Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Open world concerns??

    • 3016 posts
    November 24, 2017 1:36 PM PST

    oneADseven said:

    I honestly don't think griefing will be as bad in Pantheon as it has been in the past.  Maybe it's true that players are more of a douchebag today than they were back in the day ... but it's so much easier to record gameplay nowadays ... almost anybody can do it.  If someone does something shady, someone can literally post a video of it ... undeniable proof to the world of what they did.  It will be so much easier to blacklist people now than it ever was in the past.  Griefing is the least of my concerns and honestly people just need to band together and be strong.  Seeing so much worry or concern about it just fuels that type of behavior.  Stand your ground and make it clear that shady people will be held accountable.  I will have a thread on fantheonmmo.com that will teach players how to install/utilize recording software, and also have a section on the site dedicated to exposing rotten players.

     

    I might have to learn that recording feature from you 1AD7 sounds like that could be helpful,  and less frustration in the long run. 

    • 1281 posts
    November 24, 2017 1:41 PM PST

    CanadinaXegony said:

    oneADseven said:

    I honestly don't think griefing will be as bad in Pantheon as it has been in the past.  Maybe it's true that players are more of a douchebag today than they were back in the day ... but it's so much easier to record gameplay nowadays ... almost anybody can do it.  If someone does something shady, someone can literally post a video of it ... undeniable proof to the world of what they did.  It will be so much easier to blacklist people now than it ever was in the past.  Griefing is the least of my concerns and honestly people just need to band together and be strong.  Seeing so much worry or concern about it just fuels that type of behavior.  Stand your ground and make it clear that shady people will be held accountable.  I will have a thread on fantheonmmo.com that will teach players how to install/utilize recording software, and also have a section on the site dedicated to exposing rotten players.

     

    I might have to learn that recording feature from you 1AD7 sounds like that could be helpful,  and less frustration in the long run. 

    My nVidia video card included software that allows mew to record what is going on on the screen.  I would presume that AMD has the same.

    • 3237 posts
    November 24, 2017 1:49 PM PST

    Voila:  http://www.fantheonmmo.com/forum/48-expose-the-trolls/

     

    It should be a good long while before this section gets any traction, but it's best to be proactive about it.  Remember ... reputation is going to be important in Terminus.  Players will have to think twice before training a group or ninja-looting, lest their evil deed is exposed for the world to see!


    This post was edited by oneADseven at November 24, 2017 1:50 PM PST
    • 557 posts
    November 24, 2017 2:31 PM PST

    By their nature, most MMORPGs are competitive.  The simple existence of currency in a game encourages this.  By nature, people will compete.

    I have no trouble with other people acquiring more wealth than I have.  Where I get discouraged is when a single group of players is able to completely lock down content for epics or other class-defining quests.

    The game mechanics need to have enough random elements that multiple guilds don't all log in at the same time in the same zone for the same loot because boss X is due to spawn.  The location and time of the boss spawns should be far more unpredictable than anything we saw in EQ.   A particular piece of loot should also be in the loot table for more than one boss.  In many ways this solves competition issues, without discouraging competition.  If boss mobs have longer loot tables without increasing the number of drops, then you may have to to slay 8 dragons for a specific item.   However, you don't arrive in the ONLY place it might drop and find that two guilds are poop socking the only dragon that could give your enchanter the last piece of his epic for example.   Instead, your guild could choose a different dragon to hunt and still work toward your goals.   Guild X isn't monopolizing or holding every enchanter on the server for ransom.   More guilds can enjoy content without being able to specifically block the progress of others.

    Lore wise, who's to say that dragons aren't stealing from each other's hoards.

    • 28 posts
    November 25, 2017 2:45 AM PST

    They don't have the staff

    Feyshtey said:

    I tend to agree with 187. For one thing, the self-righteous little twerps arent likely to enjoy playing a game that makes them actually earn things, rather than the phat lewtz vending machines most of the MMOs are now. I'm betting many of the problem children will leave when the learn as much. 

    And as long as VR is willing to be somewhat uncompromising and bring the hammer down hard on trully abusive players, the message will get out fairly quickly and people will learn from the mistakes of others. 

    I'm putting a lot of faith in the policing of the gameworld by VR. I don't think I'm putting too much in, but I really hope I'm not proven wrong. Active GM's are going to be key to the game's success. 

