I didn't want to derail the "bathroom" thread, but it got me thinking.
I know hunger and thirst are biological functions so, to some, may not add immersion to the game but just annoyances.
For me, however, I love that extra aspect of having to figure out how to thrive in the world. It's another challenge for me to make sure I pack enough food for a long outing, or look for food while out adventuring.
One of my favorite memories was riding the boat home to Butcherblock and starving along the way, hoping I wouldn't pass out on the boat. I landed on the dock with no money and no food. I collapsed on the dock. After a very long trip, I was terrified I was going to die there and have to go back my bind point and start all over again. It was as scary (and as risky) as an epic raid fight!
I found an old shoe some fisherman dropped and I grabbed it and ran, collapsing every few steps, to a merchant, sold it and bought one ration. I woke up and ran to town and the bank and survived.
It was awesome!
Imagine with the climate system how this could be even MORE of a worry:
Consuming water faster in a dry desert. Getting more benefit from a hot meal (instead of a cold meal) while you are in a winter zone.
I hope something like this (hunger/thirst) are in the game
I support this idea but I would like to hybridize it. Here is my reasoning:
1) I like the added realism of having your character get hungry/thirsty.
2) I want to see a crafting based cooking system with lots of recipes to make, some using very rare ingredients.
3) One of my favorite social aspects in SWG (before it was nerfed) was the battle fatigue system, where you could clear your fatigue by visiting a player entertainer. The concept I like is the idea that downtime spent socializing healed your fatigue faster.
so, Neph's proposal:
- Going without food/water introduces a fatigue debuff that hurts combat effectiveness. Maybe not as extreme as passing out, but it could go that far if we want it to.
- Players can carry "trail provisions" of various quality with them, that prevent this effect from occurring. Higher quality provisions last longer.
- Additionally, players can visit "taverns", where they can socialize and consume "meals" prepared by player cooks. Meals restore more fatigue/endurance than trail provisions, and give buffs to players.
So my goal with this, again, is to make socialization and reliance on other players a component of it, without forcing people to take full picnic lunches with them on adventures. Thoughts?
Grizzly said:What you say is : you would like Pantheon to be a "Survival game " ? for me i dont need /whant that in MMO its a tiny mechanic wich very fast just get booring and semi "auto" huge stack's of favirite food and auto use .
I agree, once players learn what food is most efficient, that's the only food they will buy. I don't think this would even create any immersion... the actual task of eating and drinking is usually automatic.
Yoiur story/memory is amazing... but that doesn't mean it needs to be recreated here. You're a much smarter player than you were back then, chances are you would never even come close to running out of food again.
I agree with Grizzly here. We have had enough of (failed) survival games as it is. However I feel Zelda: BoTW did this right and we can learn from it. In climates, using specific foods to heat or cool your body can be a low level way of passing through an area while Pantheons aclimation system and gear exists for the higher level players to keep the hassle at an minimum. Items should grant certain resistances in a logical way, wielding a torch might give you a low cold resist and so on. My point is, food shouldn't be mandatory but optional, positive not negative, especially as an "enabler" for lower levels to access areas they otherwise couldn't.
I like the idea of meaningful food/drink. Tie it into crafting and let people go to town. I would prefer that they are used as a consumable with short-term buffs, and that power scaling is so limited/controlled that having the high-end food actually means something. I remember mithkabobs (and other food) being a big deal in FFXI ... if someone in your group didn't have them for the XP grind (especially when working on good XP chains) ... if you were really close to completing good chains and needed to squeeze out a little more DPS, someone might part with a few. Food was expensive because it was meaningful, and the way it was implemented in FFXI was one of the better examples of how certain types of items can boost a player driven economy. It was great to have a culinarian as a friend.
I really liked the food/drink hunger/thirst aspect of EQ. It opened up interaction with classes who could summon food and it opened up commerce for crafters who could make quality food with associated stats. It did affect your survivability. If you ignored your basic needs, you couldn't regen mana or health. If you stayed on top of it, it was somewhat of a non-factor, but if you ignored it, you'd have to turn to the kindness of strangers to help you out of a jam. Years after launch, people were still scrambling because they ran out of food and drink.
Baking/brewing can be fun trades, especially if you get creative with what you can bake/brew. Lots and lots of role play potential in addition to practical value
Nah,
thirst, hunger , bathroom, these are not adding immersion these are adding annoyances.
what I want is not to be insulted by the game.
if a guard captain ask me to dispatch a band of orcs on the road, they can't be pushovers,
i dont want to oneshot them, it will break the immersion! because if they are easy why havent the guard captain killed them himself? in order to defeat them i have to bring friends and use everything i got.
if the blacksmith asking me to get him a hammer, it cant be right in front of his hut near the well, this is breaking the immersion! because he can get his hammer by himself, the hammer must be in a witches covenant and hard to find.
