM PST

    I agree with most of the above.

    Kilsin, your question can be read at least two different ways. When we currently log into a MMO what do we expect, or what would we expect from two hours in Pantheon. 

    I choose to read it the second way. By the middle of the game when we have learned the ropes and have a fair idea where things are and what we are doing I would expect to gain well under half of a crafting or harvesting or adventuring level. Even 1/10 would give some feeling of accomplishment in a very slow moving game. Too much more would be too ...modern.

    By contrast in Rift or EQ2 I can hit level cap in a day (not questing - high xp grouping). In LOTRO I got from 48 to 59 yesterday (that is the middle level of the game now) with a class that levels fast doing quests I know exceedingly well. Far too fast.

    • 122 posts
    February 12, 2018 7:31 AM PST

    Celandor said:

    I really hope the two-hour play window does not become the norm and that dungeons are not designed for 90-120 minute completion.

    I would be very disappointed in Pantheon if I dinged twice in a two-hour session.

    I agree with Calendor here. You can't have all content geared for 2 hour blocks or people who play 6 hours per day will be done with the game and move on in a few months. You also cant expect to be LFG for two hours and feel good about the time spent. This is a very dificult balance to find, though I have very high hopes for PRF.

    Things you should be able to do in 2 hours:

    1. Meaningful XP gains (10% of a level, not 10 dings).

    2. Meaningful travel.

    3. Collecting crafting materials / leveling crafting.

    4. Clearing 1-2 named mobs in a dungeon.

    5. Level your perception skill / follow a perception prompt.

    Things you shouldn't be able to do in 2 hours:

    1. Ding several times.

    2. Clear an entire dungeon.

    3. Travel all the way across the world and back.

    Part of the issue is finding fun things to do while you wait, which is why I really like the idea of in-game games like the card game from KOTOR. I like the idea of being able to collect a simple deck of cards, nothing fancy, and being able to play a game with friends or strangers just for fun. If you design the mini games well you wont have to change or update them when expansions come one. Maybe you can buy a pair of silly dice and play some kind of mini game with them, something along the line of "Pass the Pigs" if anyone has played that. I like the idea of mini games being some skill but mostly luck so that they are a little competitive but mostly just silly and enjoyable.

     

     

     

     

     

     

    • 129 posts
    February 12, 2018 7:37 AM PST

    I was going to type out my thoughts but found that Celandor covered most of it for me and then oneADseven posted the rest of what I might have said.  

     

     

     

     

    • 180 posts
    February 12, 2018 7:50 AM PST

    If my playtime were limited to 2hrs I would likely try to explore while attempting to harvest/gather or use the perception system.  If there is no means to find a group other than utilizing 3rd party messaging systems (message boards, apps/discord) or spamming in game chat I feel that trying to FORM a group, then GATHER the group, then TRAVEL to an area/dungeon will likely take much longer than 2 hours, unless the whole group is already within a reasonable distance to the destination (or it is acceptable to leave someone behind while the others progress).

    The class I choose and the utilities I can provide will help determine any other things I may do in a 2 hour window aside from explore at later levels in the game:

    Teleporting services

    Resurrection/Corpse summon services

    Assisting low level players: Passing out summoned weapons/armor or Buffing

    Escorting players through dangerous or unknown areas/pathfinding/bodyguard (because not everyone enjoys exploring monster infested lands when they just need to collect crafting materials).

     **Edit:  If the class I play is unable to solo I may also have an alt that is capable of soloing that I would play while LFG for my other character, like playing my mage while spamming "lvl xx warrior LFG - PST".  (I would hate being "forced" to do something like this...)

     


    This post was edited by Darch at February 12, 2018 7:58 AM PST
    • 895 posts
    February 12, 2018 7:54 AM PST

    Soloing or crafting or trading.  I wouldn't dare waste other people's time if I only have a 2 hr window.

    • 284 posts
    February 12, 2018 8:05 AM PST

    Marilee said:

    I was going to type out my thoughts but found that Celandor covered most of it for me and then oneADseven posted the rest of what I might have said.  

     



    This.

    Also, to maximize efficiency, plan well and be creative. Park yourself at a dungeon at the end of the previous play session if you know that next session you will only have two hours or less and want to XP. Don't want to bank because it takes a lot of time? Dump your stuff / money with a guildy or someone you trust who is planning on hitting up the bank so that you can stay in the field. (I would also recommend doing this at the end of the previous play session.) Collect from them later and tip them for their help. If you're bouncing back and forth between the bank and a dungeon every single (2 hour) session and because of that only XPing for an hour, you're not playing efficiently. If a person isn't concerend with efficiency, they can do as they please. But if you're concerned about efficiency, don't ask the devs to change the game to accommodate you. Plan better and accommodate yourself.

