I found one post about dyes, but that was an old thread focused more in the direction of crafting, so I thought I would start a new thread to discuss whether or not people think dyes should be included. Also, I thought I would see what people's opinions are for emblems, too.
First of all, my preference would be to include armor dyes. (No weapon dyes.) It was one of the things I really liked about DAoC. UO also had a system for this that I think it worked pretty well.
I wouldn't want to see anything absurd though. If people want to make some funky color scheme for their character, that's fine with me, but I'd prefer that people weren't running around with bright lime green plate armor, for example. I felt that that extreme negatively affected the game's realism and immersion.
One thing I disliked about EQ was that at level 50 most people looked the same. My enchanter looked like every other enchanter because we all had the same gear (same robes and all that). It made me feel like a clone.
I will say that I did like being able to glimpse someone and know exactly what gear they were wearing, but I feel like dyes wouldn't greatly affect this if the art designs for the gear are done well. Just my opinion though.
Another thing I liked about DAoC was that cloaks and shields could be given guild emblems (guilds could create their own emblems via unique color schemes plus an icon).
Dyes and emblems went hand-in-hand with each other fairly well, and it allowed a good bit of diversity between characters of the same level / gear.
These are a couple things I would like to see, but I wouldn't complain if they weren't implemented. Just wanted to see what everyone's thoughts are on the subject.
I liked the early EQ dye system. I agree that it made for more diversity so you didn't look like every other character of the same race, class and level.
I don't know how much burden emblems put on the game client, but if it were a choice between game performance and custom guild logos, I know where my choice would be.
Related to this is the discussion around cosmetic gear.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5773/why-cosmetic-gear-more-harm-than-good
Kaen said:One thing I disliked about EQ was that at level 50 most people looked the same. My enchanter looked like every other enchanter because we all had the same gear (same robes and all that). It made me feel like a clone.
Yes, and I hope this is something we can avoid. Maybe they'll have appreance gear after you get past level 25 or something so then people can start setting the "look" of their character. I am with you though, I hate seeing everyone look the same. It's boring.
Celandor said:I liked the early EQ dye system. I agree that it made for more diversity so you didn't look like every other character of the same race, class and level.
I don't know how much burden emblems put on the game client, but if it were a choice between game performance and custom guild logos, I know where my choice would be.
Related to this is the discussion around cosmetic gear.
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5773/why-cosmetic-gear-more-harm-than-good
http://i.imgur.com/yRzBmsp.jpg
I always thought it was pretty neat to see guild groups running around together, and even from afar being able to tell which guild just based on their emblems. It also gave guilds a heavy presence when raiding or having 1 or more groups together in certain areas. Just kind of a cool immersion thing imo.
Anistosoles said:LOTRO has a great system for altering your appearance, and they did it in a way that kept to the look and feel of the game. Something similar in PROTF would be alright by me, even if it is done at a later date.
There may be dyes but I personally hope not and it would seem somewhat antithetical to their stated goal for item identity.
Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired.
It's much harder to have memorable items with any real personality/identity in a system that has dying available. In EQ (before dyes) you knew most of the armors from a distance and there was certainly a "wow" factor when you'd see someone in full Rubicite armor or class specific Plane raid gear. If you wanted to craft a specific look for your character you had to gather the items with the look/colors you wanted; If you want a black breastplate then go earn it one way or another.
Iksar said:There may be dyes but I personally hope not and it would seem somewhat antithetical to their stated goal for item identity.
Our desire to bring back the value and personality of items drives our item design. This means that the frequency of upgrades will be slower and when you do get a new piece of gear not only will the experience be memorable but so will the item. We want you to collect your items and be able to remember their names. When you get that epic item or rare drop after an incredible dungeon crawl, we want you to be in awe of what you have accomplished and the reward that came from it. Items will be memorable, deserved, cherished, and desired.
It's much harder to have memorable items with any real personality/identity in a system that has dying available. In EQ (before dyes) you knew most of the armors from a distance and there was certainly a "wow" factor when you'd see someone in full Rubicite armor or class specific Plane raid gear. If you wanted to craft a specific look for your character you had to gather the items with the look/colors you wanted; If you want a black breastplate then go earn it one way or another.
