Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Interested in any plans for the dreaded "end game"

    • 18 posts
    December 6, 2017 10:33 AM PST

    Hope this is not a repeat, but I'm one who really dislikes how most MMOs now put total emphasis on getting to max level as fast as possible. End game to me is what destroys most MMOs these days as it usually consists of banging your head against the same raid over and over for a chance at gear or just doing constant daily quests for rep or something. These things become boring real fast. I enjoy the journey, exploration and social aspects of games. It's one of the reasons I'm so looking forward to Pantheon! I don't know what the cap will be on levels but I hope it takes about 5 years to get there...

    • 63 posts
    December 6, 2017 11:02 AM PST

    I didn't do a search, but I'm guessing there have been quite a few discussions on this topic. Regardless, I think it does merit as much discussion as possible. :)

    I certainly agree that ttaining max level and acquiring raid gear shouldn't be all there is to end-game content. I'm certain Pantheon will have several really cool high level dungeons, like in EQ, where you can adventure and get loot that is comparable (or close to it) to raid loot, albeit far less common. Clickys, weight reduction bags, all that sort of stuff. 

    Anyway, I'm going to ponder over some ideas and maybe browse other similar threads... Hopefully this thread will still be open when I return :p

    • 1206 posts
    December 6, 2017 11:03 AM PST

    Hello. 

     

    There are a number of threads in the past about end game and leveling speed etc. The forum search is a little unwieldy but here are a couple:

     

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5098/end-game-discussion-raiding-and-alternatives

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2037/how-long-should-level-1-take

     

    • 18 posts
    December 6, 2017 11:09 AM PST

    Very helpful. Thanks! I put "end game" in the search and found nothing. 

    • 2695 posts
    December 6, 2017 11:10 AM PST

    From the FAQ:

    9.2 What do you envision the ‘End Game’ scene to be like? Classic style, with inherently difficult raids? Or more contemporary with many different levels of difficulty? Do you guys plan on raiding at all?

    We're trying to avoid the term 'End Game' because it has evolved into something far different than what it literally means. In some games, the perception that the true game, the ‘fun’ game, doesn’t begin until the 'end game' came to exist. The reason why isn't super important and varies depending on the game but with Pantheon you won’t be compelled to rush to the final levels.

    First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. Also, there is no reason why we couldn't have, say, level 20 or level 30 raids. In other words, there is nothing magical or special at the final levels that somehow allows you to experience an aspect of Pantheon that was previously hidden. That is not the case. We want the game to be fun and adventurous, finding skills and items throughout your entire experience from low to max level. Lastly, we will be launching expansions frequently enough to keep ahead of most players and raising the level cap as necessary.

    Also see these threads:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/search?query=endgame&type=forum_topic&submit=

    P.S. The max level will be 50 at launch.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at December 6, 2017 11:22 AM PST
    • 18 posts
    December 6, 2017 11:23 AM PST

    I like the sound of that Baz!

    • 63 posts
    December 6, 2017 1:47 PM PST

    You should also look into the Progeny system. I don't think they've really released many details about it yet or said for sure whether or not it will actually be in game, but I think it could be an excellent alternative to simply resigning to raiding at max level.

    You can view the remaining unlocked thread here:

    http://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2870/progeny-system/view/page/1

    I submitted my proposal on Page 2. I think something along those lines would allow people a pretty neat, fun alternative to raiding/farming, but it also would not exclude raiders from utilizing that system. They may simply choose to utilize it after they've finished most of the things there are to do at max level. It also could keep max level content from becoming too overpopulated and would give new players a chance to group with more experienced players who can help them in various ways.

    (For further discussion of the Progeny system, please do it through the topic in the link!) :)

    • 503 posts
    December 7, 2017 8:20 AM PST

    Bazgrim said:

    From the FAQ:

    9.2 What do you envision the ‘End Game’ scene to be like? Classic style, with inherently difficult raids? Or more contemporary with many different levels of difficulty? Do you guys plan on raiding at all?