    Just my 2c.

    • 82 posts
    February 12, 2018 9:37 AM PST

    in two hours you can run a new / hard dungeon, or two familiar / easy dungeons with a static group.

    in two hours you can grind mob packs to get some xp or drops or faction fame/reputation.

    in two hours you can gather mats for couple of crafting points.

    or you just stay in the main city  spamming "LFG!!!" for two hours and nobody cares.... :(

     

    • 89 posts
    February 12, 2018 9:40 AM PST

    2 hours? Maybe 1 or 2 leveling quests within my starting area or locate the target of a perception quest I uncovered out in the world

    If I logged in and my group was ready to go at the start of a dungeon, I suppose we should be able to get to the first (maybe second?) "safe-space" in a couple hours

    Xbachs said "Meaningful Travel" and I agree that sounds right, but I struggle to define it... Maybe I should be able to hike from Thronefast to the Steppes of Ru'lun in that time, given that I'd likely encounter some bad guys on the way

    I think two hours should be the minimum amount of time anyone would have set aside to play, so I agree that not a lot should be expected to happen, though if your party is prepped and on time, you could make some headway at something

    I feel like areas outside of cities should all be fairly dangerous, so I'd expect to travel about two hours before finding a place I could safely log out (which I would consider setting up camp) but areas that are overtaken by enemies (maybe Vae Wood as an example? Something like that) should take far longer than 2-3 hours to traverse and should contain no suitable places for logging out/camping

    • 851 posts
    February 12, 2018 9:41 AM PST

    Being able to make useful progress in 2 hours doesn't mean *all* dungeons/planes/raids/whatever should be doable in 2 hours, it just means there should be plenty of core (group) content that doesn't require more than 2 solid hours or you may as well not start it.

    A few dungeons that, if you have done some research or go in with an experieneced leader, are doable in 2 hours would be great.

    Other dungeons can take longer than 2 hours, but some 'save' mechanism or simply 'safe' areas you can log out in (which you can get to every 2 hours) would be great.

    It was a common a massively limiting factor in EQ that if you didn't have a big block of time, like 4+ hours, you may as well just solo or not log in at all really.

    Cue Hardcore "You want to ruin the game!" comments...

    I think VR are clever enough folks to work out how to make the game much more accessible without ruining the feel or challenge of the game.

    It would be really sad to think there's no point even looking for a group if you *only* have 2 hours.

    To answer Kilsin's question without being restricted by EQ-thinking: -

    In 2 hours I would like to: -

    - Solo, trade, gather and craft or

    - Do some decent exploring in a large zone and get back to town or

    - Do some more directed travel and get to a new town or

    - Get a good session of solid group killing done or

    - Get through a small dugeon including a boss if my group was well prepared or

    - Do a section of a large dungeon and have reached somewhere I can jump in at next time I log in there (and don't have to exfiltrate)


    This post was edited by disposalist at February 12, 2018 9:47 AM PST
    • 33 posts
    February 12, 2018 9:53 AM PST

    Have fun is the #1 thing I would expect (I know, shocking answer).

     

    As a crafter I would expect to do the following:

    Gather resources (either through buying or harvesting).

    Craft items to use, handout, or sell

    Feel like I have made progress towards my goals (getting closer to next tradeskill level, helping the community, make a profit, etc).

     

    As an adventurer I would expect I could do the following:

    Gain xp that feels like an improvement.  (I liked EQ2's xp bar system where they had 2 exp bars.  1 for the level and the other until your next 10%, always saw your xp bar move).

    Ability to get into a group.

    Explore

    Travel

    Quest

    Help a friend (or stranger) out.

    • 490 posts
    February 12, 2018 9:54 AM PST

    When playing EQ voraciously, my friends and I had established play schedules.  We would meet up for a 1.5 to 2.0 hour session three nights a week. 

     

    We would stay in one camp spot grinding XP and hanging out together.

     

    Otherwise our 2-hour sessions was relegated to traveling and finding a new zone and new camp spot.  Then we would hang there for weeks.

     

    On my own I would spend 2 hour blocks doing tradeskills, traveling or more importantly solo pieces of quests.

     

     

    • 35 posts
    February 12, 2018 10:25 AM PST

    IF i want to play two hours, a dungeon crawl would be a nice thing to get done in that time. If i have less i would do some harvesting and little quests and do stuff i can do alone. If i have more time i would like to group up and  have some dungeon fun. So 2-4 hour Dungeoncrawls would be nice :)

    • 820 posts
    February 12, 2018 10:51 AM PST

    Really depends on where my character is parked when I log in. 

    If, say, he's been hanging out in Guk already, then in two hours I can usually expect to take ~20 minutes finding a group, and the remainder grinding away. Hour and a half of grinding is still worth it. 