Kaen said:I understand. Part of me feels that way too, so it wouldn't break my heart to have no dye system. My only issue with this is that often times, at least from my EQ experience, the best-in-slot items didn't go together well at all. Casters, for the most part, looked decent enough because you mainly just saw robes, but most melee looked like a Picasso. But the items were certainly recognizable.
I believe that is where we have the appearance armor tab & toggle come into play.
Iksar said:Kaen said:I understand. Part of me feels that way too, so it wouldn't break my heart to have no dye system. My only issue with this is that often times, at least from my EQ experience, the best-in-slot items didn't go together well at all. Casters, for the most part, looked decent enough because you mainly just saw robes, but most melee looked like a Picasso. But the items were certainly recognizable.
I believe that is where we have the appearance armor tab & toggle come into play.
Appearance gear was beat to death in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2126/appearance-gear-and-weapons which is now locked due to the heated debate. The most likely solution that was discussed in that thread was a toggle.
ESO has a decent dye system imo that allows for some nice color customization of armor (only reason I mention it is it happens to be what I am playing until beta access in Protf) but I remember most armor dye systems being pretty well done in most games over the years, and I think VR might surprise us a little.
What I like about the ESO dye system is each armor pc has 1-3 color options/slots and you can choose to quickly make each pc all one color, or take your time and experiement in finer detail to fully customize your own personal look. You can have a chest plate be all blue for instance, or blue main, with red trim and silver borderings if you choose, whatever you like
Ideas I would like to see? Gradient coloring in metal armor would be really cool imo, having armor that starts black at the bottom or at the edges and goes to a blue then to silver in the center of each armor pc, like doing the edges of the armor in heat-tempered blue for instance:
or other heat-induced colors for weapons and armor like this:
Could also have weapons and armor made with different metal textures/finishes, shiny, matte finish, ball peened chest plate, antique'd or cracked look for armors... sky's the limit with ideas. Would be nice to have the common color palette to choose from at the start maybe and move to more rare dyes/colors, to really rare dye shades and hues re: dye recipes, rarity of ingredients etc. by exploring, questing etc
edit - gradient coloring for metals would be blacksmithing custom work, but the same idea could also apply to clothworking tradeskillers, woodworkers/leatherworkers making custom colored bow and matching quiver sets, armor and clothing sets etc
Raidan said:Appearance gear was beat to death in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2126/appearance-gear-and-weapons which is now locked due to the heated debate. The most likely solution that was discussed in that thread was a toggle.
Honestly I'd just like really nice armor designs first. EQ1 had limited graphics in classic, and after the new models went in the artists went from 'less is more' to 'FILL ALL THE NEGATIVE SPACE WITH TWIRLY CRAP'. I see the trend towards overcomplicated detailing in a lot of games.
I do like there being a select few items that you have to manually dye with specific ingredients. EQ1's system was quite nice just because you knew how much work went into a full dyed set of FP armor, and the system with color extracts was interesting. Did not like needing only a rogue or shaman to make the color extracts, though, as those don't require a specialist to make IRL. As for the results, sometimes they looked pretty bad because the color went on top of the base color, leading to some really weird color mixing.
FFXIV has a system where only parts of your armor can be dyed while other colors are preserved, which I think is interesting but kind of stifling if you're trying to change something that's got a pink element but the pink element doesn't get changed, for example. My friends and I are occasionally frustrated when we want a certain color but then an unchangeable element clashes so we have to scrap the idea.