     

    I think the current aim is for self regulation. If your abusive it ends up you can't get groups and can't progress, one of the best arguments against having classes that can solo easily as you can't self regulate lone wolves. If you can't solo you have to play nice :).. so ultimately Solo friendly classes will be the goto for abusive players...

    Another mechanism idea to block people being abusive would be that you can inspect and see their Alts names.... stops people creating an abusive ALT with impunity.

    /whoalt CharName or /listalt CharName etc

    They don't really have the staff to deal with all the petty schoolyard arguments and it's even harder policing the police if you have a militia of Judge Dreds.. so hopefully the game self regulates well.

    Don't think it needs anything silly like a rep system as that in itself is open to abuse...

    • 1303 posts
    November 25, 2017 5:25 AM PST

    @rocketmagnet - Obviously the first tier is a self-policing community. That's very important and in a game where grouping is necessary for large scale success and it helps a ton. Reputation matters.  However, it doens't mean jack if there's no escalation point for problems and no active monitoring. Lacking those active higher authorities reputation alone just brings the asshats together into bands of roving asshats. 

    Hacks, cheats and player abuse will become a problem unless it's known that there might just someone watching you. Even occasional demonstration of it in brutal fashion acts as a major deterent. The history of EQ is a perfect case study. For the first few years there was a relatively large and active GM staff. Issues were relatively low, all things considered. Word spread quickly when a known ****** was banned or suspended, and even more quickly when an entire guild recieved the banhammer. ("Ban hammer" being coined in EQ, I believe.) Over time there were fewer and fewer GMs, and the guide program all but evaporated. And you can correlate a lot of the horror stories from folks in this forum to that very timeline. And you can absolutely read up on how more and more people were so frustrated with a total lack of response to issues later in the game's lifecycle that they flat out quit.

     

     

    • 1921 posts
    November 25, 2017 7:59 AM PST

    Feyshtey said:... The history of EQ is a perfect case study. For the first few years there was a relatively large and active GM staff. Issues were relatively low, all things considered. Word spread quickly when a known ****** was banned or suspended, and even more quickly when an entire guild recieved the banhammer. ("Ban hammer" being coined in EQ, I believe.) Over time there were fewer and fewer GMs, and the guide program all but evaporated. And you can correlate a lot of the horror stories from folks in this forum to that very timeline. And you can absolutely read up on how more and more people were so frustrated with a total lack of response to issues later in the game's lifecycle that they flat out quit. ...

    And after having seen that same gm/csr presence rise and fall in several games (M59, UO, EQ, EQ2, AC2, SWG, AO, WAR, DAOC, more) me and mine would prefer a more mechanical approach, rather than an escalation or community approach to handling toxicity.

    I haven't seen a community approach design not prone to abuse, and I haven't seen an escalation path that doesn't break down over time. (even in 24 hours, the night shift is the perfect time for badness)
    So, while Pantheon may simply end up repeating history due to hubris, and we'll be here to watch & play while the world burns, there are many mechanical solutions to these historically proven social toxicity problems that allow players to focus on fighting the environment rather than other players.

    • 1281 posts
    November 25, 2017 8:23 AM PST

    vjek said:

    Feyshtey said:... The history of EQ is a perfect case study. For the first few years there was a relatively large and active GM staff. Issues were relatively low, all things considered. Word spread quickly when a known ****** was banned or suspended, and even more quickly when an entire guild recieved the banhammer. ("Ban hammer" being coined in EQ, I believe.) Over time there were fewer and fewer GMs, and the guide program all but evaporated. And you can correlate a lot of the horror stories from folks in this forum to that very timeline. And you can absolutely read up on how more and more people were so frustrated with a total lack of response to issues later in the game's lifecycle that they flat out quit. ...

    And after having seen that same gm/csr presence rise and fall in several games (M59, UO, EQ, EQ2, AC2, SWG, AO, WAR, DAOC, more) me and mine would prefer a more mechanical approach, rather than an escalation or community approach to handling toxicity.

    I haven't seen a community approach design not prone to abuse, and I haven't seen an escalation path that doesn't break down over time. (even in 24 hours, the night shift is the perfect time for badness)
    So, while Pantheon may simply end up repeating history due to hubris, and we'll be here to watch & play while the world burns, there are many mechanical solutions to these historically proven social toxicity problems that allow players to focus on fighting the environment rather than other players.