    We're trying to avoid the term 'End Game' because it has evolved into something far different than what it literally means. In some games, the perception that the true game, the ‘fun’ game, doesn’t begin until the 'end game' came to exist. The reason why isn't super important and varies depending on the game but with Pantheon you won’t be compelled to rush to the final levels.

    First, even if you could rush to maximum level, you would be incredibly ill-equipped to handle high-end combat. Because you found some way to rush (perhaps a bug, etc.) your character won't have what it needs to do well at the higher levels. Second, most content in Pantheon will be designed around grouping, with smaller amounts designed for soloing and raiding. Pantheon is not primarily a raiding game, though we know many in our community enjoy raiding. Same with soloing -- it is not Pantheon's focus, but some people like to solo occasionally. Also, there is no reason why we couldn't have, say, level 20 or level 30 raids. In other words, there is nothing magical or special at the final levels that somehow allows you to experience an aspect of Pantheon that was previously hidden. That is not the case. We want the game to be fun and adventurous, finding skills and items throughout your entire experience from low to max level. Lastly, we will be launching expansions frequently enough to keep ahead of most players and raising the level cap as necessary.

    Also see these threads:

    https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/search?query=endgame&type=forum_topic&submit=

    P.S. The max level will be 50 at launch.

     

    Brad has major experience with the lvl 50 cap, and there was never any end game i could see back then. Vangard i was unable to get into (wishes i could) I expect that now he has his hands on a fully designed package that after 50 he will manage it correctly, and flow the group game he once designed with SOE back then. Sigil did a great job in my eyes and i had loads of fun. ALways be remembered it never was an end game, but a colaboration of players to get higher end stuff down. It took a good chuck of time to get there in the end.

     

    Group focus game was always Sigils/Brads concept from the start. I do thank him for all he has done for the genre.

    • 459 posts
    December 7, 2017 12:52 PM PST

    "Endgame" is completely fabricated in the minds of those who claim to be suffering from it.

    I always enjoyed making new characters and leveling up again rather than experiencing "endgame".

    Point is, the choice is on you.

    • 487 posts
    December 7, 2017 1:30 PM PST

    I'm looking forward to the progeny system too.  It has the potential to smooth out a lot of the "problems" with the end game.

    • 311 posts
    December 7, 2017 2:08 PM PST

    philo said:

    I'm looking forward to the progeny system too.  It has the potential to smooth out a lot of the "problems" with the end game.

    Mentor system too. 

    • 12 posts
    December 7, 2017 2:28 PM PST

    bigdogchris said:

    "Endgame" is completely fabricated in the minds of those who claim to be suffering from it.

    I always enjoyed making new characters and leveling up again rather than experiencing "endgame".

    Point is, the choice is on you.

     

    This^

     

    Looking back on EQ, I enjoyed the process of "getting there" as much, if not more than, "being there" in the end game. Of course, at the time it was always, "gotta get to that max level."

     

    I think that, given prudent design, it's possible for a single game to have a mix of solo, group, and raid group content at all teirs of levels. I'm sure it'd be hard to pull off but, none the less possible. If it were done, "end game" becomes less relavent. Still, you can't code around that part of human nature that says, excell, acheive etc etc so, you'll always have those people who will push to get to that "end game max level."

    • 854 posts
    December 7, 2017 4:51 PM PST

    There are lots of reasons why the end game is such a draw for so many players. It is where the entire world is completely open to you.  There is nowhere you cannot go and survive.  It is the one point in the game where you have access to your entire range of abilities, spells and capabilities. With those you can push yourself further, you can vary your tactics and strategies and risk more and achieve more than at any point prior.  It is also the one point where you can't trivialize content by out-leveling it or out-gearing it.  While you do see some increases in player power from end game items, you soon realize it does not trivialize that content. End game is where the big monsters are found, where you see your highest damage output and face the highest damage incoming.  Everything at the end game is at its highest.

