Forums » Crafting and Gathering

Crafting - Follow-up to January newsletter

    • 159 posts
    January 18, 2018 2:30 AM PST

    So, I just finished reading the newsletter and I for one am hyped with all the info on crafting. And now that you've piqued my curiosity, there are a couple of questions I have to ask.

    In other games I've been a rather obsessive completionist, which means that typically I'd want to max every single skill - both combat skills and crafting skills. In some games that was fine, while in others there were choices to be made, since players were prevented from maxing every single skill on the same character. Have you decided how this will work in Pantheon?

    Also, a crafting-related issue where I think Pantheon could avoid mistakes made in other games is the distribution of materials in the world. Most games simply divide materials into levels and tie a zone's level to the level of materials you can find there. While this means players will usually find materials that are relevant to their own level when going through level-appropriate zones, it also means starter areas are all but abandoned as a place to gather materials. Have you considered making higher-level recipes require low-level materials in addition to high-level ones, as well as having materials distributed throughout the world following some system other than the simple level/tier of the zone?

    Incidentally, and this is not specifically crafting-related, I would love to see a move away from pure zone levels, i.e. in a given zone you might find enemies spanning a very wide range of levels, for instance the further you move from villages/cities, or the further you descend into a cave, or the higher you climb up a mountain, with maybe some pockets of really high level enemies intended to encourage higher-level players to come back to starter areas.

    • 839 posts
    January 18, 2018 2:48 AM PST

    I was thinking about what you mentioned with ingredients for high level crafting still needing items that typically would be found in low level areas.  And then i was thinking about people high levels clearing a newbie zone so they could get all the bat wings or whatever it may be, this may lead to a bit of annoyance with newbies finding it hard to hunt because of materials being farmed on mobs... could you have a system where if your a certain level above a mob there is a chance you obliterate the crafting material, so this encourages people to buy from low levels instead of just round em up and knock em down.  I am not a fan of just saying well because your x levels above somthing (or its grey) it doesnt drop anything... but maybe a chance to obliterate adds some realism or whatever to the concept.

    Not a big crafter here myself so I am weighing in way out of my depth of knowledge.

    All for 100% even playing field no matter level on fishing spots, woodchopping etc (barring skill levels of course), so this only refers to the materials that would be typically found on mobs.

     

    Big +1 for wide ranging level mobs in zones!

    • 470 posts
    January 18, 2018 3:15 AM PST

    To answer the first question: interdependency. The devs want the crafting professions much like the grouping to have a level of interdependency, which means that each crafter will probably need a number of things from another crafting profession (possibly multiple ones). Since the crafting has been hinted at as being something akin to Vanguard but with no specifics as to how much, you can probably expect something like armorsmiths needing padding from leatherworkers for some armors as one example. I am unsure if it's been confirmed yet (I think it has but will have to hunt down where I might have read or heard it to see), but I think it's safe to say that you will have only one major tradeskill per character. So that will probably help a bit in terms to the question about maxing all of your crafting skills as you won't be able to.

    On crafting items, it's not unreasonable to think that there will be some parts that require low grade mats as well as high in combination to make.

    On that last question:

    • Incidentally, and this is not specifically crafting-related, I would love to see a move away from pure zone levels, i.e. in a given zone you might find enemies spanning a very wide range of levels, for instance the further you move from villages/cities, or the further you descend into a cave, or the higher you climb up a mountain, with maybe some pockets of really high level enemies intended to encourage higher-level players to come back to starter areas.

    I think there will always be to some extent level funneling to zones. However, it doesn't always have to be, nor always is in some cases, be for one level range or the other only. In some cases there are multiple types of varying level content in some zones. But there does need to be a format to avoid lowbie massacres.

    I'm not sure if you're new to Pantheon or missed out on playing EverQuest, which these guys had their finger in too as it was the brain child of Brad McQuaid, but in that, and to some extent it's been confirmed for here as well, you will see higher level mobs in lower level zones from time to time. We've all been kind of happy to hear about that when it comes up around here as many of us have some good stories from EQ regarding a certain griffon and hill giant in the East and West Commonlands outside of Freeport. 