    The downside to a "mechanical" approach is that it is subject to abuse.  "I don't like player x, so I am going to report him every day.  After x times of being reported he will automatically be banned for x days.  If he gets banned enough times he will be permabanned."

    I think that part of the reason that the guide system in EQ failed was because it was all downside and no upside for the guides.  Rather than playing the game, they were policing the game.  Rather than levelling up and having fun with their friends, they were mediating stupid crap.  Who wants to do that day in and day out for free instead of playing the game?

    • 1921 posts
    November 25, 2017 11:33 AM PST

    Just to be clear, what I meant by "mechanical" approach is NOT the community approach (reputation, community flagging, community reporting, etc) and NOT the escalation approach (CSR's, GM's, tickets, video evidence).

    Specifically, in-game mechanics (hence, "mechanical") that prevent the social toxicity in the first place, is what I'm referring to.

    • 1281 posts
    November 25, 2017 11:39 AM PST

    vjek said:

    Just to be clear, what I meant by "mechanical" approach is NOT the community approach (reputation, community flagging, community reporting, etc) and NOT the escalation approach (CSR's, GM's, tickets, video evidence).

    Specifically, in-game mechanics (hence, "mechanical") that prevent the social toxicity in the first place, is what I'm referring to.

    Ah so.  I thought you meant "mechanical approach" as in a petitioning system that automatically takes actions based on the petitions.

    • 1921 posts
    November 25, 2017 11:42 AM PST

    As you've accurately pointed out, that would be very easy to abuse. :)  And people would definitely abuse it! heheh.

    • 1281 posts
    November 25, 2017 12:05 PM PST

    vjek said:

    As you've accurately pointed out, that would be very easy to abuse. :)  And people would definitely abuse it! heheh.

    I wonder how an official "reputation" system would work out.  There would have to be a mechanism to combat sbuse, obviously.  The converse side of that is that we see "how well" these sorts of things "work out" on eBay and Amazon....

    • 1303 posts
    November 25, 2017 12:49 PM PST

    vjek said:

    Just to be clear, what I meant by "mechanical" approach is NOT the community approach (reputation, community flagging, community reporting, etc) and NOT the escalation approach (CSR's, GM's, tickets, video evidence).

    Specifically, in-game mechanics (hence, "mechanical") that prevent the social toxicity in the first place, is what I'm referring to.

    The problem with mechanical measures that prevent people from being bad, is that they almost invariably also prevent good people from playing with a level of freedom that's critical to a good MMO. 

    • 801 posts
    November 25, 2017 2:58 PM PST

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Kalok said:

    philo said:

    The question is not about the amount of griefing that happened in EQ but the amount that will happen in Pantheon...communities have changed a lot.  I feel that the trend has been that players are less courteous to each other these days.  The concern is that Brad and the team aren't taking into account how bad it will be because they are expecting the amount of griefing to be similar to what it was in the past.  It could be substantially more frequent.

    It is my belief that griefers will be handled by the community just as they were "in the old days", with the rare few that will be reported, also like "in the old days".  I don't know about the rest of the group, but Brad is a very experienced, you could even say expert, MMO developer.  I would be very surprised if he hasn't though of this.

     

    There are probably several threads that refer to content blocking by high end guilds..and yes it does happen,  happened on Xegony for a full year,  couldn't get the epic mob in Karnors (Venril Sathir) ..couldn't get near it..same for Phinigel Atropos.   In the end I decided to stop banging my head on the brick wall..and left the game.   And yes the Devs including Brad are aware of this issue.  :)

    I normally dont make stuff up, and i completely agree with you. Phinny was a great example of farming. Remember the good old days of the Jboots blocking hehe.

    You dont forget people, or what they used to do. many of the systems today have been changed to avoid the so called exploiting that did happen back then.

     

    Also forgot to mention, the showeq garbage that used to really tick players off.

     


    This post was edited by Crazzie at November 25, 2017 2:59 PM PST
    • 22 posts
    November 26, 2017 8:41 AM PST

    Kalok said:

    vjek said:

    As you've accurately pointed out, that would be very easy to abuse. :)  And people would definitely abuse it! heheh.

