Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Why don't warriors need to 'med'?

    • 2756 posts
    January 21, 2018 7:32 AM PST

    Apologies if people think this has already been discussed, but I think previous 'medding' discussions (from a search) were more about casters having to sit during combat or meditation animations or whatever.

    I would like to address something that has bugged me in many games over the years, even pen and paper RPGs, not just computer MMORPGs: -

    Why don't warriors have to rest?

    I find appeal in all 'classes'. Over the years I've had all manner of 'avatars', but one thing that appears universal (and is universally annoying) is that magic-users have to rest (meditate) to regain power (mana) and warriors just keep swinging and swinging and swinging...

    In some games there's a 'stamina' reserve. I think Elder Scrolls Online did this well where you can even have characters that have abilities drawing from both mana and stamina reserves in a similar way, but, ironically, it was often the stamina reserve that was harder to replenish as running, for example, could run you out of your stamina reserve, where mana would replenish while running.  A running mage = good to fight. A running warrior = useless.

    So, what I am getting to is this: What I have seen so far in Pantheon streams leads me to believe it will operate pretty much like EQ did, ie. Warriors have a stamina reserver that may restrict their ability to 'burst' attacks, but they can always continue default attacks while stamina is very quickly regained.  They bascially are able to use their special combat abilities over and over for ever with no need to stop short of dying and, even when somehow low on reserves of physical power, they have 'default' combat attacks that continue.

    Casters however have a mana reserve that is exhausted as they use abilities but only returns slowly and while completely inactive. They have no 'default' attack and contribute in no way when their reserves are exhausted.

    What this leads to (and has always lead to, even in Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper) is casters not having as much to do, spending much of their time inactive and even being resented for 'slowing things down'. I have had many a group in the past that criticises casters who do anything but use their most mana effecient, directly useful spells. Even if this isn't opening voiced, as a caster you often pressure yourself to be 'efficient' in order to not slow down the progress of the group or yourself even. Lots of more 'fun' and 'utility' spells are out of consideration because there are warriors champing at the bit to start swinging at the next monster.

    Now, I fully understand and support the idea that 'downtime' encourages a good thoughtful pace of combat and allows for important social interaction and bonding.

    What I question is why warriors don't have to do the same as wizards? Even a very fit man after swinging a sword for a few minutes will be exhausted and need to rest to continue doing anything but the most basic of combat moves.

    I think there is no reason that 'power' and 'stamina' shouldn't mean exactly the same thing to both casters and sword-swingers.

    A warrior executes an ability, he spends power (physical energy reserves) and stamina (his immediate capacity to execute abilities in bursts). Until he rests, his energy reserves are spent, but his stamina returns as he just performs normal/default combat.  If he runs out of power, he can only maintain a basic/default combat output/defense.

    A mage is exactly the same, but spends magical power.  His stamina for casting in quick bursts is the same as the warrior, though that stamina has perhaps a more mental aspect, it functions identically. Resting is identical to the warrior, though is more meditative.  He should alos have a basic/default combat output (wand magic missiles, staff fire jet, whatever).

    Some warriors (monks) may be a more meditative 'rest'. It doesn't matter.

    What I would suggest, along with this approach, is an improved method of regaining power in combat. Warriors would need to perhaps sing battle songs to regain power, but obviously this would mean no use of special abilities.  Mages would need to enter a trancelike state where they could only concentrate enough to fire the odd wand missile.  Clerics would chant hymns and could only continue limited mace swinging.

    TLDR: All classes have Power and Stamina reserves. All abilities cost power and stamina. Stamina restricts bursting of abilities for all. All regain stamina quickly in combat. All have default attacks/defenses that don't need power/stamina. All need rest to regain power. An addition of some kind of in-combat power regain 'rest' should be made for all classes during which only default attack/defense can happen.

    I realise this is a fundamental thing for combat and would be a significant change to the EQ way, but I would love it to be considered for Pantheon.

    Even if combat design and balance has gone too far to change the way warriors work, adding an in-combat mana regen method and a default damage ability for casters would go a long way to making the experience more fun and less frustrating.

    I would love my cleric to go into a hymn chanting trance while still swinging his mace or my wizard to plant his staff before him and go into a trance while it spurts magic missiles.

    Please consider it, VR.  Casters often get the dull end of combat otherwise.  When I last played EQ (Project 99 a couple of years ago) I tried casters but settled on a Monk purely because casters are so... passive... by comparison.