    The first mage I ever made met his death at the hands of that hill giant. I was still fairly new to that side of the world (and a bit of the game really). I made a little mage, leveled up to about 5 or 6 and headed out to explore. Let my curiosity get the better of me. Waltzed a zone too far and was just looking around on a hillside when I heard it. ~Boom (more like zerch), Boom, Boom. I look around, nothing. I turn around and there are 2 big beady eyes headed up the hill. I figure my only chance is to make a run for it as my lil level 5 mage isn't going to take a lvl 30 or so Hill Giant.

    I head for the zone line but my little legs aren't fast enough. I'm not gonna make it. Sorry elemental pet, you gotta take one for the team. I send him at the giant as I run towards the zone line (poor guy was flattened in half a giant's stride). Almost there...almost there...I can see the zone line and CRUNCH. Hill giant stepped right on me. Poor mage was gone on the screen, not even a corpse. But legend says if you go to the commonlands on a quiet night and listen carefully that you can still here the agonizing grunts of the poor mage who is now forever embeded into the giant's boot as he grunts in pain with each passing step.

    I just let that poor mage die perma at that point. It's how he would have wanted to go.

    GU comics actually has a brilliant comic that could serve as a perfect reenactment of his final moments.

    http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2000/gu_20000714.jpg

    Now that story I just told you was true. And while I've had some great times in several MMORPGs since. I can't really think of a single story like that that just sticks in my head like some of the ones fromEverQuest. And that was one of the magical charms of EverQuest, and what we hope to experience again in Pantheon. ;)


    This post was edited by Kratuk at January 18, 2018 5:58 PM PST
    • 2886 posts
    January 18, 2018 3:54 AM PST

    daemonios said:

    In other games I've been a rather obsessive completionist, which means that typically I'd want to max every single skill - both combat skills and crafting skills. In some games that was fine, while in others there were choices to be made, since players were prevented from maxing every single skill on the same character. Have you decided how this will work in Pantheon?

    "As far as what professions are concerned, we're considering the following as our professions: Alchemist, Blacksmith, Woodworker, Outfitter, Provisioner, Stonemason, and Scribe. Each profession will have a specialization. Players will be limited to one profession, and one associated specialization."

    (Source: http://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/crafting_and_harvesting/ ;)

    So you won't be able to do that on the same character, but of course you're free to make as many alts as it takes to reach max level on every skill.

    daemonios said:

    Also, a crafting-related issue where I think Pantheon could avoid mistakes made in other games is the distribution of materials in the world. Most games simply divide materials into levels and tie a zone's level to the level of materials you can find there. While this means players will usually find materials that are relevant to their own level when going through level-appropriate zones, it also means starter areas are all but abandoned as a place to gather materials. Have you considered making higher-level recipes require low-level materials in addition to high-level ones, as well as having materials distributed throughout the world following some system other than the simple level/tier of the zone?

    Yeah they thought of that too :) Since harvesting nodes will be based on the ecology of the zone, rather than the level of mobs in it, there will be a wide range of crafting material "tiers" available in any given zone:

    "Rather than providing harvesting opportunities by perceived difficulty of a zone or the content around it, we'll be placing them where they naturally make the most sense."

    (Source: http://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/crafting_and_harvesting/ ;)

    daemonios said:

    Incidentally, and this is not specifically crafting-related, I would love to see a move away from pure zone levels, i.e. in a given zone you might find enemies spanning a very wide range of levels, for instance the further you move from villages/cities, or the further you descend into a cave, or the higher you climb up a mountain, with maybe some pockets of really high level enemies intended to encourage higher-level players to come back to starter areas.

    Yes, that will definitely be the case in Pantheon. They talked about it in the Dec '16 stream here: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/106324515?t=20m16s

    You may also be interested in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/3860/zone-content-should-have-a-wide-level-range/view/page/2


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at January 18, 2018 4:02 AM PST
    • 483 posts
    January 18, 2018 4:06 AM PST

    Are professions getting skill level restricion like normal skills?

    I.e. you can only advance past blacksmith lvl 100 if you're over lvl 35 for example. to avoid having lvl 1 alts with a maxed out profession to balance out the economy and keep the interdependance a main feature of crafting?

    • 9115 posts
    January 18, 2018 4:08 AM PST

    Moved to the Crafting subforum.

    • 556 posts
    January 18, 2018 8:45 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    Are professions getting skill level restricion like normal skills?

    I.e. you can only advance past blacksmith lvl 100 if you're over lvl 35 for example. to avoid having lvl 1 alts with a maxed out profession to balance out the economy and keep the interdependance a main feature of crafting?