    I wonder how an official "reputation" system would work out.  There would have to be a mechanism to combat sbuse, obviously.  The converse side of that is that we see "how well" these sorts of things "work out" on eBay and Amazon....

    Good question. Things get hairy when social 'activism' is involved and a platform becomes repurposed as a form of boycott.  Also many people will be exacty like myself, and only leave feedback when it is negative. So you are left with developing a system that constrains to canned ratings and neutral/positive options.  All that said, the entire concept in an MMO is a terrible idea.  I can only imagine it now. 

    "Thanks for the group guys, don't forget to like and subscribe and become part of my notification squad so you can stay up to date when I login! You can also join our Kalokolytes on Pantreon @Kalok"

    • 1281 posts
    November 26, 2017 8:48 AM PST

    Dediadeis said:

    Kalok said:

    vjek said:

    As you've accurately pointed out, that would be very easy to abuse. :)  And people would definitely abuse it! heheh.

    I wonder how an official "reputation" system would work out.  There would have to be a mechanism to combat sbuse, obviously.  The converse side of that is that we see "how well" these sorts of things "work out" on eBay and Amazon....

    Good question. Things get hairy when social 'activism' is involved and a platform becomes repurposed as a form of boycott.  Also many people will be exacty like myself, and only leave feedback when it is negative. So you are left with developing a system that constrains to canned ratings and neutral/positive options.  All that said, the entire concept in an MMO is a terrible idea.  I can only imagine it now. 

    "Thanks for the group guys, don't forget to like and subscribe and become part of my notification squad so you can stay up to date when I login! You can also join our Kalokolytes on Pantreon @Kalok"

    Exactly my concern.

    It sort of reminds me of an episod eof the new TV series by Seth McFarlaine 'The Orville' where an entore planet based their society on a reputation system.  If you got too many downvotes, you were sent for "re-education".

    • 68 posts
    November 26, 2017 9:13 AM PST

    As long as there are enough assholes within a community for them to bond together in the form of a guild, that's exactly what's going to happen without external policing. An individual asshole is easy to deal with. Ignore him, don't invite him, make his terrible reputation stand for something. Once that asshole finds other asshole friends, it no longer matter what the community thinks of him or them, as they no longer rely on them to accomplish anything. They can then train, killsteal or otherwise exercise douchebaggery on their own accord with little to no consequence.

    Mechanical bot report systems is subject to exploitation, so that isn't really a viable option either. The only really useful approach is GM intervention is case of severe cases of repeated douchebaggery. Put their characters in literal jail for extended amount of time for everyone to see.

     

    • 1303 posts
    November 26, 2017 9:21 AM PST

    Menubrea said:

    As long as there are enough assholes within a community for them to bond together in the form of a guild, that's exactly what's going to happen without external policing. An individual asshole is easy to deal with. Ignore him, don't invite him, make his terrible reputation stand for something. Once that asshole finds other asshole friends, it no longer matter what the community thinks of him or them, as they no longer rely on them to accomplish anything. They can then train, killsteal or otherwise exercise douchebaggery on their own accord with little to no consequence.

    Mechanical bot report systems is subject to exploitation, so that isn't really a viable option either. The only really useful approach is GM intervention is case of severe cases of repeated douchebaggery. Put their characters in literal jail for extended amount of time for everyone to see.

     

    Actually it still means something in a game where reputation matters. That guild of asshats isn't going to change into nice folks. But there were more than a few cases on my server alone where guilds banded together to combat the guild of asshats, and while they didn't wholly solve the issues with the bad guild, they absolutely did mitigate their impacts. And they forced that guild to compromise from time to time or there were so many people out to intefere with everything that they did that their game lives kinda sucked. 

    • 1860 posts
    November 26, 2017 12:11 PM PST

    There are two different levels of issues that are being discussed as the same thing and we need to seperate them for discussions sake.

    Issues like hacks and account theft are one thing.  They will have to be dealt with by VR.

    Issues like training or kill stealing or spamming/inflamatory remarks in chat are another thing.  Those types of issues VR simply does not have the man power to police.