    This post was edited by disposalist at January 21, 2018 7:33 AM PST
    • 3852 posts
    January 21, 2018 8:17 AM PST

    Many MMOs have some special pool of power (whatever the name) that melee fighters need to use special abilities. Much the same as magic users have power or mana.

    I agree in theory with your point that even routine fighting leads to exhaustion but since autocombat type fighting tends not to do large amounts of damage or, for a tank, be very effective at holding enemies' attention, I am not sure that a more sophisticated system for melee combat would really make a difference.

    In general I find frequent periods of resting between fights much the same as I find the need to micromanage food to avoid starving or arrows or bolts for an archer - a realistic but undesirable annoyance. 

    My first roleplaying games were dungeons and dragons and then advanced dungeons and dragons. Magic users at low level had as few as one or two spells they could cast in a day - other than that they had little to contribute to a group. The great bulk of the time they spent doing nothing. The decades since the 1970s have not persuaded me that doing nothing is one of the fun parts of a game.

     

    • 1714 posts
    January 21, 2018 9:28 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    Apologies if people think this has already been discussed, but I think previous 'medding' discussions (from a search) were more about casters having to sit during combat or meditation animations or whatever.

    I would like to address something that has bugged me in many games over the years, even pen and paper RPGs, not just computer MMORPGs: -

    Why don't warriors have to rest?

    I find appeal in all 'classes'. Over the years I've had all manner of 'avatars', but one thing that appears universal (and is universally annoying) is that magic-users have to rest (meditate) to regain power (mana) and warriors just keep swinging and swinging and swinging...

    In some games there's a 'stamina' reserve. I think Elder Scrolls Online did this well where you can even have characters that have abilities drawing from both mana and stamina reserves in a similar way, but, ironically, it was often the stamina reserve that was harder to replenish as running, for example, could run you out of your stamina reserve, where mana would replenish while running.  A running mage = good to fight. A running warrior = useless.

    So, what I am getting to is this: What I have seen so far in Pantheon streams leads me to believe it will operate pretty much like EQ did, ie. Warriors have a stamina reserver that may restrict their ability to 'burst' attacks, but they can always continue default attacks while stamina is very quickly regained.  They bascially are able to use their special combat abilities over and over for ever with no need to stop short of dying and, even when somehow low on reserves of physical power, they have 'default' combat attacks that continue.

    Casters however have a mana reserve that is exhausted as they use abilities but only returns slowly and while completely inactive. They have no 'default' attack and contribute in no way when their reserves are exhausted.

    What this leads to (and has always lead to, even in Dungeons and Dragons pen and paper) is casters not having as much to do, spending much of their time inactive and even being resented for 'slowing things down'. I have had many a group in the past that criticises casters who do anything but use their most mana effecient, directly useful spells. Even if this isn't opening voiced, as a caster you often pressure yourself to be 'efficient' in order to not slow down the progress of the group or yourself even. Lots of more 'fun' and 'utility' spells are out of consideration because there are warriors champing at the bit to start swinging at the next monster.

    Now, I fully understand and support the idea that 'downtime' encourages a good thoughtful pace of combat and allows for important social interaction and bonding.

    What I question is why warriors don't have to do the same as wizards? Even a very fit man after swinging a sword for a few minutes will be exhausted and need to rest to continue doing anything but the most basic of combat moves.

    I think there is no reason that 'power' and 'stamina' shouldn't mean exactly the same thing to both casters and sword-swingers.

    A warrior executes an ability, he spends power (physical energy reserves) and stamina (his immediate capacity to execute abilities in bursts). Until he rests, his energy reserves are spent, but his stamina returns as he just performs normal/default combat.  If he runs out of power, he can only maintain a basic/default combat output/defense.

    A mage is exactly the same, but spends magical power.  His stamina for casting in quick bursts is the same as the warrior, though that stamina has perhaps a more mental aspect, it functions identically. Resting is identical to the warrior, though is more meditative.  He should alos have a basic/default combat output (wand magic missiles, staff fire jet, whatever).

    Some warriors (monks) may be a more meditative 'rest'. It doesn't matter.