    This would be fine with me if, and only if, we can get all crafting skills on our mains. If we can only have 1 crafting skill on a main then I want to be able to feed mats to my lvl 1 alts so i can lvl every craft without having to level 5-6 toons. 

    • 1778 posts
    January 18, 2018 9:10 AM PST

    Must become a master of fishing!

    • 2752 posts
    January 18, 2018 11:06 AM PST

    jpedrote said:

    Are professions getting skill level restricion like normal skills?

    I.e. you can only advance past blacksmith lvl 100 if you're over lvl 35 for example. to avoid having lvl 1 alts with a maxed out profession to balance out the economy and keep the interdependance a main feature of crafting?

     

    I certainly hope they are level restricted (at least to some degree) to avoid master craftsman alts. 

    • 105 posts
    January 18, 2018 11:30 AM PST

    Enitzu said:

    jpedrote said:

    Are professions getting skill level restricion like normal skills?

    I.e. you can only advance past blacksmith lvl 100 if you're over lvl 35 for example. to avoid having lvl 1 alts with a maxed out profession to balance out the economy and keep the interdependance a main feature of crafting?

    This would be fine with me if, and only if, we can get all crafting skills on our mains. If we can only have 1 crafting skill on a main then I want to be able to feed mats to my lvl 1 alts so i can lvl every craft without having to level 5-6 toons. 

    I think that would be very unlikely, if you want a max level craft then you need a max level character. Cooperative play is one of the tenants, if you can do everything yourself you wouldn't need others... I hope that it is very hard and time consuming to get max level in a single craft as that would encourage constant reliance on others and a vibrant trading experience. 

    Edit - It has been stated by the devs that you can only have one crafting skill per character.


    This post was edited by Kipling at January 18, 2018 11:32 AM PST
    • 556 posts
    January 18, 2018 12:41 PM PST

    Kipling said:

    Enitzu said:

    jpedrote said:

    Are professions getting skill level restricion like normal skills?

    I.e. you can only advance past blacksmith lvl 100 if you're over lvl 35 for example. to avoid having lvl 1 alts with a maxed out profession to balance out the economy and keep the interdependance a main feature of crafting?

    This would be fine with me if, and only if, we can get all crafting skills on our mains. If we can only have 1 crafting skill on a main then I want to be able to feed mats to my lvl 1 alts so i can lvl every craft without having to level 5-6 toons. 

    I think that would be very unlikely, if you want a max level craft then you need a max level character. Cooperative play is one of the tenants, if you can do everything yourself you wouldn't need others... I hope that it is very hard and time consuming to get max level in a single craft as that would encourage constant reliance on others and a vibrant trading experience. 

    Edit - It has been stated by the devs that you can only have one crafting skill per character.

    Cooperative play doesn't mean you can't be self reliant when it comes to crafting/gathering. If they do put lvl caps on crafting then I will adjust accordingly but I don't see it happening. That does exactly what they have always said they don't want which is limitations on the player. 

    • 105 posts
    January 18, 2018 12:44 PM PST

    jpedrote said:

    Are professions getting skill level restricion like normal skills?

    I.e. you can only advance past blacksmith lvl 100 if you're over lvl 35 for example. to avoid having lvl 1 alts with a maxed out profession to balance out the economy and keep the interdependance a main feature of crafting?



    Crafters will have their own crafting experience track, separate from Adventuring. So you could, in theory, be a level 1 Adventurer and a level 50 Crafter. Skill advancements will likely be capped per level just like Adventuring. In your example of getting skill 100 Blacksmithing, you'd only be concerned with being level 20+ in Crafting experience. I hope that clears it up a bit for you, and thank you for the question :)

    • 105 posts
    January 18, 2018 12:59 PM PST

    daemonios said:

    Also, a crafting-related issue where I think Pantheon could avoid mistakes made in other games is the distribution of materials in the world. Most games simply divide materials into levels and tie a zone's level to the level of materials you can find there. While this means players will usually find materials that are relevant to their own level when going through level-appropriate zones, it also means starter areas are all but abandoned as a place to gather materials. Have you considered making higher-level recipes require low-level materials in addition to high-level ones, as well as having materials distributed throughout the world following some system other than the simple level/tier of the zone?

