I have steadily recognized this as an issue in existing mmo's. They age, they expand and the playerbase moves above and beyond their lowly beginnings. While on the auction house, prices skyrocket above and beyond as well. There is absolutely no reason that one piece of low level gear should cost 20 or 30 times more than what it should. This is the type of thing that would discourage new players. I am asking that you folks consider putting a price lock on gear when throwing it up on the auction house (weapons, armor and accessories only) that is BELOW current expansion level. This is the type of thing that would not go into effect until the first expansion. Yes, that is a long way off but I would really like to see this game succeed where others have failed.
For example, if the current content is 1-50 and an expack comes out raising the level cap to 60, then anything level 50 and below, gear that falls under the category of weapons, armor or accessories (those items necessary to gear out a toon) have a price lock when putting them on the auction house to ensure prices stay reasonable for that level range. Anything that is level 51-60 in this example would be allowed to be priced according to whatever the normal price settings are.
This is the type of thing that would promote longevity and keep new players coming in (at least it would not turn them away) while also making it easier for veterans to roll an alt, increasing replayability. This would still allow the free-trade aspect of the auction house for max level characters while ensuring that any new players are not getting screwed as the game ages and expands.
This makes some incorrect assumptions.
Gear is not level based in Pantheon. While certain gear will work more efficiently (stats-wise) than other gear, you will not be prevented from equipping and using gear because "It's too high level" or "It's too low level". In addition, Pantheon will have what is called the "progeny system" which encourages high-level players to roll new low-level characters and asasociate them, through the system, to their higher level characters which will encourage the "re-hunting of low level areas" and the re-use of lower level gear. Also, as of right now, they have not stated whether they are going to have an "auction house" or if it's going to be "ad-hoc selling" much like the Eastern COmmons Tunnel selling in the original Everquest.
I don't think that low-level item inflation is going to be as much of an issue in Pantheon as it is in other, modern,. MMOs. Pantheon is taking a completely different tack than they are and the main purpose of Pantheon isn't "a race to the top" like other MMOs are.
Kalok said:This makes some incorrect assumptions.
Gear is not level based in Pantheon. While certain gear will work more efficiently (stats-wise) than other gear, you will not be prevented from equipping and using gear because "It's too high level" or "It's too low level". In addition, Pantheon will have what is called the "progeny system" which encourages high-level players to roll new low-level characters and asasociate them, through the system, to their higher level characters which will encourage the "re-hunting of low level areas" and the re-use of lower level gear. Also, as of right now, they have not stated whether they are going to have an "auction house" or if it's going to be "ad-hoc selling" much like the Eastern COmmons Tunnel selling in the original Everquest.
I don't think that low-level item inflation is going to be as much of an issue in Pantheon as it is in other, modern,. MMOs. Pantheon is taking a completely different tack than they are and the main purpose of Pantheon isn't "a race to the top" like other MMOs are.
Agreed. A price lock is an artificial solution to a problem that probably won't even exist in Pantheon. I'd also add that the plan is to expand the game horizontally, not just vertically. A lot of games make the mistake of expansions only adding content to the high level "end game." But not so with Pantheon. There's really nothing stopping them from also adding low and mid level content to keep the lower levels dynamic.
Also, VR has said they will probably at least experiment with Auction Houses, but it's very likely that the AH will be regional, not universal. So to buy an item from AH or even see an item listed, you actually have to be present at the exact AH where that item was put up for auction by the other player. This is another thing that helps prevent inflation in the overall game economy as each region of the world will have its own dynamic economy. And since these AHs will probably be fairly scarce, that also means that there's not really preventing players from setting up their own more convenient trading hubs such as the EC tunnel.
In addition to everything that's already been said in this thread, supply/demand always plays a huge role in pricing. I remember in the old days of EQ when certain items from older zones were still extremely expensive, but the older the game got and the easier it became for ANY class to obtain the items, and at lower levels, the more the prices dropped. Blade of Carnage, for example, was everywhere the last time I played and under 1,000 platinum, but in the old days it was one of the most expensive items.