    What I would suggest, along with this approach, is an improved method of regaining power in combat. Warriors would need to perhaps sing battle songs to regain power, but obviously this would mean no use of special abilities.  Mages would need to enter a trancelike state where they could only concentrate enough to fire the odd wand missile.  Clerics would chant hymns and could only continue limited mace swinging.

    TLDR: All classes have Power and Stamina reserves. All abilities cost power and stamina. Stamina restricts bursting of abilities for all. All regain stamina quickly in combat. All have default attacks/defenses that don't need power/stamina. All need rest to regain power. An addition of some kind of in-combat power regain 'rest' should be made for all classes during which only default attack/defense can happen.

    I realise this is a fundamental thing for combat and would be a significant change to the EQ way, but I would love it to be considered for Pantheon.

    Even if combat design and balance has gone too far to change the way warriors work, adding an in-combat mana regen method and a default damage ability for casters would go a long way to making the experience more fun and less frustrating.

    I would love my cleric to go into a hymn chanting trance while still swinging his mace or my wizard to plant his staff before him and go into a trance while it spurts magic missiles.

    Please consider it, VR.  Casters often get the dull end of combat otherwise.  When I last played EQ (Project 99 a couple of years ago) I tried casters but settled on a Monk purely because casters are so... passive... by comparison.

     Go solo a mob and then tell us that they don't need to "med". Melee classes, for the most part, can't do crap without a caster to back them up. That's the tradeoff. You're making melee classes that much worse off, not only do they have another dependency that needs to be regenerated, but they're still dependent on healing from external sources. If warriors could snare, dot, root, nuke, buff run speed, teleport, etc, they should have to med. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at January 21, 2018 9:29 AM PST
    • 151 posts
    January 21, 2018 9:36 AM PST
    isn't that a pally?
    • 258 posts
    January 21, 2018 9:37 AM PST

    I sympathize, but this makes things pretty complicated in terms of balance. One of the main points to consider is that while melee rarely have to sit and rest as long as they have heals, they typically don't have anywhere near the utility that casters have, nor are they capable of the high burst damage or, typically, solo ability (melee typically aren't adept at kiting).

    To the point about casters and medding... I agree. It is a little boring, but I personally don't mind it. That being said, hopefully they will introduce a system that allows for lower mana use and more consistent damage so that casters are not just blasting something a few times then sitting for 5 minutes. One idea I had for this would be different types of channeled spell that--as long as it's active--do relatively small amounts of damage but in a very mana-efficient way. Spells like this would allow casters to maintain respectable DPS, though noticably less than melee, while allowing the caster to conserve mana for more intense situations that require high mana usage. And perhaps spells like Clarity or mana regen songs/chants would actually allow casters to slowly (very slowly) regen mana while using the aforementioned "channeled" spells, thus still able to contribute when low on mana. Then, they at least have the choice of whether to continue to dps or sit to regen more quickly.

    Just my 2c.


    This post was edited by Kaen at January 21, 2018 9:38 AM PST
    • 108 posts
    January 21, 2018 2:21 PM PST

    Play a warrior in a small group without a healer and try to tell me they didn't have to med! Often would take longer for them to heal there hp then a mage to regain mana....

    The warrior was dependent on a healer to keep the group active while an enchanter fullfilled that role for mana regen...

    With the right group balance downtime was minimal without the right group balance there could be significant downtime.

    • 633 posts
    January 21, 2018 3:55 PM PST

    I'm not trying to sound mean, but it sounds to me like you just want all classes to fit your playstyle.  There is a reason in games like this people play certain classes over the other.  They tend to pick classes with playstyles that they most enjoy.  Some people (myself included), actually enjoy the slower pace of combat that casters (including priests) have.  While I do also enjoy playing the melee type, and have in games like this, I prefer the playstyle of the casters.

    Also, if all classes had to do the same thing (just looking/sounding different), then you take something away from the differences of the classes.  This allows more options for different playstyle classes.  For example, in one of the videos the person playing the rogue was using their crowd control ability (I believe it was Smoke and Mirrors) to keep 2 mobs controlled.  It was stated that with 2 mobs controlled like this the stamina drain was just enough he could keep it up, but couldn't provide much dps.

    I like the differences and would prefer they kept them that way so that other people can enjoy the style of game they like.

    • 1860 posts
    January 21, 2018 5:49 PM PST

    Without getting into "hypothetical situation" type of details, I agree.

    Mana users requiring down time to use their abilities while non mana users require 0 down time to use their abilities, is inherently unbalanced.

