Vandraad said:Kalok said:Vandraad said:There are lots of reasons why the end game is such a draw for so many players. It is where the entire world is completely open to you. There is nowhere you cannot go and survive. It is the one point in the game where you have access to your entire range of abilities, spells and capabilities. With those you can push yourself further, you can vary your tactics and strategies and risk more and achieve more than at any point prior. It is also the one point where you can't trivialize content by out-leveling it or out-gearing it. While you do see some increases in player power from end game items, you soon realize it does not trivialize that content. End game is where the big monsters are found, where you see your highest damage output and face the highest damage incoming. Everything at the end game is at its highest.
As stated above... "End game" is a myth perpetuated by people who just want to be able to say, "Me first!! I did that before anyone else!!" At level 50, a level 55 mob is just the same as a level 10 mob is to a level 5 plaayer. You're still trying just as hard. "Big monsters" are a matter of perspective. To a level 1, a level 5 monister is a "big monster".
Really? You actually think that a lvl 55 mob to a lvl 50 character is the same as a lvl 10 mob to a lvl 5? The former is only a 10% difference while the latter is 100% difference. Oh, and I'll subsitute 'end game' with 'max level', happy? Go ahead and replace that in my post, you'll find that nothing changes. Many people like to be at maximul level than any other level.
Apparently you're not good at reading. You might want to go back and read. I've already addressed this sort of pedantry.
Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Liav said:Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.
Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is.
Yeah. Except that I'm not new.
The point wasn't that things scale equally. It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.
End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did.
"End game" is a myth. It implies that there is a way to complete the game.
No it don't. Its a continious process.
Yeah. I don't get my definitions from the "urban dictionary".
Here's the thing about the "end game" myth..... It's an artificial thing that was coined as an excuse to rush through content as quickly as possible to make others feel like they were "missing out" on something. An artificial thing, that changes quite frequently I might add. As an example.
For EQ, the "end game" was level 50. Which lasted through Kunark. Then with Vellious that "end game" was bumped to level 60. I stopped playing during PoP, but I've been given to understand that that "end game" was bumped up even farther. So, yeah, what was "end game" to someone when Kunark came out was "mid level" to later players.urbandictionary has the most update to date definations for alot of stuff reguarding slang and "internet speak" which I consider an seperate language.
I'm call you grandpa.
Grandpa, your a casual I can tell lol. I;ve dropped server first raid mobs and I love it. I love being first. Want to watch those? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13tVPAwgn30&list=PLpZF4sOpBWiLcgHIwW4x7FgEnr3iMgS-p
Casual... ROFL.. Yeah. Ok. I'm not the one wanting some easy game with bumpers and railings. That would be you "hardcore" kids. I don't CARE if you're the first ant anything. I don't care if *I* am the first at anything. I don't validate my existence by trying to impress others. Especially not others on the Internet. This "grandpa" has been doing things, including playing games, since before the publicly available Internet existed.
lol. I love it. See you, I would love to group with. Good times I can tell already :)
Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Kalok said:Zeem said:Liav said:Are you arguing that difficulty scales perfectly linearly at all levels? That certainly wasn't true in EQ, so I'm not sure what game you're using for a frame of reference here.
Yeah alot of the new people are coming in. They dont know how a real MMO is.
Yeah. Except that I'm not new.
The point wasn't that things scale equally. It was that there is ALWAYS a mob that is "big to you and that the "end game" is a myth.
End game isn;t a myth, its a adjectitive to the more difficult content of a topic. Applies not to games but all aspect of life. You'r saying an abstract concept is an collection of abstract ideas which both are true. So I hope I made the same amount of sense as you did.
"End game" is a myth. It implies that there is a way to complete the game.
No it don't. Its a continious process.
Yeah. I don't get my definitions from the "urban dictionary".
Here's the thing about the "end game" myth..... It's an artificial thing that was coined as an excuse to rush through content as quickly as possible to make others feel like they were "missing out" on something. An artificial thing, that changes quite frequently I might add. As an example.
For EQ, the "end game" was level 50. Which lasted through Kunark. Then with Vellious that "end game" was bumped to level 60. I stopped playing during PoP, but I've been given to understand that that "end game" was bumped up even farther. So, yeah, what was "end game" to someone when Kunark came out was "mid level" to later players.urbandictionary has the most update to date definations for alot of stuff reguarding slang and "internet speak" which I consider an seperate language.
I'm call you grandpa.
Grandpa, your a casual I can tell lol. I;ve dropped server first raid mobs and I love it. I love being first. Want to watch those? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13tVPAwgn30&list=PLpZF4sOpBWiLcgHIwW4x7FgEnr3iMgS-p
Casual... ROFL.. Yeah. Ok. I'm not the one wanting some easy game with bumpers and railings. That would be you "hardcore" kids. I don't CARE if you're the first ant anything. I don't care if *I* am the first at anything. I don't validate my existence by trying to impress others. Especially not others on the Internet. This "grandpa" has been doing things, including playing games, since before the publicly available Internet existed.
lol. I love it. See you, I would love to group with. Good times I can tell already :)
Meant to add an "on-line" in there. Been chatting online since about 1986. Been playing games online since about 1988 (look up 'door games'). Co-owned, and was lead engineer, one of the largest multi-line dial-up BBSes in Arizona in the early-mid 90s. I got my first computer in 1981. I started doing IT for a living in 1986, and am still doing it to this day.
I'm told that I'm actually a fun guy to be around when people aren't trying to pick fights with me.
I loved original EQ, until PoP. I liked EQ2 for the couple of years I played it. I really liked Vanguard for the year I played it, until SoE started screwing around with it. I am looking forward to going back to a game that's not "easy mode".