I also dont want a huge power level gap between levels, the idea (that was implemented in WOW classic and in almost every game after) that if a mob is lower than five levels from you they suddenly cant even hit you and all your hits are multiplied crits.... even if the mob is low level it should be able to hit you and to cause some harm, otherwise the world is harmless and you start to disrespect it. this is breaking immersion. you shouldnt be able to run through a whole wolves den unharmed just because you are five levels higher then them.
if the city blacksmith or alchemist can make powerfull weapon or powerfull potion, the item is not designated for the PC, it breaks immersion! they will probably make plenty of them and arm the city guard and get payed by the king.
special powerfull blacksmiths or alchemists will have to be found in the deep swamps, vast deserts and high snowy mountain peaks.
also, mounts only on max level.... seeing a 23 lvl scrub riding a cash shop flying unicorn is really breaking immersion.
other things that break immersion: free handouts of gear specially generated for your class and type, login rewards , many types of participation tokens (one or two types is fine but five+ different types of participation tokens that exchanged for gear is immersion breaking), useless titles for nothing, ...
Ultimately - I think there may need to be some balance here... because every time this sort of topic comes up, there are those who very much want little things in the game that make the world feel more "Real" and those who don't want them at all. I'd love to hear a dev's take on this topic...
With food and potions I say positive instead of negative re-enforcement. Give helpful (not OP) bonuses for using them, not punishing people for not using them. It basically will accomplish the same thing like it did in XI. Good for the economy and still "required" by the community instead of actually required by the game. People just respond to that motivation better so it should be used when possible.
Wandidar said:Ultimately - I think there may need to be some balance here... because every time this sort of topic comes up, there are those who very much want little things in the game that make the world feel more "Real" and those who don't want them at all. I'd love to hear a dev's take on this topic...
Yup! It's the same old debate that pops up on many threads even if it isn't specifically stated as such. Naming policy, food and drink, fast travel, languages, first person vs third, coin weight etc. They all revolve around the same basic question - how much realism do you want in the game - and there's a wide spectrum of prefererences. I lean (way) toward more, so I enjoy the idea of having to keep myself fed, others don't like it as much. This all relates back to Brad's post about different rulesets for servers and wanting to appeal to different player types. I'm hopful we'll all find a ruleset we enjoy.
I would hope there would be food and drink in the game! It should be readily available for sale at vendors for those who do not want to spend time gathering it themselves. It's a money sink or time sink. Everyone should be able to smoke fish or meat for rations. Or buy prepared rations from vendors or high quality rations from player crafting cooks.
It would be nice if crafting cooks could make foods which increase your healing, stamina or mana regen rates.
While I certainly can't speak for VR, I would say that there is a very good chance food and drink are going to be required in this game for the bare minimum of (most likely) hp/mana/endurance regeneration. I would also say with a sense of certainty based on what we do know that there will be player crafted food/drink that grant some sort of attribute bonuses.
Granted things may have changed internally, but in the Summoner description it states: "The Summoner has developed a powerful arcane command to conjure sustenance, tools, ..." which would lead me to believe it will be something players need to have, but if there is a profession based on sustenance it would likely mean they can only summon very basic food/drink as to not step on the toes of crafters. It would be an extremely odd choice for them to add an entire profession (given players are limited to 1 per character) based on food/drink if it offered no additional benefits of any kind over normal foods from a vendor.
But the difference this time (in this thread as opposed to the prior ones) is that I want to consider hunger/thirst as part of their unique climate system.
Fighting in a desert and you require more water because you get thirsty faster, etc.
This could add a whole other dimension to their climate system.
MyNegation said:I also dont want a huge power level gap between levels, the idea (that was implemented in WOW classic and in almost every game after) that if a mob is lower than five levels from you they suddenly cant even hit you and all your hits are multiplied crits.... even if the mob is low level it should be able to hit you and to cause some harm, otherwise the world is harmless and you start to disrespect it. this is breaking immersion. you shouldnt be able to run through a whole wolves den unharmed just because you are five levels higher then them.
This is far from correct for nearly every game I've played including wow. In fact I'm currently playing wow classic and I can assure you mobs 5 levels below you can absolutely hit and kill you.
I understand the point of your post, but I feel you misunderstand what immersion is lol. The guard captain telling you to go solo kill a group of wolves near the city gate doesn't have to time to go off on such a remedial task. Which is why he's offering you bits of coin to do it.
Alot of the other things you brought just sound like weird annoyances you have with games... and with the exception of the unicorn example... dont seem like they would affect immersion at all.
Amsai said:With food and potions I say positive instead of negative re-enforcement. Give helpful (not OP) bonuses for using them, not punishing people for not using them. It basically will accomplish the same thing like it did in XI. Good for the economy and still "required" by the community instead of actually required by the game. People just respond to that motivation better so it should be used when possible.