    • 3237 posts
    November 26, 2017 12:19 PM PST

    I think it's far too early for anybody to predict how much man power VR will have post-launch.  I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be able to handle issues like training/KS'ing or spamming.  Guides could be used in such a way that they can sift through reports and make suggestions/decisions based on data collected or be able to quickly escalate something to an official GM.  Things like spam or inflammatory remarks can easily be verified.  I think handling issues like missing items or lost characters would be far more demanding but those too should be handled via a /ticket system.  I feel pretty strongly that VR has put a lot of thought and care into how they plan on dealing with ongoing support both in and out of the game.

    • 1860 posts
    November 26, 2017 12:27 PM PST

    At least on release, no amount of guides will be able to regulate all of the training/kill stealing/spamming/inflamatory remarks/other minor issues.  It can't be handled in other triple A mmos with a much larger budget put towards policing these issues.  Some volunteer guides isn't going to change that. 

    If the game was going to be as niche as was originally advertised a few years back then it might have been possible.  At this point the playerbase is going to be so large on release that thinking VR will be able to police all the minor issues, whether there are volunteer guides or not, is laughable.

    • 1618 posts
    November 26, 2017 12:43 PM PST

    philo said:

    If the game was going to be as niche as was originally advertised a few years back then it might have been possible.  At this point the playerbase is going to be so large on release that thinking VR will be able to police all the minor issues, whether there are volunteer guides or not, is laughable.

    Or, people can just learn to let the minor things go. No amount of policing will stop everything. People can just use /ignore or other simple methods to handle most things. A few minor issues will get by. Oh, well. The game goes on. Save the support staff for big things and handle the little things yourself. Or, just ignore them and move on.

    • 1303 posts
    November 26, 2017 1:46 PM PST

    philo said:

    There are two different levels of issues that are being discussed as the same thing and we need to seperate them for discussions sake.

    Issues like hacks and account theft are one thing.  They will have to be dealt with by VR.

    Issues like training or kill stealing or spamming/inflamatory remarks in chat are another thing.  Those types of issues VR simply does not have the man power to police.

    How do you know what VR has plans for or not? 

    Today? You're right. They are a streamlined development team. Tomorrow, for their production support team? Who's to say? 

    Brad and most of the guys at VR seem to me far more interested in a healthy, compelling game. They are less concerned with maximum profit. The maximum profit motivator is largely what doomed Vanguard, with the distributors/producers pushing hard to release and get the cash flowing before the game was ready. Sigil recognized the error in going live before the time was right, but they were unable to hold Microsoft and Sony back from it. 

    The point is, I don't get any indication that VR is out for the almight buck above all else. Instead I know from past experiences that Brad is much more interested in doing what's right for the game. And Brad has deliberately built a business model this time that prevents outside entities from dictating the direction based on money over quality. I would place even odds that in-game GM's will be there, and would place good odds that they will at least explore the idea of a volunteer guide program to assist. 

    • 3237 posts
    November 26, 2017 1:48 PM PST

    philo said:

    At least on release, no amount of guides will be able to regulate all of the training/kill stealing/spamming/inflamatory remarks/other minor issues.  It can't be handled in other triple A mmos with a much larger budget put towards policing these issues.  Some volunteer guides isn't going to change that. 

    If the game was going to be as niche as was originally advertised a few years back then it might have been possible.  At this point the playerbase is going to be so large on release that thinking VR will be able to police all the minor issues, whether there are volunteer guides or not, is laughable.

    Reputation is as important as the community makes it.  I don't expect GM's to deal with every little thing.  I have been pretty satisfied with the GM presence that I have seen in most games, so it's never really been a concern of mine.  Kilsin has been managing these forums for how long now?  I know it's not the same thing as managing a server, but it goes to show just how much of a difference a truly dedicated team member can make.  There are plenty of triple A mmos with a much larger budget that couldn't make a fun game either, so the issues other games/companies are having doesen't hold much weight here.  Not as far as I'm concerned, anyway.  Guides can make a tremendous impact on handling or navigating through lower priority issues.  I know quite a few folks who are interested in becoming a guide for no other reason than wanting to help the game thrive.  You just need to put good people in a position to where they can make a difference ... everything else will work itself out.


    This post was edited by oneADseven at November 26, 2017 1:53 PM PST
    • 1860 posts
    November 26, 2017 2:03 PM PST

    I guess a lot of it is an opinion based on what someone deems as satisfactory management. 

    For me at least, a good portion of that is in speed of response.