Please say this will never happen in Pantheon!
"Earlier this month, Activision received a patent for matchmaking for a system that "driv[es] microtransactions in multiplayer video games." The patent was originally filed in May of 2015 but was just approved. The patent dives into the nitty-gritty of this system, which also factors in skill and internet latency when matchmaking. However, things get really interesting when the patent outlines matchmaking based on grouping players who haven't spent money on items with those who have:
For example, in one implementation, the system may include a microtransaction engine that arranges matches to influence game-related purchases. For instance, the microtransaction engine may match a more expert/marquee player with a junior player to encourage the junior player to make game-related purchases of items possessed/used by the marquee player. A junior player may wish to emulate the marquee player by obtaining weapons or other items used by the marquee player....The microtransaction engine may match the junior player with a player that is a highly skilled sniper in the game. In this manner, the junior player may be encouraged to make game-related purchases such as a rifle or other item used by the marquee player.
Using an example that would be right at home in one of Activision's first-person shooters, the patent also details how players who make in-game purchases might be placed in situations that optimize rewarding the player for that purchase:
For example, if the player purchased a particular weapon, the microtransaction engine may match the player in a gameplay session in which the particular weapon is highly effective, giving the player an impression that the particular weapon was a good purchase. This may encourage the player to make future purchases to achieve similar gameplay results."
So they are basically manipulating your game experience in an effort to extract more money. It's an advanced algorithm of P2W ... once you start on this slippery slope, there is no going back! The rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper. Pantheon should steer away from any/all P2W models including kronos type systems. In an MMO world it's basically the same thing as above except you don't need to be "matched" with someone who does it. You will inevitably see them during your travels. It could be in an XP group ... it could be someone sitting AFK in town. These companies only get away with this crap because of the sense of entitlement that so many people have. There are so many who don't want to work hard for their achievements. All of that crap goes against the core values that Pantheon is being built on and as long as those core values remain in tact ... I don't expect this kind of thing to rear it's ugly head in our game.
Very interesting. Not surprising from a company like Blizzard that literally only cares about money.
But it should go without saying that this won't happen with Pantheon. At least not while Brad's at the helm. I think they've made that exceedingly clear.
The patent sounds ludicrous, going only on the info in this thread. There is no inventiveness whatsoever, merely a chain of automated decisions, each of them trivial. Not to mention, I wouldn't be surprised if there were already some prior art that wasn't made public for fear or players' reactions. I suspect the patent may be shot down.
More generally: this is what you get when you go down the path of microtransactions. There are no benign or harmless microtransactions. Any such system will necessarily impact gameplay due to the need to make sales. It's on!y a matter of how negative the impact is.
I suppose I'm not really surprised that someone did this, but I'm surprised that it wasn't EA who filed that patent.
I really think this falls into the category of "unethical marketing practices". They're using their cash shop customers (without telling them) to influence other players to use the cash shop. That's sort of like me walking into the department store and the salesperson saying "Oh hey, we don't have their consent to say this, but you know your best friend shops here too. Want to see what they bought?"
I am just going to say this, personally and just in my own opinion gamers are getting just what they deserve. With these micro-transactions they wouldn't exist if people didn't purchase all of these extra items. You can't blame the business for making their business model better. Its no different with any kind of transactions we may encounter in life. If there wasn't a market for it they wouldn't be doing this.
If you honestly want to thwart junk like this don't support them by buying the merchandise. Essentially these companies are making money off from something that technically doesn't even exist. There is no tangible item that you can show to others and say see look what I bought with my hard earned money. At the end of the day when these companies end their business models the items go poof. So as I said certain gamers who support this kind of business model will get what they deserve in the end and that is nothing.
Evorus said:I am just going to say this, personally and just in my own opinion gamers are getting just what they deserve. With these micro-transactions they wouldn't exist if people didn't purchase all of these extra items. You can't blame the business for making their business model better. Its no different with any kind of transactions we may encounter in life. If there wasn't a market for it they wouldn't be doing this.
If you honestly want to thwart junk like this don't support them by buying the merchandise. Essentially these companies are making money off from something that technically doesn't even exist. There is no tangible item that you can show to others and say see look what I bought with my hard earned money. At the end of the day when these companies end their business models the items go poof. So as I said certain gamers who support this kind of business model will get what they deserve in the end and that is nothing.
Spot on man.
I personally hate this kind of thing but no one should be surprised, gamers created this monster by purchasing microtransactions and cash shop items, if there wasn't a market for it, they wouldn't bother wasting resources to implement something like this, but there is and it is huge!
The only people that can change this mentality from big companies is the gamers. Once people stop buying their DLC's weeks after the game is released, spending up on cash shop items and supporting poor business practises the better the gaming industry will be but the power is in your hands.