That being said, harder to obtain items or generally rare drops/harvests will obviously be more expensive because people will want those items for various reasons, but not many people will be able to supply them. As the game goes on those same items will drop in price as people figure out the market (supply/demand) and the market is more saturated with items.
dvious1 said:I have steadily recognized this as an issue in existing mmo's. They age, they expand and the playerbase moves above and beyond their lowly beginnings. While on the auction house, prices skyrocket above and beyond as well. There is absolutely no reason that one piece of low level gear should cost 20 or 30 times more than what it should. This is the type of thing that would discourage new players. I am asking that you folks consider putting a price lock on gear when throwing it up on the auction house (weapons, armor and accessories only) that is BELOW current expansion level. This is the type of thing that would not go into effect until the first expansion. Yes, that is a long way off but I would really like to see this game succeed where others have failed.
For example, if the current content is 1-50 and an expack comes out raising the level cap to 60, then anything level 50 and below, gear that falls under the category of weapons, armor or accessories (those items necessary to gear out a toon) have a price lock when putting them on the auction house to ensure prices stay reasonable for that level range. Anything that is level 51-60 in this example would be allowed to be priced according to whatever the normal price settings are.This is the type of thing that would promote longevity and keep new players coming in (at least it would not turn them away) while also making it easier for veterans to roll an alt, increasing replayability. This would still allow the free-trade aspect of the auction house for max level characters while ensuring that any new players are not getting screwed as the game ages and expands.
I don't think I could disagree more, for at least a few reasons:
1) You don't HAVE to use the AH to get your gaer. If you want somethng you see on the AH and dont' want to pay a given price, go get it yourself.
2) Having any one person/entity in charge of setting an items worth flies straight in the face of a player driven economy. While I have great confidence in VR's ability to make a great game, I simply don't want them telling me or anybody else what an item can be sold for.
3) "20 to 30 times what it should" and who decides this?
Aarpoch I agree in all respect with your second and third points. The first point ....less so.
At low levels we aren't really focusing on particular pieces that drop from certain enemies - we are focusing on getting ANY gear that can keep a low level alive and give a fighting chance to make fights less than impossibly difficult. Maybe a piece will drop from enemies close enough that the low level can get to them and weak enough that the low level can defeat. Then again, maybe not.
Quite likely a good way to get this gear is from crafters (or to become a crafter but not all of us enjoy crafting). As the OP correctly notes in other games prices for low level gear are often set at levels that new characters with rich older sibs or parents can afford but truly new players cannot.
This may be a problem in Pantheon or it may not be (Kalok may be right but only time will tell). It would be very premature to consider price-locks unless it does become a problem. But making sure that lower level gear can be crafted with materials that low levels can actually get and cheaply enough that it can be sold relatively cheaply while still providing a profit for the crafter would not at all be premature.
@dorotea:
1) You're right, maybe a mob will drop an upgrade peice of gear, maybe it won't. That's part of the game. We will kill many things, some will drop upgrade gear some will not. We can hunt till we get what we want/need.
2) Again, agree, a likely good way to get gear is from crafters. Indeed I have seen low lvl gear that would be in-affordable to an actual newb. We have the option to make a crafter.
Now, should we chose the AH instead of either of the above what we are essentialy doing is paying anohter player to do what we are unwilling to do. Yes, it may be easier. It may also be quicker. however I simply disagree with any form of control over pirces for goods/service which we the player are capable of but chose not to do. To phrase it a bit simpler: if sombody is providing a good/service that we are unwilling to do ourselves then we either pay it or move along.
Now, for clarity of my stance, I agree that charging insanely high prices (whatever is deemed to be so) is not something I'm fond of, but in my opinion tying to regulate prices is even worse. We have the option to farm/craft lvl appropriate gear. If we choose not to then we must deal with the consequence (price) of our choice.
dorotea said:Aarpoch I agree in all respect with your second and third points. The first point ....less so.
At low levels we aren't really focusing on particular pieces that drop from certain enemies - we are focusing on getting ANY gear that can keep a low level alive and give a fighting chance to make fights less than impossibly difficult. Maybe a piece will drop from enemies close enough that the low level can get to them and weak enough that the low level can defeat. Then again, maybe not.
Quite likely a good way to get this gear is from crafters (or to become a crafter but not all of us enjoy crafting). As the OP correctly notes in other games prices for low level gear are often set at levels that new characters with rich older sibs or parents can afford but truly new players cannot.