     

    • 415 posts
    December 7, 2017 4:59 PM PST

    Vandraad said:

    There are lots of reasons why the end game is such a draw for so many players. It is where the entire world is completely open to you.  There is nowhere you cannot go and survive.  It is the one point in the game where you have access to your entire range of abilities, spells and capabilities. With those you can push yourself further, you can vary your tactics and strategies and risk more and achieve more than at any point prior.  It is also the one point where you can't trivialize content by out-leveling it or out-gearing it.  While you do see some increases in player power from end game items, you soon realize it does not trivialize that content. End game is where the big monsters are found, where you see your highest damage output and face the highest damage incoming.  Everything at the end game is at its highest.

     

    As stated above...  "End game" is a myth perpetuated by people who just want to be able to say, "Me first!!  I did that before anyone else!!"  At level 50, a level 55 mob is just the same as a level 10 mob is to a level 5 plaayer.  You're still trying just as hard.  "Big monsters" are a matter of perspective.  To a level 1, a level 5 monister is a "big monster".

    • 2056 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:14 PM PST

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    • 744 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:17 PM PST

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    • 415 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:20 PM PST

    Zeem said:

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    Yeah. Except that I'm not new.

    The point wasn't that things scale equally.  It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.

    • 744 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:33 PM PST

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    Yeah. Except that I'm not new.

    The point wasn't that things scale equally.  It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.

    End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did. 

    • 415 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:45 PM PST

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    Yeah. Except that I'm not new.

    The point wasn't that things scale equally.  It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.

    End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did. 

    "End game" is a myth.  It implies that there is a way to complete the game.

    • 744 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:48 PM PST

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    Yeah. Except that I'm not new.

    The point wasn't that things scale equally.  It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.

    End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did. 

    "End game" is a myth.  It implies that there is a way to complete the game.

    No it don't. Its a continious process.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Endgame

    This post is good also about ESO.

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/1830370/#Comment_1830370

    "End-game content is stuff you do over and over and over again because there's nothing else to do, you grind gear until the next expansion when the level cap rises .. at which point you step on the leveling treadmill again until you reach the new level-cap than back on the updated end-game treadmill."

    Its cyclical. You can never "win" Everquest, hence the name.


    This post was edited by Zeem at December 7, 2017 5:52 PM PST
    • 415 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:53 PM PST

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    Yeah. Except that I'm not new.

    The point wasn't that things scale equally.  It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.

    End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did. 

    "End game" is a myth.  It implies that there is a way to complete the game.

    No it don't. Its a continious process.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Endgame

    Yeah.  I don't get my definitions from the "urban dictionary".

    Here's the thing about the "end game" myth.....  It's an artificial thing that was coined as an excuse to rush through content as quickly as possible to make others feel like they were "missing out" on something.  An artificial thing, that changes quite frequently I might add.  As an example.

    For EQ, the "end game" was level 50.  Which lasted through Kunark.  Then with Vellious that "end game" was bumped to level 60.  I stopped playing during PoP, but I've been given to understand that that "end game" was bumped up even farther.  So, yeah, what was "end game" to someone when Kunark came out was "mid level" to later players.

    • 2056 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:54 PM PST

    The term "endgame" predates MMOs. Claiming that it is a myth is outright ignorance of the definition of words.

    It doesn't necessarily imply that a game has a "The End" screen. It simply means that you're reaching the pinnacle of the current linear content that is available in the game. Whether or not you can roll a million alts to replay the same content, it's simply a statement of progress relative to the content that's available. There is a finite amount of content, after all.

    Endgame leveling = Current level cap

    Endgame gear = Highest stat gear available in the game

    Edit: The definitions of words also change over time. Language isn't completely static, it is very fluid. Instead of arguing about the definitions of words, you should probably take the most intellectually honest route and base your arguments around the concepts behind the words. Whether or not you agree or disagree with the definition of "endgame" means little when it has widespread colloquial acceptance.


    This post was edited by Liav at December 7, 2017 5:59 PM PST
    • 744 posts
    December 7, 2017 5:58 PM PST

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    Yeah. Except that I'm not new.

    The point wasn't that things scale equally.  It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.

    End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did. 

    "End game" is a myth.  It implies that there is a way to complete the game.

    No it don't. Its a continious process.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Endgame

    Yeah.  I don't get my definitions from the "urban dictionary".