    Incidentally, and this is not specifically crafting-related, I would love to see a move away from pure zone levels, i.e. in a given zone you might find enemies spanning a very wide range of levels, for instance the further you move from villages/cities, or the further you descend into a cave, or the higher you climb up a mountain, with maybe some pockets of really high level enemies intended to encourage higher-level players to come back to starter areas.



    Hi, daemonios - thanks for the feedback and questions.

    I believe the others in the thread have covered most of your questions already, but I wanted to highlight this point with higher-level recipes using lower-level materials. The tl;dr is that there are common resources from most harvesting nodes, like coal, plant fibers, saps, etc that will be useful in crafting, regardless of the end item being created. A goal of ours is that "Higher-level" recipes will require more of those common items, so expect those items to retain relevance. 

    • 2756 posts
    January 18, 2018 1:34 PM PST

    If I understand correctly, there will be multiple resource types needed for each crafting profession.  An alchemist may require gems from mining, blood from skinning and herbs from gathering, for example.

    How many resource collecting skills will be allowed for one character?

    I understand how much 'fun' it can be to interact and have interdependencies for crafting, but I also have found it, in other games, sometimes extremely painful to be reliant on others' in order to pursue my chosen craft.

    What can alleviate that pain is if most or even some basic crafting resources in each tier are purchasable...

    • 18 posts
    January 18, 2018 2:00 PM PST

    Ceythos said:

     

    ......So you could, in theory, be a level 1 Adventurer and a level 50 Crafter. .....

     

    Did we just see a glimpse of the max level?  I kid, but no....seriously...did we? lol

    • 2752 posts
    January 18, 2018 2:49 PM PST

    Well then. I guess we will see tons of level 1 master craftsman alts with an adventuring main feeding each all the materials and using them as expanded banks. 

    • 2886 posts
    January 18, 2018 3:06 PM PST

    disposalist said:

    If I understand correctly, there will be multiple resource types needed for each crafting profession.  An alchemist may require gems from mining, blood from skinning and herbs from gathering, for example.

    How many resource collecting skills will be allowed for one character?

    I understand how much 'fun' it can be to interact and have interdependencies for crafting, but I also have found it, in other games, sometimes extremely painful to be reliant on others' in order to pursue my chosen craft.

    What can alleviate that pain is if most or even some basic crafting resources in each tier are purchasable...

    Agreed. It will indeed be as you hoped. All players will have access to all harvesting abilities:

    "Our line of thinking in terms of access to harvesting is that all players will be able utilize all of the available skills as they wish, provided they have an appropriate harvesting tool. All material types will already be coming from Salvaging and looting materials directly from NPCs, so limiting players’ access to individual skills felt arbitrary."

    And you will be able to purchase some basic ingredients too if you wish:

    "While the idea certainly isn't a new one, we will also have some crafting components sold only in specific cities. Many of these local materials will tie directly in with cultural based recipes. For example, special glass making materials might be found with the Dark Myr, so if players want to craft the Myr type of glass items they have to have the faction to buy the items there or find another player that has the faction that’s willing to sell them the materials from there."

    (Source for both: http://pantheonmmo.com/newsletter/crafting_and_harvesting/ )


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at January 18, 2018 3:12 PM PST
    • 1785 posts
    January 18, 2018 3:13 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Well then. I guess we will see tons of level 1 master craftsman alts with an adventuring main feeding each all the materials and using them as expanded banks. 

    I think this depends on how easy it is to transfer items between two characters on the same account.  It does not have to be easy :)

    • 105 posts
    January 18, 2018 3:54 PM PST

    Iksar said:

    Well then. I guess we will see tons of level 1 master craftsman alts with an adventuring main feeding each all the materials and using them as expanded banks. 

    I'm not sure I'm a fan of this... Everyone will have a main that goes out slaying dragons and gathering mats and then just send the mats to the relevant level 1 crafting alt. So much for needing to interact with others, if I'm a blacksmith and need leather padding for armour I'll just get it from my leatherworker alt instead of a real person. Of course we don't have to choose to do this but if this is the way it works I can see most people doing this... Unless we have limited character slots or there is a way to stop it... Early days I know, just my thoughts...

    • 2752 posts
    January 18, 2018 4:03 PM PST

    Nephele said:

    Iksar said:

    Well then. I guess we will see tons of level 1 master craftsman alts with an adventuring main feeding each all the materials and using them as expanded banks. 