I have been eagerly awaiting Destiny 2 on the PC but I will not spend a cent in their cash shop, I will most likely just grind out PvE content to pass time until I can group up with you guys in Pantheon :)
Kilsin said:I have been eagerly awaiting Destiny 2 on the PC but I will not spend a cent in their cash shop, I will most likely just grind out PvE content to pass time until I can group up with you guys in Pantheon :)
Everyone write letters to Brad and tell him to let Ben back in his group. They kicked him off Pantheon after the last stream for not pulling his weight in group. Poor Kilsin.
Evorus said:I am just going to say this, personally and just in my own opinion gamers are getting just what they deserve. With these micro-transactions they wouldn't exist if people didn't purchase all of these extra items. You can't blame the business for making their business model better. Its no different with any kind of transactions we may encounter in life. If there wasn't a market for it they wouldn't be doing this.
If you honestly want to thwart junk like this don't support them by buying the merchandise. Essentially these companies are making money off from something that technically doesn't even exist. There is no tangible item that you can show to others and say see look what I bought with my hard earned money. At the end of the day when these companies end their business models the items go poof. So as I said certain gamers who support this kind of business model will get what they deserve in the end and that is nothing.
You're right but at the same time the rest of us (that includes me) who don't play the RMT, cash shop game, have slowly seen our gaming choices dwindle due to this behaviour. I'll say it again, I report every botter I see, I detest them and what they do, and anything else that just brings the game down to the lowest denominator...Kronos is yet another thing I don't want to see ruining Pantheon. I am fed up with this kind of behaviour. Give me one game that I can play that isn't going to be destroyed by those kinds of elements being allowed. My hopes are set on Pantheon. Don't let me down VR and Pantheon community. :)
Cana
I am of the opinion that micro transactions in and of themselves are not bad. Selling extras to make some extra cash is fine by me, as long as they do not go too far.
Having items that cost 20, 30, 40+ dollars is just insane. Having items in the shop that increase the power or performance of the character is bad.
Having some cool cosmetic thing that does absolutely nothing for you gameplay wise, that’s perfectly fine by me. I have spent money in cash shops in some games. Not much because most of the stuff in there I just don't care about. I do agree that there is a fine line between P2W and a harmless cash shop.
But then, I will also say that some people are way too touchy about the issue. A cash shop does not have to be bad, and just because they exist doesn't mean a game is automatically P2W.
This match making algorithm is cheap IMO. It's a slimy way to drive sales, but can't blame them for trying something like this.
kellindil said:I am of the opinion that micro transactions in and of themselves are not bad. Selling extras to make some extra cash is fine by me, as long as they do not go too far.
Having items that cost 20, 30, 40+ dollars is just insane. Having items in the shop that increase the power or performance of the character is bad.
Having some cool cosmetic thing that does absolutely nothing for you gameplay wise, that’s perfectly fine by me. I have spent money in cash shops in some games. Not much because most of the stuff in there I just don't care about. I do agree that there is a fine line between P2W and a harmless cash shop.
But then, I will also say that some people are way too touchy about the issue. A cash shop does not have to be bad, and just because they exist doesn't mean a game is automatically P2W.
This match making algorithm is cheap IMO. It's a slimy way to drive sales, but can't blame them for trying something like this.
There are no good cash shops in games, period. They all move the development goals to driving cash shop sales and away from adding or fixing actual content. All of them.
Look, if microtransactions didn't bring in more cash than a simple game purchase and/or a subscription, nobody would do it. Games are implementing them because they are cash cows, mostly due to predatory practices. I don't mind paying for games. I just think any idea of fairness is basically lost. There is no possible relationship between development/maintenance costs and income when you're selling pixels with a marginal cost of zero. This is great for quarterly earnings reports but it's hurting games and gamers, as evidenced by lottery boxes in single player games or this match-making mechanism built to drive sales. And it will keep hurting until we start voting with our wallets and distancing ourselves from microtransactions altogether.
Sorry Kellindil but I disagree. It's not just the P2W aspect of cash shops that are annoying as hell for an MMO, it's also the harmless cosmetic stuff. In a game built on risk vs reward, where your accomplishments should actually mean something, there is no place for EZ mode cosmetic stuff. I played on the EQ2 TLP server a couple years ago ... I spent maybe $35 on a cloak/horse, a set of armor, and a weapon ... it was the first (and last) time I ever bought cosmetic stuff from an MMO cash shop. I thought I would get something cool and also help fund the game a little bit. After 6 months of playing that game my character looked exactly the same. There was nothing I could acquire in the game that was anywhere near as cool as the cosmetic stuff available in the "harmless cash shop." Cash shops don't belong in an oldschool MMO built on risk vs reward. Talk about a sad world ... you can play the game ... earn every achivement, kill every dragon or avatar ... but you'll never find something as awesome as what you can buy in your 24/7 online virtual store with a $6.99 sticker on it.