    Here's the thing about the "end game" myth.....  It's an artificial thing that was coined as an excuse to rush through content as quickly as possible to make others feel like they were "missing out" on something.  An artificial thing, that changes quite frequently I might add.  As an example.

    For EQ, the "end game" was level 50.  Which lasted through Kunark.  Then with Vellious that "end game" was bumped to level 60.  I stopped playing during PoP, but I've been given to understand that that "end game" was bumped up even farther.  So, yeah, what was "end game" to someone when Kunark came out was "mid level" to later players.

    urbandictionary has the most update to date definations for alot of stuff reguarding slang and "internet speak" which I consider an seperate language.

    I'm call you grandpa.

    Grandpa, your a casual I can tell lol. I;ve dropped server first raid mobs and I love it. I love being first. Want to watch those? I'll send ya PM with the link.

     


    This post was edited by Zeem at December 7, 2017 6:07 PM PST
    • 854 posts
    December 7, 2017 6:00 PM PST

    Kalok said:

    Vandraad said:

    There are lots of reasons why the end game is such a draw for so many players. It is where the entire world is completely open to you.  There is nowhere you cannot go and survive.  It is the one point in the game where you have access to your entire range of abilities, spells and capabilities. With those you can push yourself further, you can vary your tactics and strategies and risk more and achieve more than at any point prior.  It is also the one point where you can't trivialize content by out-leveling it or out-gearing it.  While you do see some increases in player power from end game items, you soon realize it does not trivialize that content. End game is where the big monsters are found, where you see your highest damage output and face the highest damage incoming.  Everything at the end game is at its highest.

     

    As stated above...  "End game" is a myth perpetuated by people who just want to be able to say, "Me first!!  I did that before anyone else!!"  At level 50, a level 55 mob is just the same as a level 10 mob is to a level 5 plaayer.  You're still trying just as hard.  "Big monsters" are a matter of perspective.  To a level 1, a level 5 monister is a "big monster".

    Really?  You actually think that a lvl 55 mob to a lvl 50 character is the same as a lvl 10 mob to a lvl 5?  The former is only a 10% difference while the latter is 100% difference.  Oh, and I'll subsitute 'end game' with 'max level',  happy?  Go ahead and replace that in my post, you'll find that nothing changes.  Many people like to be at maximul level than any other level.

    • 415 posts
    December 7, 2017 6:07 PM PST

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Kalok said:

    Zeem said:

    Liav said:

    Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.

    Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is. 

    Yeah. Except that I'm not new.

    The point wasn't that things scale equally.  It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.

    End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did. 

    "End game" is a myth.  It implies that there is a way to complete the game.

    No it don't. Its a continious process.

    https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Endgame

    Yeah.  I don't get my definitions from the "urban dictionary".

    Here's the thing about the "end game" myth.....  It's an artificial thing that was coined as an excuse to rush through content as quickly as possible to make others feel like they were "missing out" on something.  An artificial thing, that changes quite frequently I might add.  As an example.

    For EQ, the "end game" was level 50.  Which lasted through Kunark.  Then with Vellious that "end game" was bumped to level 60.  I stopped playing during PoP, but I've been given to understand that that "end game" was bumped up even farther.  So, yeah, what was "end game" to someone when Kunark came out was "mid level" to later players.

    urbandictionary has the most update to date definations for alot of stuff reguarding slang and "internet speak" which I consider an seperate language.

    I'm call you grandpa.

    Grandpa, your a casual I can tell lol. I;ve dropped server first raid mobs and I love it. I love being first. Want to watch those? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13tVPAwgn30&list=PLpZF4sOpBWiLcgHIwW4x7FgEnr3iMgS-p

     

    Casual...  ROFL..  Yeah.  Ok.  I'm not the one wanting some easy game with bumpers and railings.  That would be you "hardcore" kids.  I don't CARE if you're the first ant anything.  I don't care if *I* am the first at anything.  I don't validate my existence by trying to impress others.  Especially not others on the Internet.  This "grandpa" has been doing things, including playing games, since before the publicly available Internet existed.