    I always thought the balancing came because mana users were balanced to do more...more damage, more utility etc...so the down time is understandable.  In order to do more there needs to also be more time where they are required to do less (down time).

    The problem is that isn't always the case.  The trend has been to balance classes, sometimes, without taking downtime into consideration.


    This post was edited by philo at January 21, 2018 5:51 PM PST
    • 2756 posts
    January 22, 2018 1:38 AM PST

    Thanks for the feedback.

    It's interesting those suggesting warriors have a hard time recovering when solo or in a small group.  Uh huh.  You're describing what casters have *all the time*.  Not so much fun is it?

    It does make me think about the whole tenet of the game being balanced around a full group.

    I guess perhaps the caster medding is 'balanced' there too, as suggested by another above: if you have an enchanter type speeding mana regen and a healer speeding health regen (the only traditional restriction for a warrior), though I have to say it's an awful lot more common, even in a full group, to see casters medding rather than warriors resting, waiting for natural health regen.  In fact, that just never happened in EQ.

    As for soloing, some classes just can't really do it - this also seems to be an 'accepted' tenet and I suppose it would be impossible to fix unless you make classes self-sufficient which really ruins the whole point of games like EQ (and Pantheon of course!) to be group-based.

    So are we saying casters have to have the medding restriction for an MMORPG to be group-based?  Hmm.  Seems an over-simplified and disappointing conclusion.  Feels like lazy design, but I admit the alternatives may well be too complex or unworkable - they are too complex for me to quickly see anyway.  I wonder if VR have thought about it?  I'd love to hear their thoughts, of course!

    As I said, though: I appreciate that altering the warrior to have abilities working like caster classes do may be a huge change now, but having caster classes that are more like warriors, with default combat abilities they can use even when 'recovering' and recovery methods that aren't as uninteresting as plopping down on your arse in mid-combat? That should be pretty easy, no?


    This post was edited by disposalist at January 22, 2018 1:40 AM PST
    • 793 posts
    January 22, 2018 5:45 AM PST

    Not sure I want my groups warrior saying "I'm out of stamina, I'm going to sit, Merlin you take over tanking while I regen" :)

     

    Now I do think that the special attacks should draw from a pool, so if it gets exhausted, they must revert back to just basic attacks until it replentishes enough to use a special again.


    This post was edited by Fulton at January 22, 2018 5:48 AM PST
    • 793 posts
    January 22, 2018 5:47 AM PST

    // Double Post

     


    This post was edited by Fulton at January 22, 2018 5:48 AM PST
    • 3237 posts
    January 22, 2018 7:49 AM PST

    Resource management is a good thing for all classes, I think.  All classes used mana in EQ2 and honestly I found it to be a good mechanic that kept the warrior class engaged.  There were a lot of bosses that would sap 100% of the mana from their target (usually the tank) and it was fun playing around that; your in-group bard/enchanter would have to work over-time to keep you stocked with some form of emergency mana while you had to manage mana potion consumables, hearts and shards from necros/conjurors, manastone, etc.  If the warrior didn't have mana, they couldn't taunt or use any of their other important cooldowns.  I understand where Disposalist is coming from but I just have a different angle on it.  Resource management allows for more tactical and engaging gameplay.  I don't look at it from a balance perspective, but rather from a difficulty standpoint directly attached to combat.

    I also think that the support classes, particularly anybody who would qualify as a mana battery, would benefit from having more things to focus on.  An OOM tank is usually very high on the priority scale ... but it was always a good thing when the chanter had to make a decision on whether they would channel a little extra mana to the tank, or the healers trying to keep him alive.  In many cases, you would need multiple enchanters focusing on different players.  At the end of the day, though, warriors have to focus on managing their health a lot more consistently than casters do.  So we already have a form of resource management embedded into our class design.  As others have suggested, though, when it comes to hand-to-hand combat, I think stamina is perfectly fine, and that it should regen quite differently than an actual mana pool.  I would enjoy having to juggle both.  I am particularly interested in how colored mana will come into play.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at January 22, 2018 7:51 AM PST
    • 1785 posts
    January 22, 2018 8:50 AM PST

    In concept, I agree with the idea of melee classes having to manage a resource similar to how caster types use mana.  However, I think the mechanics of it should be different enough that it doesn't feel like "just another mana bar".  I hope that makes sense.