With all that said, I can agree with you in the sense that cash shops might be harmless in other games. If another game company doesen't value the integrity of their world, then sure, cash shops might be harmless. If another game world doesen't want their players to feel immersed, or instill a sense of earning your accomplishments ... again, cash shops would be fine for those games. Basically, if you have a garbage game that is basically the exact opposite of everything I am hoping Pantheon will be ... who cares if you have a cash shop. They aren't built from the ground up with integrity in mind, like Pantheon is. I don't think cash shops are evil ... I actually enjoy the one that League of Legends uses. ... I have probably spent a few hundred on skins for that game over the years. But that's an entirely different type of game where you have pre-determined champions ... the ONLY way to make your character look different in that game is by buying skins.
League has the most successful cash shop of any game ever, period ... and a lot of games are trying to duplicate their success. It just doesen't work for MMO's where your cosmetic appearance is something you can start altering as early as level 1. Games like Overwatch ... again, sure. If you are playing a programmed "hero" or "champion" then cosmetic stuff is fine. That isn't the case in MMO's ... we make our own characters from scratch and the process of gearing them up and taking them from rusty to platinum is a part of the adventure. MMO's see all the success that F2P games like League have and try to adapt their models and make it work for an MMO. It has literally caused this genre to tank. These greedy developers wanted to take an easy way out by milking the cash cow but once again, that crap just doesen't work in this genre. It ruined the integrity of these games. I don't want to see a cash shop of any kind, EVER. No kronos, no cosmetic, no XP potions, nothing.
daemonios said:kellindil said:I am of the opinion that micro transactions in and of themselves are not bad. Selling extras to make some extra cash is fine by me, as long as they do not go too far.
Having items that cost 20, 30, 40+ dollars is just insane. Having items in the shop that increase the power or performance of the character is bad.
Having some cool cosmetic thing that does absolutely nothing for you gameplay wise, that’s perfectly fine by me. I have spent money in cash shops in some games. Not much because most of the stuff in there I just don't care about. I do agree that there is a fine line between P2W and a harmless cash shop.
But then, I will also say that some people are way too touchy about the issue. A cash shop does not have to be bad, and just because they exist doesn't mean a game is automatically P2W.
This match making algorithm is cheap IMO. It's a slimy way to drive sales, but can't blame them for trying something like this.
There are no good cash shops in games, period. They all move the development goals to driving cash shop sales and away from adding or fixing actual content. All of them.
Look, if microtransactions didn't bring in more cash than a simple game purchase and/or a subscription, nobody would do it. Games are implementing them because they are cash cows, mostly due to predatory practices. I don't mind paying for games. I just think any idea of fairness is basically lost. There is no possible relationship between development/maintenance costs and income when you're selling pixels with a marginal cost of zero. This is great for quarterly earnings reports but it's hurting games and gamers, as evidenced by lottery boxes in single player games or this match-making mechanism built to drive sales. And it will keep hurting until we start voting with our wallets and distancing ourselves from microtransactions altogether.
I have to disagree. I have seen companiees be responsible with their cash shop. The game I play right now has a cash shop via their website, and yet 99% of the new art development in the game arrives as free patches and seasonal events. The stuff in the cash shop, for the most part, is stuff from old seasonal events that can't be obtained in game anymore, with the occasional exclusive item every few months. The rest of the cash shop is things like race change potions and so on. In fact there is only one controversial item there, one that allows new players to skip ahead past the original story content in the game, and even then they still end up two expansions behind everyone else. That item is as expensive as a boxed copy of the game and is limited to one per account. So, while I don't agree with the precedent it sets, I can't complain about their implementation.
I will admit that the majority of mmo cash shops are short term money grabs that are extremely damaging to their games, but i think it is possible to implement a cash shop responsibly and without compromising the integrity of the game. That said, I hope Pantheon never needs to think about adding one.
I disagree as well. It may be true in some instances, i fact I am sure it is, but that is not the rule and isn't true.
LOTRO was one of the first major games to go F2P with micro transactions and their development has been rock solid. They have been releasing quality content for years since. Last I had a look at their cash shop it was a very good example of how to do it well.
I will say that there are FAR more bad examples of cash shops than there are good, but there ARE good examples out there. People are FAR to jaded on the subject because of some very high profile game that went the wrong direction and the simple fact that you only hear about the bad examples and never the good.