    Take that same character and say he's been parked in the EC tunnel, I expect my time to be sent doing what I call, "adult time". The kind of crap you do during the weekend that you didn't have time to do during the week. Check for gear upgrades, run to the bank for that quest item you've had sitting in there waiting to turn in, get your guy parked near where you want to be the next time you come on. 

    • 88 posts
    February 12, 2018 11:22 AM PST

    There are some very interesting responses in here...

    I would be shocked if a game released in 2018 will survive if it takes 1 hour to set up a group and get to the location required to start adventuring. There is simply no way a subscription based game will survive if a player makes zero progress in his/her first hour of gameplay. Folks are literally asking for a game that will be DoA. However, I am completely unconcerned with casual non-endgame play in a 2 hour time window because that state of the game will only last a matter of a couple weeks.

    Having said that, I consider 2 hours to a be solid chunk of gaming time. In that amount of time, I would expect my guild to kill 1-2 relevant raid targets. If I log in for scheduled raid time at 9pm, I would expect the guild to be gathered and buffed by 9:15, and well into the encounter by 9:30. I would expect the raid mob to be dead by 10p, and the guild moving to the next target by 10:05. By 11p we should have gathered, cleared and killed the 2nd raid mob.

    If the raid zone is designed like the conveyor system of PoTime and later raids, I would expect several more raid kills in that 2 hour time frame.


    This post was edited by nscheffel at February 12, 2018 11:23 AM PST
    • 1830 posts
    February 12, 2018 11:47 AM PST

    I don't know how applicable the mentions in the thread of doing a dungeon "run" will be in this game, assuming there are camps. Seems like the game would be a huge mess of push/shove and stepping on toes if all groups were trying to crawl start to finish in dungeons (and it would be rather limited design wise if whole dungeons were made with such a small/tight level range). 

    disposalist said:

    It was a common a massively limiting factor in EQ that if you didn't have a big block of time, like 4+ hours, you may as well just solo or not log in at all really.

    I really don't think this was a thing. For the first 9 months to a year of playing EQ back in the day I had 2, sometimes 3 hours to play on weekdays and I never felt particularly limited. Depending on what camps I was trying to get into it generally didn't take more than 10-20 minutes to find a group, maybe an hour or two if I was trying to get into something like FBSS camp so I'd get on the list as soon as I'd log in then find whatever other group I with room until I got called. Sometimes I'd get a good hour+ in FBSS camp and other times maybe 30 minutes or not at all. 

     

    In 2 hours I'd expect the same as I did in EQ. Time enough to get a solid brick of progress in a level at a camp somewhere or time to travel to do some crafting and/or buying & selling. 

    • 314 posts
    February 12, 2018 12:07 PM PST

    Kilsin said:

    When you log into an MMORPG, how much do you expect to get done within a two-hour time frame? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    When starting a new character I like to get a level or 2 in 2 hours. When playing an existing character above level 20 i would like to see the experience bar move some

    • 851 posts
    February 12, 2018 12:56 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    I don't know how applicable the mentions in the thread of doing a dungeon "run" will be in this game, assuming there are camps. Seems like the game would be a huge mess of push/shove and stepping on toes if all groups were trying to crawl start to finish in dungeons (and it would be rather limited design wise if whole dungeons were made with such a small/tight level range). 

    disposalist said:

    It was a common a massively limiting factor in EQ that if you didn't have a big block of time, like 4+ hours, you may as well just solo or not log in at all really.

    I really don't think this was a thing. For the first 9 months to a year of playing EQ back in the day I had 2, sometimes 3 hours to play on weekdays and I never felt particularly limited. Depending on what camps I was trying to get into it generally didn't take more than 10-20 minutes to find a group, maybe an hour or two if I was trying to get into something like FBSS camp so I'd get on the list as soon as I'd log in then find whatever other group I with room until I got called. Sometimes I'd get a good hour+ in FBSS camp and other times maybe 30 minutes or not at all. 

    In 2 hours I'd expect the same as I did in EQ. Time enough to get a solid brick of progress in a level at a camp somewhere or time to travel to do some crafting and/or buying & selling. 

    When I say 'commonly' I mean often enough to be very annoying.  I guess I'm talking when you get to higher level, also.  Most of the grouping and activities would require an experienced group or even a guild and you could spend more than an hour just waiting for everyone to get together.

    I mean, I loved it more than life itself hehe, but I'd rather not do that these days and I'm sure VR can work out the kinks.

    • 272 posts
    February 12, 2018 1:03 PM PST

    I'm also in agreement with Celandor and OneADSeven . just my one coppers worth lol


    This post was edited by Shea at February 12, 2018 1:03 PM PST