    However, I want to touch on WHY I think this should be a thing.  It's not about "equal downtime for all classes".  Instead it's about meaningful tactical choices in combat.  You only have so much mojo you can use and it doesn't come back super-fast, so you have to choose how and when to use that mojo.  I think this helps us get further away from the concept of "rotations" and put more emphasis on abilities that you might use situationally, or that you might have to "set up" to use.

    • 96 posts
    January 22, 2018 9:00 AM PST

    Isn't time a resource?  In most of the games I have played, cooldowns have been what non-casters need to manage, and has usually been more important than stamina.  It may not be as obvious as a mana bar, but knowing when to use a skill for maximum effectiveness is definitely key to playing these classes to their full potential.

    • 999 posts
    January 22, 2018 9:17 AM PST

    If you're using EQ as a reference, Warriors resource to manage was "HPs" more than anything else.  If you're comparing solo vs. solo, warriors had a much more difficult time managing that resource than casters.  With small groups, with the proper make-up, you could argue it would be similar speeds in recovery.  With the perfect group make-up, you could find the "sweet spot" as a group for resource recovery.  The warrior probably never being full health, and the caster never being out of mana being able to cast a few spells per fight. 

    The problem with what you're asking is it ultimately waters down class to the norm, with little class differentiation between all.

    **However** this is where I would agree with you that warriors could have a resource to manage in addition to the skillsets/auto-attack that was available in EQ.  I think if a warrior had a similar skillset to VG, but had to balance a finite resource as well with recovery times like EQ, it could "add" strategy to the class without button mashing.  Even then though, it would be a fine balance of adding to the pre-existing class structure versus adding skills that start to blend into another class and remove class interdependence.

    Examples:  Warrior has taunt/slam (little to no endurance use that can basically be continuosly cycled), but then they have a skill called angered blow that takes significantly more endurance.  Therefore, it basically allows the warrior to have more strategy within combat without bleeding into another class.  You also couldn't have the insanely fast out of combat regen for endurance though, and it would need to be similar to HP/Mana regen to not allow for soloing to be a viable alternative.

     

    • 1714 posts
    January 22, 2018 9:19 AM PST

    philo said:

    Without getting into "hypothetical situation" type of details, I agree.

    Mana users requiring down time to use their abilities while non mana users require 0 down time to use their abilities, is inherently unbalanced.

    I always thought the balancing came because mana users were balanced to do more...more damage, more utility etc...so the down time is understandable.  In order to do more there needs to also be more time where they are required to do less (down time).

    The problem is that isn't always the case.  The trend has been to balance classes, sometimes, without taking downtime into consideration.

    I'm confused by this post. Are you suggesting mana using classes have less down time than classes like the warrior? HP is a resource too, in fact it's the resource that melee classes use to be able to user their "0 down time abilities. Go regen 1000HP at 5hp/tick and then tell us that melee classes require no down time to user their abilities. 

    • 1714 posts
    January 22, 2018 9:21 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    Thanks for the feedback.

    It's interesting those suggesting warriors have a hard time recovering when solo or in a small group.  Uh huh.  You're describing what casters have *all the time*.  Not so much fun is it?

    It does make me think about the whole tenet of the game being balanced around a full group.

    I guess perhaps the caster medding is 'balanced' there too, as suggested by another above: if you have an enchanter type speeding mana regen and a healer speeding health regen (the only traditional restriction for a warrior), though I have to say it's an awful lot more common, even in a full group, to see casters medding rather than warriors resting, waiting for natural health regen.  In fact, that just never happened in EQ.

    As for soloing, some classes just can't really do it - this also seems to be an 'accepted' tenet and I suppose it would be impossible to fix unless you make classes self-sufficient which really ruins the whole point of games like EQ (and Pantheon of course!) to be group-based.

    So are we saying casters have to have the medding restriction for an MMORPG to be group-based?  Hmm.  Seems an over-simplified and disappointing conclusion.  Feels like lazy design, but I admit the alternatives may well be too complex or unworkable - they are too complex for me to quickly see anyway.  I wonder if VR have thought about it?  I'd love to hear their thoughts, of course!

    As I said, though: I appreciate that altering the warrior to have abilities working like caster classes do may be a huge change now, but having caster classes that are more like warriors, with default combat abilities they can use even when 'recovering' and recovery methods that aren't as uninteresting as plopping down on your arse in mid-combat? That should be pretty easy, no?