The term "End Game" is relative to the perceptions of the observer. For me, I won't ever be that end gamer again, instead perfectly happy to enjoy the journey. It's for a number of personal reasons. Time available to invest, time I'm willing to invest which are not the same things. Also, getting there fast is not really a motivating factor.
It's all personal perspective.
Kalok and i are close to the same age i am assuming. Both love to get involved in online things with others back in the 80's and onwards. However i think this thread has taken a bit of the wrong direction and replaced Ego's with what really the topic has been all about from the start.
Each person has a different view of end game.
I think i can honestly say the real problem doesnt lie with the characters progression as End game, but that of Guild Progression.
Guilds push the so called End Game on you. Casual guilds do not push, but high end raiding guilds do. The same casual guild going up against the elite raiding guilds of past MMOs are not the same thing. So end progression is more end game progression.
All guilds in that situation, either at Ranked 1 or Ranked 20 they are all past the normal parts of the game and can be classified as End game. Meaning the guilds put goals on Raiding High end boss mobs as end game. Casual grouping can be replaced with High end boss grouped mobs as End game to them because they either 1 dont have the time to spend online raiding or 2 will never care to see the higher end versions of the boss.
To each its own, but no reason to put any egos in here.. Your dicks are not big enough, honestly.
Try not to split the communty any further here this is a grouping game, we are yet to see if grouping and raiding will seperate the community once again. At no time will we be able to go backwards to older zones with lvls 1-40 as much as we try. Unless the devs can put something in that is creative. Sometimes i looked forward to removing myself from lvl 1 onward due to the spam, I need gold, I need help, I need this and that and completely distort the game for me.
So grouping game first then worry about the "End Game" so we are on the same page here.... what i understand is a grouping game again. I still love raiding though, on the hardcore end of the spectrum.
What if "End Game" really was? What if level 50 was it?
What if the first Pantheon expansion came out and a new continent was added, a new Race, a new Class, new Factions, but max level was still level 50?
"Content is King" and only 15% after players raid. So of that 15% some get pissy and quit, some progeny to the new race or class and the Content grows for the remaining 85% instead of leaving them left behind.
Just a thought.
I agree with Vandraad's opinion on why the idea of "end-game" aka "max level" is both attractive and relevant.
As far as this suggestion from someone else goes: "As stated above... "End game" is a myth perpetuated by people who just want to be able to say, "Me first!! I did that before anyone else!!" At level 50, a level 55 mob is just the same as a level 10 mob is to a level 5 plaayer. You're still trying just as hard. "Big monsters" are a matter of perspective. To a level 1, a level 5 monister is a "big monster". ---- wut? That's like saying "being rich" is a myth perpetuated by people that want to say "I'm RICH! I have more money than you!" and then justifying it by saying "being rich" is a matter of perspective. You can be rich with emotion but be financially poor, right? Try telling a 5 year old that the learning curve in their education is going to get incrementally more difficult every year, but it's at the same exact pace. "Man, going from 5 to 6 ... you're in for a doosie! It's good for you though, battle that monster! When you go from 17-18, at least you will have "perspective" to reflect on."
That poor kid. Acknowledging that the mathematical difference between 55 and 50 is the exact same as 10 and 5, and then labeling it as "perspective" is actually a good example of "perspective." You're taking the literal context of a sentence and then attempting to justify, with math, that those 2 examples are relatively the same thing. Please consider another perspective such as going from level 49-50 will probably require more effort than getting your first 10-15 levels combined. Please consider the inherent complexity of gameplay associated with max level compared to the extremely linear/limited choices available at level 5. You can make mathematical comparisons all you want in the name of "perspective" but it's the differences in context that actually matter. Math vs Science, you know what I mean? Perspective.
Vandraad said:There are lots of reasons why the end game is such a draw for so many players. It is where the entire world is completely open to you. There is nowhere you cannot go and survive. It is the one point in the game where you have access to your entire range of abilities, spells and capabilities. With those you can push yourself further, you can vary your tactics and strategies and risk more and achieve more than at any point prior. It is also the one point where you can't trivialize content by out-leveling it or out-gearing it. While you do see some increases in player power from end game items, you soon realize it does not trivialize that content. End game is where the big monsters are found, where you see your highest damage output and face the highest damage incoming. Everything at the end game is at its highest.
So, to combat this, everyone should always have the same hit points, have the same abilities, have the same spells, have the same gear, and never advance beyond the character you enter the game with and the game should never expand. This way, the "endgame" will already be here.
Or, we can continue having progression.
My personal preference to whatever the problem is for people would be to just have soft-caps on everything. No actual level cap, you just run out of stuff to get experience from. That would actually make the highest levels of the game more difficult and encourage people to play lower levels. If some dude wants to grind out the last remaining quest that gives 1 XP and you need a million to level, let him. This way endgame will be just a ridiculous concept existing only in the minds of those who continue to perpetrate it.
bryanleo9 said: When people race to get to this so called "end game" it leads to burn out and shows very bad game design. I am glad that Pantheon will have a fun game at high levels because EQ was lacking in that department. All the fun was reserved for after level 46 when you could work on epic and raid.
Not really, race to max level means more time talking general chat about what really matters.
bryanleo9 said:All the fun was reserved for after level 46 when you could work on epic and raid.
This is definitely how it was... I wonder if part of the fun is directly related to the caliber of gear/rewards a player receives? Or will mid lvl raids/content with mid level gear/rewards be enough incentive for players to want to spend extra time at lower levels?
I guess with the mentor system a player will be able to delevel and play at a lower lvl if there is incentive there to do so. So they can "have their cake and eat it to".
Race to the end game and still delevel and play lower lvl content afterwards.