Food/Drink providing buffs when food/drink itself is not needed only makes the consumption of buff food/drink mandatory otherwise you are at a disadvantage...and I'm perfectly OK with that. People who whine about needing food/drink really need to look back at EQ1 and think long and hard about how difficult it was to keep food/drink on your character. 1 stack of decent playermade food would last 2-3 real life weeks, if not longer. Some of the food would only be consumed once per 10 real hours. Sure, very early days rations/water didn't last long but nobody cared really.
If the system is designed so your character goes through a stack of water each game day and shovels a half stack of rations down its throat at each meal then I could easily see how that would be a PITA. But realistically speaking that will not happen. I will predict right now we will have food/drink and people will quickly not even notice it as it will only require such a minute fraction of your attention every few real life days...while providing a whole lot of fun for crafters, collectors and people who want to scrape together every last possible advantage.
Malsirian said:Wandidar said:Ultimately - I think there may need to be some balance here... because every time this sort of topic comes up, there are those who very much want little things in the game that make the world feel more "Real" and those who don't want them at all. I'd love to hear a dev's take on this topic...
Yup! It's the same old debate that pops up on many threads even if it isn't specifically stated as such. Naming policy, food and drink, fast travel, languages, first person vs third, coin weight etc. They all revolve around the same basic question - how much realism do you want in the game - and there's a wide spectrum of prefererences. I lean (way) toward more, so I enjoy the idea of having to keep myself fed, others don't like it as much. This all relates back to Brad's post about different rulesets for servers and wanting to appeal to different player types. I'm hopful we'll all find a ruleset we enjoy.
The thing here is this:
When it comes to things making the game more "real" everyone seems to draw lines on an item by item basis. For example, nobody seems to have any issues with bags in your inventory... but why do we have bags? Bags are just a means of adding some reality to how you hold / manage stuff that your avatar has picked up and not gotten rid of yet. Bags could be eliminated entirely and replaced with a big, blah, square of inventory space that we just dump stuff in. But for the most part, players have no issue with the "reality" of looking through bags, sorting stuff in bags, getting different size bags, etc...
One person who doesn't mind bags won't like dealing with food, while another will love the idea of food.
One person who doesn't mind bags won't like in game maps, while another will love the idea of in game maps.
etc...
And while those likes and dislikes might trend (someone who likes that stuff likes all of it), it doesn't always trend. Because as we all know, there are a lot here who love the idea of food, who don't love the idea of maps. I don't envy the devs in trying to pick what sorts of this stuff to do, and what sorts of this stuff not to do.
Wandidar said:The thing here is this:
When it comes to things making the game more "real" everyone seems to draw lines on an item by item basis. For example, nobody seems to have any issues with bags in your inventory... but why do we have bags? Bags are just a means of adding some reality to how you hold / manage stuff that your avatar has picked up and not gotten rid of yet. Bags could be eliminated entirely and replaced with a big, blah, square of inventory space that we just dump stuff in. But for the most part, players have no issue with the "reality" of looking through bags, sorting stuff in bags, getting different size bags, etc...
One person who doesn't mind bags won't like dealing with food, while another will love the idea of food.
One person who doesn't mind bags won't like in game maps, while another will love the idea of in game maps.
etc...
And while those likes and dislikes might trend (someone who likes that stuff likes all of it), it doesn't always trend. Because as we all know, there are a lot here who love the idea of food, who don't love the idea of maps. I don't envy the devs in trying to pick what sorts of this stuff to do, and what sorts of this stuff not to do.
Yup that's the hard part isn't it? There is a very fine line there of making things challenging but not tedious. Realistic but not too inconvenient. I don't envy them either but I'm certain they will strike the right balance (in my opinion Brad did in EQ and VG). I wouldn't have backed the game otherwise.
This seems to sum it up well.
Except the Insert Video didn't work.
So here is the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJCEQaSlvHE
i liked how food and drink affected mana regen, stAmina etc in eq.
I don't ever remember passing out tho even tho I ran out oif food/drink often...????
i agree that with the climate system this could be even more important.
Adds more to having crafters make food/drink that has better benefits like stats and lasting power. Or has resists against decay in heat/cold etc.
great idea. I don't see that as an annoyance at all
If food/drink is a requirement or adds benefits, you don't need to stop there. Make food have a 0.001% chance of poisoning you causing death if you don't get cured by a healer within 60 minutes. Players who craft food could also be given the option to poison their own goods and only others with an equally high cooking skill could identify which food has been poisoned. Chance of poisoning can be substantially higher for food purchased from street vendors or back alley dwellers. Food from reputable sources should be super expensive so that low levels are forced to buy it on the street. If you die from food poisoning below level 10 your character is also killed permanently because growing up is tough. And lastly, if you haven't figured it out already I am totally joking...
Ya I don't think you pass out from lack of food, maybe it was that way at the very begining, but I have memory loss from the trama of the full screen spell book/meditate mechanic.
Really food was more important to high HP classes, like warriors trying to solo. Could take for damb ever to regen.
In the end it really is all the little things we don't immediatly notice that can make the world seem more like, well a world, instead of just an online space to play in.
Food/Drink can be one of those little things.