This may be a problem in Pantheon or it may not be (Kalok may be right but only time will tell). It would be very premature to consider price-locks unless it does become a problem. But making sure that lower level gear can be crafted with materials that low levels can actually get and cheaply enough that it can be sold relatively cheaply while still providing a profit for the crafter would not at all be premature.
Agree with Dorotea here, I know what the OP is talking about...things priced so high (usually due to a couple people monopoloizing what is sold on the AH) that newbies don't have any chance to get that piece they need. I started low balling my products in Ryzom, to accomodate those folks who just don't have the vast amounts of money to afford to buy. But that's me, and that only works if you don't have someone buying everything up and charging much more for it...which is usually what happens. Don't have the solution for this, gold and plat sellers will try to increase their footprint in these areas, and a good way to recognize them...is if page after page after page of AH...represents the same person's name. It means they have cornered the market..and nobody else can play.
Which in the end discourages those who are honest crafters...this happened in EQII ..in the end I quit playing, wasn't enjoyable any more. Those that camp the AH for 24/7...be sure that person is monopoloizing..buying everything up..and selling it for much more than its worth. So it becomes a one man show and we aren't invited. :P
Cana
Aarpoch said:Now, should we chose the AH instead of either of the above what we are essentialy doing is paying anohter player to do what we are unwilling to do. Yes, it may be easier. It may also be quicker. however I simply disagree with any form of control over pirces for goods/service which we the player are capable of but chose not to do. To phrase it a bit simpler: if sombody is providing a good/service that we are unwilling to do ourselves then we either pay it or move along.
Now, for clarity of my stance, I agree that charging insanely high prices (whatever is deemed to be so) is not something I'm fond of, but in my opinion tying to regulate prices is even worse. We have the option to farm/craft lvl appropriate gear. If we choose not to then we must deal with the consequence (price) of our choice.
I agree entirely with Aarpoch. I only get frustrated when the actual content is being locked down by a small group of players. I need one last item for my epic and the only way to get it is to pay a million plat to the guild that's monopolizing the one and only drop point.
If it's just a question of convenience, then pay whatever the market price is or do without. For the most part, new players should be hunting and questing for their equipment. If there is some good player-made gear, then use your communication skills to find the craftsperson who is making it. Automated auction houses make it far too easy for people to hoard and monopolize. Buying straight from the source ensures access to anyone who can pay the cost of materials plus a reasonable fee to the maker.
Communication is key. Keep in mind, too, that you can still communicate with players while an AH is present. I have been doing it for years. If you see something you like that is priced a little bit higher than what you want to pay, send the seller a message and see if you can work something out. Most players don't do it because it requires effort. Building a relationship with other players is worth more than gold in an MMO.
I agree that insuring that newer players *can* participate in the economy is very important. I also agree that setting price floors and cielings is the wrong way to do it.
Regional markets will certainly help, as will an itemization design that is not based on level.
However I also think that the game's developers will want to monitor the economy over time and make adjustments if prices get out of whack. If prices on a low-level dropped item are super high because it's just too rare, then a case could be made to increase the drop rate slightly. If a powerful crafted item is becoming too common, a case could be made to adjust the material requirements for the recipe. Yes, this means that I'm condoning nerfs, but sometimes nerfs are needed.
The key, however, is that this should be done on a case by case basis, and intentionally, to help correct severe over- and under-supply situations. Simply deciding that no one should ever be selling anything for more than 50 platinum, is the wrong way to go about it.
:)
Not gonna be an issue. VR is a group of SMART, seasoned VETERANS, of all things MMORPG.... they have seen it all and this community will also keep them on their toes as well with really good suportive feedback, as well as reporting incidents and instances of game breaking activities.
I for one am super excited about the things they are implimenting such as progeny and mentoring systems. As well as the whole keeping friends together easier through their dynamic grouping systems.
dvious1 said:I have steadily recognized this as an issue in existing mmo's. They age, they expand and the playerbase moves above and beyond their lowly beginnings. While on the auction house, prices skyrocket above and beyond as well. There is absolutely no reason that one piece of low level gear should cost 20 or 30 times more than what it should. This is the type of thing that would discourage new players. I am asking that you folks consider putting a price lock on gear when throwing it up on the auction house (weapons, armor and accessories only) that is BELOW current expansion level. This is the type of thing that would not go into effect until the first expansion. Yes, that is a long way off but I would really like to see this game succeed where others have failed.