    I think this depends on how easy it is to transfer items between two characters on the same account.  It does not have to be easy :)

    If you have even one friend it won't be too hard though. Also they have said you can drop items on the ground so the old EQ transfer will always work. 

     

    I think requiring crafters to use crafting stations in increasingly dangerous areas as they level crafting might work to stop it though. Sure you COULD be level 1 in your main class but you'd need a player escort sooner than later and eventually you'd need a group escort. 

    • 1785 posts
    January 18, 2018 4:08 PM PST

    Kipling said:

    Iksar said:

    Well then. I guess we will see tons of level 1 master craftsman alts with an adventuring main feeding each all the materials and using them as expanded banks. 

    I'm not sure I'm a fan of this... Everyone will have a main that goes out slaying dragons and gathering mats and then just send the mats to the relevant level 1 crafting alt. So much for needing to interact with others, if I'm a blacksmith and need leather padding for armour I'll just get it from my leatherworker alt instead of a real person. Of course we don't have to choose to do this but if this is the way it works I can see most people doing this... Unless we have limited character slots or there is a way to stop it... Early days I know, just my thoughts...

    I play a game right now that gives us 8 character slots per server.  Each character has plenty of main inventory space and plenty of "bank" space available to them.  There's also an in-game mail system and guild storage.

    With me so far?  Sounds like a recipe for no one needing anyone else, right?

    In actuality:

    - Players can only mail characters that are on their friends list.  You can only put a character on your friends list if they're online at the same time as you.  Thus, no alts on your friends list, and thus no mail to alts.

    - Trades between characters are limited to five items at a time, and obviously both chracters must be online to trade.

    - You can't drop stuff in the world with one character and then pick it up with another.

    - Guild storage has very limited space.  In most active guilds, it's constantly full.  While you might be able to transfer one or two items between characters at a time this way, transferring large quantities would be very time consuming to do unless you had a guild that was *only* your characters

    My point is that while it's still technically possible for players to use multiple characters as "mules", it is so painful and time-consuming to do so that the vast majority of people don't even try.  Sure, there are some people out there who build a guild with all 8 of their own characters so that they can move items back and forth and so on... but they are less than 0.1% of the playerbase.  There's maybe a handful of those people on each server.

    You can never make something completely impossible.  If people are dead-set on finding a way to not have to rely on other players at all, they'll find that way.  Whether that's maintaining 12 separate accounts or forming guilds with just their alts or whatever.  But, you can certainly make it so that people have to go to extreme lengths if they want to do that sort of thing, without overly penalizing everyone else.

     

    • 105 posts
    January 19, 2018 12:19 AM PST

    Well hopefully things will be put into place of a similar nature, a vibrant crafting and trading experience is such in important part for me! 

    • 174 posts
    January 19, 2018 8:37 AM PST

    For those that worry about a lack of dependence. I tend to be one of those crafting "obsessives" and will max out my alts eventually. I still buy from lower level crafters all the time, even when I can make materials myself. Why? There is only so much game time available. Would I rather be tailroing a fine robe for a high level wizard or spending it making swatchs of cloth? Of course if the lowbies have decided to gouge the higher ups on materials then I'll set to making lower level materials myself, but I'd far rather be doing other things...

    • 26 posts
    January 19, 2018 8:52 AM PST

    I have a suggestion for the skinning skill. I think it would be cool if when you are using the skinning skill it is based in the skill you have with that type of animal or mob. In other words you will need to have skill on mammals, amphibian, and insects or what ever types of mob in this game.

      You may be great at skinning and butchering mammals but then if you try to skin/butcher a large insect like a huge wasp then your results would not return much of anything good.

     I could imagine parts of the exoskeleton could be use for making armor; the venom sac could be used in poison making, and the stinger could be used in fishing.

    The main thing is, I think the skinning skill needs to have more requirements then just a knife and some skill of skinning rabbits.

     

    Just my 2CP


    This post was edited by Lovethemdead at January 19, 2018 9:33 AM PST
    • 2752 posts
    January 19, 2018 10:55 AM PST

    Eh, I don't think skinning differs enough between animal types to require separate tools or skill leveling. You can skin reptiles and mammals pretty much the same way, amphibians and giant insects I imagine would be more of the harvesting blood/organs and/or exoskeleton than trying to get a hide.