Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

When is enough, enough?

    • 9115 posts
    January 25, 2018 3:57 AM PST

    How many times dying or wiping does it usually take for you to give up and come back to that particular task again later? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    • 11 posts
    January 25, 2018 4:01 AM PST

    Until the target wipes!

    • 1315 posts
    January 25, 2018 4:14 AM PST

    Usually depends on how close to succeding we get.  If we keep failing in the last 10% I've seen groups hammer it up to 10 times, in fact its usually more a function of how much time is involved in resetting after a wipe and how much of a 3 hour period it eats up.  If on the other hand you are wiping in the first 10%, maybe 3 times?

    • 16 posts
    January 25, 2018 4:18 AM PST

    Untill there is nothing more to learn from your deaths. Sometimes things just are to strong for you. 

    Sometimes pushing the limits can be the greatest feeling in games like these.

    i guess the real question for me would be risk vs reward

     

    • 67 posts
    January 25, 2018 4:29 AM PST

    Depends on the goal and my level of determination at the time.

    Back in FFXI, when I was going for my first Advanced Job, Samurai, a group of us all stuck it out until we all got it. Was several hours in all, and into the early morning hours, but it was so worth it. Had lots of fun, some epic fails along the way, and numerous deaths, but also met some of my earliest friends in the game.

    Other times, if it's something I know I can just come back to any time, I'll leave it be and come back to it later after the first or second death.

    Also depends on if I feel the death was fair/understandable or not. Could I clearly see where I screwed up and learn not to make that mistake the next time? Or was it something cheesy about the game's programming that I just didn't feel like dealing with at that time? FFXI had cheesy things like this - not being able to run over a 2" tall bump in the ground, mobs hitting you with melee strikes when chasing 20 feet behind you, while the opposite wasn't true even if you were right on top of them, etc.

    And so on...

    As a tangential rant on the topic... Knowing when to walk away and, ideally, accept that you were doing something wrong, even if you don't know what it is at the time, can be a valuable lesson in itself. It's something those people could have learned during that famous 18-hour Pandemonium Warden attempt in FFXI, getting sick in some cases. No one among them seemed to consider that maybe, just maybe they were doing something wrong, and that's why the thing wouldn't die. Nope, instead they embraced the conceit that it couldn't be they who was at fault there.. no no.. it must have been that SE deliberately created a boss that took that long, or longer. Same thing with Absolute Virtue, people couldn't figure out the trick to defeating it, so insisted SE made it impossible... even after SE released a video providing clues/hints for what to do. It's become urban legend, and widely considered as "known fact" (because clearly, people knew exactly what was going on at SE's design meetings back then) that they deliberately made each fight impossible. Back in reality, in both cases, the groups involved were using ineffective strategies, but their egos as being "hardcore end-gamers" wouldn't let them accept it.

    At some point, you have to realize no matter what angle you come from, or how hard you try, you will never drive a 9" nail through a 2x4 with a plastic drinking straw.


    This post was edited by Wolfsong at January 25, 2018 5:15 AM PST
    • 724 posts
    January 25, 2018 4:55 AM PST

    Trasak said:

    Usually depends on how close to succeding we get.  If we keep failing in the last 10% I've seen groups hammer it up to 10 times, in fact its usually more a function of how much time is involved in resetting after a wipe and how much of a 3 hour period it eats up.  If on the other hand you are wiping in the first 10%, maybe 3 times?

    Pretty much this. Sometimes however in those "almost got it done" situations, it is sometimes helpful to actively stop, step away from the encounter and sleep on it. It helps to take in all the lessons learned, and then you may succeed on the first try next time.