As long as the armor at all levels is consistently realistic in shape and the various pieces not garish when combined, I could live with or without dyes and cosmetics
That's the reason I tend to use cosmetic layers in every game I play: High level armor pieces are "better" because they are BIGGER... Giant skulls for shoulders and silly stuff like that
Higher quality armor IRL is made from lighter and stronger materials, allowing for more protection with greater flexibility and mobility
In several games I have saved the original armor from the tutorial and the next few levels so I could transmute the pile-o-scraps end-game armor into something that didn't make me look like a space robot samurai
Many have adamantly decried any cosmetics because they don't want to see any more bikini clad warriors (fully agreed,) but a cosmetic system that auto-toggled off in un-safe areas would solve that issue... along with the devs promising to never introduce bikinis (or horse-heads, or pumpkin-heads, or clown suits... etc) as cosmetics... If we are serious about building a world, not just a game, it seems what one wears into battle should look like armor and what one wears out of battle should still look like something someone in Terminus would actually be wearing
Cosmetics and dyes can be a huge part of the in-game economy if well implemented, and they can also serve as great currency sinks and excellent real-money sources for VR, but I really hope cosmetics in Pantheon never go down the road of allowing players to break immersion for everyone else by feeding that need in some to look like idiots
I'm take it or leave it on the dyes. Frankly, I hope there are enough options for gear out there that having to dye your armor to look different from your peers isn't even needed. But if it is in the game, that'd be cool, too. Something simple, nothing crazy. If nothing else, dyes were a good crafting item that other players could create - LOTRO did that very well.
Guild emblems were pretty darn cool, though. I'm KINDA against emblems that are completely player made - at least without a /petition before their unveiling, much like you'd have to do with weird surnames in EQ. I don't want to run around and see, "PWND" as someone's guild emblem. However, I always did like the way EQ2 did it on cloaks. Seeing a big group of your guildmates all with the same emblem on their cloak was a pretty impressive sight.
Tralyan said:Guild emblems were pretty darn cool, though. I'm KINDA against emblems that are completely player made - at least without a /petition before their unveiling, much like you'd have to do with weird surnames in EQ. I don't want to run around and see, "PWND" as someone's guild emblem. However, I always did like the way EQ2 did it on cloaks. Seeing a big group of your guildmates all with the same emblem on their cloak was a pretty impressive sight.
When Dye's were added to EQ, it was heart breaking. Being a purple cleric set you apart, not from an egotistic standpoint, but as an experienced Cleric (or certainly in the early days!!). Same with the expansions, having armour sets throughout the series really helped show the progression of your character.
This is super important in a game, thats heavily focus'ed on itemisation.
So I'm against dyes for that reason! :)
Tirm said:When Dye's were added to EQ, it was heart breaking. Being a purple cleric set you apart, not from an egotistic standpoint, but as an experienced Cleric (or certainly in the early days!!). Same with the expansions, having armour sets throughout the series really helped show the progression of your character.
This is super important in a game, thats heavily focus'ed on itemisation.
So I'm against dyes for that reason! :)
I understand the point of view, but for some it was heart breaking to finally get some powerful planes armor and realise it made you look like a ridiculous grape.
Getting new powerful treasure that you feel makes you look ridiculous is the absolute worst. Dyes (and appearance slots) let you mitigate that.
Also many folks do not want others to know exactly what they are wearing at a glance and don't want to take part in the showing off.
Like I say; I understand both sides and I don't think either is 'right'. Neither is 'wrong'.
VR have said there will not be outlandish cash shop costumes. That's the important thing.
As for a toggle that let's you turn dyes/appearance items off (mentioned by others, not Tirm).... let's not get into that argument again. It's not a compromise that works.
Tirm said:When Dye's were added to EQ, it was heart breaking. Being a purple cleric set you apart, not from an egotistic standpoint, but as an experienced Cleric (or certainly in the early days!!). Same with the expansions, having armour sets throughout the series really helped show the progression of your character.
This is super important in a game, thats heavily focus'ed on itemisation.
So I'm against dyes for that reason! :)
Hi Tirm. I can certainly see what you mean. I agree I also think itemisation will be heavily focused in Terminus. Imagine all the different swords, armors. The wait is sure exciting! :)
i know most player like that sort of stuff but i personally dont like it. Even if the crafter sell that armour cheap with better stats i would still buy an expensive armour that have crappy stats from npc just because he/she put their name, logo, or other madness they spawn with imagination in their mind on said equipment. When i craft i dont add any logo, names, etc i stick to the stock item integrity for lore sake.
Armour name Glory Plate Mail at the bottom right corner you see made by "Mybootupyours" or any character nonsense names
Spike Platium Helmet made by guild "Bladetoyourback"
...NO THANKS.
Edited: This also goes for dying colors aswell.