    You aren't addressing any of the valid feedback. You seem to completley ignore the HUGE POWER IMBALANCE that caster classes have over melee classes. This doesn't seem like a discussion, it seems like an agenda. 

    You have this completely backwards. The reason casters are required to med IS FOR BALANCE. It IS the balance. 


    This post was edited by Keno Monster at January 22, 2018 9:30 AM PST
    • 1785 posts
    January 22, 2018 9:22 AM PST

    Irriaden said:

    Isn't time a resource?  In most of the games I have played, cooldowns have been what non-casters need to manage, and has usually been more important than stamina.  It may not be as obvious as a mana bar, but knowing when to use a skill for maximum effectiveness is definitely key to playing these classes to their full potential.

    This is true, but I've also played a lot of games where "blow all your cooldowns" was a thing that people did.  So I feel like unless the cooldowns last through multiple fights, it is potentially not enough to really enforce meaningful choices during combat.

    • 1860 posts
    January 22, 2018 10:33 AM PST

    Krixus said:

     

    I'm confused by this post. Are you suggesting mana using classes have less down time than classes like the warrior? HP is a resource too, in fact it's the resource that melee classes use to be able to user their "0 down time abilities. Go regen 1000HP at 5hp/tick and then tell us that melee classes require no down time to user their abilities. 

    While balance does need to encompass all aspects to some extent, this is a group game first. 

    Are you trying to suggest that all classes should be balanced around their solo ability?  I don't think anyone thinks that but your example was about a melee class soloing and regening hp so maybe you do?  I thought it was a given that when discussing balance in Pantheon the focus would be on balance in a group scenario because, well, that is the focus of the game.

    To suggest that a Warrior having to regen hitpoints in a solo situation is comparative to a mana user having down time in a group situation seems like a misunderstanding.  These things are not equal.

    • 1860 posts
    January 22, 2018 10:50 AM PST

    Krixus said:

     

    You aren't addressing any of the valid feedback. You seem to completley ignore the HUGE POWER IMBALANCE that caster classes have over melee classes. This doesn't seem like a discussion, it seems like an agenda. 

    You have this completely backwards. The reason casters are required to med IS FOR BALANCE. It IS the balance. 

    Exactly, mana users should be required to med for balance. To restate: mana users should be more powerful than non mana users, but then be required to have downtime when they are less powerful for balance. That is assuming the down time is being taken into consideration as far as comparative power which is not always the case.

    Sometimes mana users do similar damage or have similar utility to a non mana using class who doesn't have the same down time requirement.  That is the issue.  But I already pointed that out in an earlier post /shrug. 

     


    This post was edited by philo at January 22, 2018 10:58 AM PST
    • 1714 posts
    January 22, 2018 11:15 AM PST

    philo said:

    Krixus said:

     

    I'm confused by this post. Are you suggesting mana using classes have less down time than classes like the warrior? HP is a resource too, in fact it's the resource that melee classes use to be able to user their "0 down time abilities. Go regen 1000HP at 5hp/tick and then tell us that melee classes require no down time to user their abilities. 

    While balance does need to encompass all aspects to some extent, this is a group game first. 

    Are you trying to suggest that all classes should be balanced around their solo ability?  I don't think anyone thinks that but your example was about a melee class soloing and regening hp so maybe you do?  I thought it was a given that when discussing balance in Pantheon the focus would be on balance in a group scenario because, well, that is the focus of the game.

    To suggest that a Warrior having to regen hitpoints in a solo situation is comparative to a mana user having down time in a group situation seems like a misunderstanding.  These things are not equal.

    This group only narrative is being blown hideously out of proportion. People will spend TONS of time doing things on their on or in small group. Ignoring the fact that cast classes can interact with mobs and the world without using their HP to do so is absurd. 

    • 411 posts
    January 22, 2018 11:16 AM PST

    You can take on this argument from so many different angles that I think everyone is just going to get arguments confused and not see eye to eye. I think it would be easier to break down the issue into its parts and talk about each separately.

    Realism - It doesn't make sense that a warrior could maintain consistent fighting prowess for an unlimited length of time with no rest. However, realism should be used sparingly as a rationale for game mechanics. If you can make an fun mechanic that allows some realism to come through, then that's great.