    • 690 posts
    January 25, 2018 5:07 AM PST

    Kilsin said:

    How many times dying or wiping does it usually take for you to give up and come back to that particular task again later? #PRF #MMORPG #MMO #communitymatters

    Well first I try the normal way

    Then I try the cheesy way far more than I tried the normal way (popping invis and sneaking past the tough enemies)

    If both don't work for a day or so I usually give up for a few levels or try to find a high level I can pay=)

    • 105 posts
    January 25, 2018 5:25 AM PST

    Depends on the situation but as long as me and my group are having fun then we try again!

    I recall taking down Hakkar for the first time in ZG on WoW on the last of 6 or 7 attempts, we had been doing the raid for a couple of months so to take him down after he had wiped us numerous times was so satisfying!

    • 1281 posts
    January 25, 2018 5:38 AM PST

    It varies. Depends on the mood that I am already in. Usually, though, if I am in that kind of mood, I sill stay away from "the hard stuff" for the time being.

    • 121 posts
    January 25, 2018 6:28 AM PST
    Depends on the game mechanics for me. If the death penalty is minor then I'll throw myself at it untill everyone else gives up or it's time for me to log off.
    If the death penalty is more like EQ and exp is slow to get then I'll throw myself at it only untill I feel that its reasonably obvious that the encounter is to much for us (likely around 3-4 attempts). Then take some time to evaluate if we need a better class makeup, more lvls, or better gear and come back when we have a better chance of success
    • 2138 posts
    January 25, 2018 6:37 AM PST

    about 4 times, generally.

    Second attempt is to try the first attempts tactics again but using the knowledge learned from first attempt , like the cleric saying " i'll load my disease cure" or a druid saying "I will root away the adds" kind of thing.

    Third attempt is predecated by much discussion surrounding new , agreed upon tactics.

    Fourth attempt, we pretty much know how the monster will react and what our weaknesses are and the attempt is motivated by alot of hope but no expectations.

    Generally if the fourth attempt goes south the consensus is to do something else. Hopefully the realization is not too acerbic, like "if we had MORE DPS! *glaring at the mage and rogue*" or "If we had a REAL TANK *glaring at the paladin*" or "If we had a REAL HEALER" *glaring at the druid*" Or "we need a shaman, anyone know one thats on?" which may encourage a 5th attempt.

    But usually doing something else that is known like a normal grind or camp to help re-boost confidence and allow reflection on the fight or segway into talking about other things, like "Let's do dock goblins" or, "Lets try that catty-wampus camp over there for a bit, only three, maybe one caster" 

    • 429 posts
    January 25, 2018 6:38 AM PST

    I never give up , unless everyone logs or leaves lol

    • 11 posts
    January 25, 2018 7:22 AM PST

    I remember my first Naggy raid. i died 23 times and lost 2 level........ 

    • 1 posts
    January 25, 2018 7:47 AM PST

    I'd like to say this was all rationally thought out and had a defined quantity, but it doesn't.  For me it all about how I feel about what is being attempted.  Most of the time I'd say its a 3-5 attempts and I've had enough.  Sometimes my stubborn streak hits and I'll keep trying till no one has the will to try again.   Sometimes its a single try, and a realization that this isn't happening at this moment.

    • 37 posts
    January 25, 2018 8:01 AM PST

    if i keep wiping with my group, it's ok, i love it, we just go carefully back to our corpses, get our stuff, buff, rest, and then we go back at it !!!

    to answer the question, it's not a matter of times, it's a matter of will.

    if someone leaves the group we just look for someone else to fill the empty spot.

    bring me the challenge, i love to suffer bwhahahahaha.

    • 120 posts
    January 25, 2018 8:17 AM PST

    I think our server first Onyxia kill took 12+ tries and lasted maybe 7 hours. But we all really wanted it, so the motivation to keep going was there. Also we came close several times before finally finishing the fight, so we knew we could do it and that we werent just failing an equipment check or something. I think that was the longest we ever tried one fight without giving up.

    I suppose I will keep trying as long as I feel like there is a chance of success. If we get slaughtered I am not likely to want to try again. That and time constraints; if a corpse run takes 45 minutes I might only get a few tries in before I have to tend to RL.