For example, if the current content is 1-50 and an expack comes out raising the level cap to 60, then anything level 50 and below, gear that falls under the category of weapons, armor or accessories (those items necessary to gear out a toon) have a price lock when putting them on the auction house to ensure prices stay reasonable for that level range. Anything that is level 51-60 in this example would be allowed to be priced according to whatever the normal price settings are.This is the type of thing that would promote longevity and keep new players coming in (at least it would not turn them away) while also making it easier for veterans to roll an alt, increasing replayability. This would still allow the free-trade aspect of the auction house for max level characters while ensuring that any new players are not getting screwed as the game ages and expands.
If EQ is an example, you won't see this. "Lowbie" gear only gets cheaper. It may cost more coin currency, but the market itself is more saturated, and people give things away like crazy.
DAOC did something unique back then, didnt wow copy that format? I forgot i had vanilla wow up until 50.
I do not believe gear should be handed to anyone, as some may remember how difficult it was in EQ, in 1999 when we had cloth gear, moving to bronze etc... it took quite a while actually.
CanadinaXegony said:dorotea said:Aarpoch I agree in all respect with your second and third points. The first point ....less so.
At low levels we aren't really focusing on particular pieces that drop from certain enemies - we are focusing on getting ANY gear that can keep a low level alive and give a fighting chance to make fights less than impossibly difficult. Maybe a piece will drop from enemies close enough that the low level can get to them and weak enough that the low level can defeat. Then again, maybe not.
Quite likely a good way to get this gear is from crafters (or to become a crafter but not all of us enjoy crafting). As the OP correctly notes in other games prices for low level gear are often set at levels that new characters with rich older sibs or parents can afford but truly new players cannot.
This may be a problem in Pantheon or it may not be (Kalok may be right but only time will tell). It would be very premature to consider price-locks unless it does become a problem. But making sure that lower level gear can be crafted with materials that low levels can actually get and cheaply enough that it can be sold relatively cheaply while still providing a profit for the crafter would not at all be premature.
Agree with Dorotea here, I know what the OP is talking about...things priced so high (usually due to a couple people monopoloizing what is sold on the AH) that newbies don't have any chance to get that piece they need. I started low balling my products in Ryzom, to accomodate those folks who just don't have the vast amounts of money to afford to buy. But that's me, and that only works if you don't have someone buying everything up and charging much more for it...which is usually what happens. Don't have the solution for this, gold and plat sellers will try to increase their footprint in these areas, and a good way to recognize them...is if page after page after page of AH...represents the same person's name. It means they have cornered the market..and nobody else can play.
Which in the end discourages those who are honest crafters...this happened in EQII ..in the end I quit playing, wasn't enjoyable any more. Those that camp the AH for 24/7...be sure that person is monopoloizing..buying everything up..and selling it for much more than its worth. So it becomes a one man show and we aren't invited. :P
Cana
Cana, those same people might have logged on someone else to purchase your gear cheaper then resell it at a high rate. LOL not trying to burst your bubble.... happens too much these days.
The best way for a new player to get into a mature game is probably to join an established guild. In a guild you will usually have crafters who can help a new player with items at material cost, or higher level players may help them with quests, or hand down items directly. So IMO the game should try to nudge/encourage new players to look for and team up with other players quickly instead of giving them the impression that they can do everything on their own (as it is in other modern MMOs), this would be the best way for a truly newbie friendly game.
Sarim said:The best way for a new player to get into a mature game is probably to join an established guild. In a guild you will usually have crafters who can help a new player with items at material cost, or higher level players may help them with quests, or hand down items directly. So IMO the game should try to nudge/encourage new players to look for and team up with other players quickly instead of giving them the impression that they can do everything on their own (as it is in other modern MMOs), this would be the best way for a truly newbie friendly game.
The only problem is see with that, is the majority of new players that are raiders heavy geared achievement type players move on very quickly and use what little stepping stone they can from those type guilds. Its unfair, but that is life, a stepping sttone to most things in life.