    Group balance - Groups will require downtime as determined by the whole group and the devs have stated that downtime is a desired part of extended combat sessions. A warrior will often be forced to take downtime because the rest of their group won't necessarily be able to keep up the pace. If the warrior is a resourceless class and that leads them to perform better in a group than competing tank classes, then that's when it becomes an issue for me. However, a resourceless class is certainly not necessarily stronger than a class that has a resource and they won't necessarily allow a group to reduce their downtime on the whole.

    Warrior combat - I agree with 187 on this topic. Resource management is a fun way to add depth to combat and there are tons of ways to go about implementing it. If warriors are given enough combat depth without a stamina resource, then that should be fine.

    Caster combat - It seems like one of the OP's main issues is that caster combat is too slow paced. This is surely an assumption based on select MMOs, since some MMO caster classes function at breakneck speeds. Downtime is good, but we have to have some faith in the developers that they've taken to heart some of the lessons learned since two decades ago and that we won't be bored to tears in combat. I certainly hope we won't see casters cycling between medding and casting their one best spell, but devs have said they want to stay away from the twitchy type combat we've seen in some MMOs of late.

    Solo balance - This is probably a smaller concern in a group-based game like Pantheon. Warriors could maybe restore hp faster iwhen medding though? That might not be bad.

    • 2752 posts
    January 22, 2018 11:20 AM PST

    If balancing around groups then pretty much everyone has the same downtime, you don't need to balance it class by class. Most all groups will have a healer and that healer will have mana so when they are low/out of mana the group must rest regardless, so having other casters doesn't really slow things down as long as spells are balanced well and mana regen not crazy long like EQ. A caster heavy group might end up taking more downtime but they also are likely to be killing things faster with the heavy burst dps which over time would even out exp/hr with a melee heavy group. 

     

    Making melee more like casters is a mistake to me, you homogenize the classes to where melee are just physical casters and things tend to feel very samey. Meditation/sitting between or sometimes during fights isn't terribly off-putting to me personally as I am tired of the alternative offered for the past 13ish years of nearly endless mana with massive out of combat regen and/or in-combat abilities that regen large chunks of mana which make all but the most taxing of raid fights trivial. 

     

    I don't see an issue with melee relying on endurance, a fast regenerating resource, for their abilities. They are the steady consistant DPS with small bursts when needed compared to the high burst low sustained damage of a caster. 

     

     

    • 556 posts
    January 22, 2018 11:23 AM PST

    disposalist said:

    Thanks for the feedback.

    It's interesting those suggesting warriors have a hard time recovering when solo or in a small group.  Uh huh.  You're describing what casters have *all the time*.  Not so much fun is it?

    I think you're missing a lot of the points made. Warriors can not, ever, solo. Unless said mob is very far below them in level. Warriors are completely dependant on others. There is no caster in the game that has that much of a disability. Every single caster has the ability to solo pretty effectively. 

    Warriors, or any other melee, also have much less damage per stamina in comparision to casters dmg per mana. If they were to cause stamina regen to be even remotely close to mana regen then they would have to drastically increase the dmg to stamina ratio.

    Point three, if stamina regen is reduced, then the level of downtime greatly increases. It's not a bad thing if it's already low but I find that highly doubtful. This would also effectively kill any thought of chain pulling. More than likely you'd find many dungeons where you couldn't even progress through because you simply couldn't kill enough mobs before respawns caught up to you. This is the entire reason that the best groups were always balanced between melee and casters. Casters provide higher dmg but melee could supply a constant level of sustained damage while the caster were medding. 

    For the sake of RP gameplay, your thoughts make a lot of sense. But implementing them would fundamentality change the entire game. 

    • 1860 posts
    January 22, 2018 12:28 PM PST

    Krixus said:

    This group only narrative is being blown hideously out of proportion. People will spend TONS of time doing things on their on or in small group. Ignoring the fact that cast classes can interact with mobs and the world without using their HP to do so is absurd. 

    The group only narrative isn't being blown out of proportion.  It was mentioned that all aspects of the game need to be balanced to some extent.  You just refused to acknowledge that part.  It should be understood that in a group focused game the center of balance has to start with grouping.  To dismiss that, or to think otherwise, is nonsensical. Balancing other areas of the game is a secondary priority.


    This post was edited by philo at January 22, 2018 12:29 PM PST