    • 1785 posts
    January 25, 2018 8:28 AM PST

    It depends on the group I'm with.  When you're learning an encounter, wiping and trying again is part of the process.  So you can do that a few times and the group will get better each time - potentially eventually beat it.  But there's a point where you hit diminishing returns, or where people just start to get tired and distracted and start making more mistakes, rather than less.  At that point I usually call it.

    It's different for each group of people, but as a raid leader in various games I've usually found that on average it sets in after about an hour of banging our heads against the same target (usually 7-9 attempts), or about 3 hours of total raid time.  Because of that I tend to try to cap the raids I run at 3-3.5 hours in length whenever I can, and if I see the raid starting to falter simply because we've been pushing at a single fight too long, I'll call it early and we'll come back the next week to try again.

    It's worth pointing out though that the guilds I lead are not "hardcore" raiding guild.  I have people who want to raid, but who have other priorities in game besides raiding - and the vast majority of them are adults with day jobs, and children, and who simply can't do long game sessions on a regular basis.  So, a guild full of people who can make that 5-8 hour time commitment multiple times a week may have more "stamina" for this sort of thing than my groups would.

    • 51 posts
    January 25, 2018 10:06 AM PST

    If i fail then i'll try next level :-)

    Jim


    This post was edited by Zaztur at January 25, 2018 10:07 AM PST
    • 557 posts
    January 25, 2018 11:37 AM PST

    I almost didn't have to read the question after seeing the title.  The answer globally is "Never".

    I won't pretend that sometimes it's not discouraging to repeatedly fail at something.  That's not the point.  The reward of finally succeeding just is richer if you had to put considerable time and possibly tears into the effort.   

    People who give up too quickly are missing the point of playing a game like Pantheon or EQ.  It's all about the journey and the stories that get told afterward.

    • 2752 posts
    January 25, 2018 11:52 AM PST

    It depends on the type of content. Raids you generally just keep throwing yourselves against the wall until it breaks provided you know you are all adequately geared. Grouping? A couple wipes generally signals to try elsewhere. Solo? 1 death is enough to come back later unless the mob was down to 10% or less when I died and I could think of some area I could improve upon my combat against the mob. 

    • 112 posts
    January 25, 2018 11:58 AM PST

    Depends on the members of group or raid. If we are having fun and joking around we can go on for hours trying to get it right. If the members become restless / tempers starting to flare up then it is time to call it quits and comeback later.

    • 696 posts
    January 25, 2018 11:59 AM PST

    When the sun rises and I have work in a few hours...

    • 19 posts
    January 25, 2018 1:13 PM PST

    when my poopsock is full up!

    • 470 posts
    January 25, 2018 2:18 PM PST

    Trasak said:

    Usually depends on how close to succeding we get.  If we keep failing in the last 10% I've seen groups hammer it up to 10 times, in fact its usually more a function of how much time is involved in resetting after a wipe and how much of a 3 hour period it eats up.  If on the other hand you are wiping in the first 10%, maybe 3 times?

    Pretty much that. We'll keep hammering as long as we think there's a chance we can take it and aren't just in over our heads, which has happened a few times. :p

    • 363 posts
    January 25, 2018 2:22 PM PST

    Trasak said:

    Usually depends on how close to succeding we get.  If we keep failing in the last 10% I've seen groups hammer it up to 10 times, in fact its usually more a function of how much time is involved in resetting after a wipe and how much of a 3 hour period it eats up.  If on the other hand you are wiping in the first 10%, maybe 3 times?

    I agree. I've been in way too many groups (in various games) that refused to admit that our current group setup, gear and capablities were just not going to cut it. Ramming your head against a stone wall just so you can tell everyone "Look! I think I chipped it! Let's keep going!" is kinda silly, IMHO. Take a step back, rethink your options and try again later (if you keep failing time after timer after time).