Cash shops do not sell tangible items. You are not paying for pixels, you are paying for ENTERTAINMENT. When you pay for a movie, you pay for the experience. You don't get anything tangible back. When you buy a game, you are not buying the code. You are paying for the priviledge of experiencing the story or gameplay. You are paying for something that does not exist. You are paying for entertainment. This is true for many forms of entertainment. For some people, paying $1 for some non-existant outfit that makes their character look different is entertaining.
Selling of virtual items does not hurt gaming. Preditory sales practices and irresponsible business practices DO indeed hurt gaming. This can be said about ANY business sector. A company that is nothing but greedy and is irresponsible in their sales practices will end up hurting that market if their tactics succeed. It just shows everyone else what they can get away with, what consumers will tolerate.
If you want loot boxes and P2W to stop, then do not buy those types of items or from those cash shops. We SHOULD support responsible developers who take the time to ethically implament a cash shop in a free to play game. They need to make money as well. Not everyone out there can afford a subscription based game. I don't believe anyone should be deprived of a wonderful online experience because they cannot afford a subscription. Free to play games provide a wonderful option for some people, and a cash shop allows the developers the ability to let their fans pay them for their work in smaller increments.
All this said, I am not advocating Pantheon have a shop. I doubt VR will need one anyway. But cash shops are not inherently bad. They are just very easy to screw up.
The way I look at it is like bowling. You pay for entertainment. If you don't appreciate the challenge of the game you can put up kiddy rails. I do it for my daughter (she can barely get the ball all the way down the lane) ... but no matter how bad I am at bowling, I won't use them for myself. When I was younger I averaged around 75 ... it was really bad. I'm up to around 140 right now which is still pretty bad but I never would have gotten here if I used kiddy rails. The problem with gamers nowadays is they look at it more like an amusement park where you can buy a "fast pass." They don't want to wait around in line (and I can't blame them, I always buy the fast pass) but it's not the same thing.
Earning achievements in game, grinding levels, earning currency ... it's a part of the adventure. It isn't mindlessly waiting around several hours for your turn on the ride. Buying cosmetic gear is like going to a trophy shop and buying something for yourself that says "2017 Champion" ... or "Best Business in City X" ... you can do it, and display it to people ... but at the end of the day it means nothing. Cosmetic gear in an MMO (where earning visual upgrades is supposed to mean something) is the same thing as cheating in my eyes. I don't care if there are stats on the gear or not. Cool looking armor, weapons, mounts or house items should symbolize something in a fantasy game. If you skip out on earning them, you cheat yourself and everybody else who comes into contact with you.
Yes, and a cash shop that allows you to fast track to things are bad.
Buying a cosmetic is not progression. No matter how many times people try to say, "But they didn't earn it". Cosmetic BS is NOT progression.
If there is an in game reward for an achievement that is a cosmetic, and that cosmetic is sold in the store then YES. That is an example of a bad cash shop item.
But if they make some cosmetic exclusive to the store, and it is not tied in any way to any kind of in game progress. That is NOT part of progression.
I don't see how having some unrelated cosmetic in a shop takes away from the prestige of something granted in game.
As I said, the shop in and of itself is not the problem. Its proper implementation and making sure that cash shop stuff is separated from in game items entirely.
Now if something IS exclusive to the cash shop, that IS fine. It's optional. It doesn't grant any implied achievement and everyone in the game WILL know that it was purchased.
What you see as "cheating" I see as nothing more than someone being jealous that another person can get something they can't without spending money they do not wish to spend. Every time I see this argument I can't help but think that someone is envious.
DISCLAIMER: I am not directing this at anyone. I do not personally know anyone here. This is merely my opinion based on nothing more than my own personal interpretation. So, don’t get upset. I am not trying to insult anyone. Chill. Because someone always does.
It has nothing to do with envy. I shared an example a couple posts ago where I used a cash shop in an MMO on a TLP server. I played EQ2 for 5+ years when it first came out and earned everything the hard way. Second go around, I bought stuff from the cash shop. I never replaced any of it. The graphics of the cash shop gear were way better than anything obtainable in game. A level 1 newb could literally look "decked out" in the coolest gear in game ... giving off an impression that they were actually bad ass. But players soon learned that the "looks" of your gear meant nothing. That's garbage. They should mean something. Allowing people to circumvent the idea of "earning their looks" is what I am referring to when I called it cheating. I understand you said it wasn't directed at anybody in particular in your disclaimer but you also said "what you see as "cheating" I see as nothing more than someone being jealous."
It's not a big deal either way ... like I said, everybody has their own opinion on stuff. Where you might consider an angle of people feeling jealous or envious, I look at cash shops as a resource for people who want to pay their way into achieving something. They are too lazy to earn something in the game so they just buy their way through because they want to look and feel cool without actually being cool. Being cool, in an MMO, is doing great things. I'm not trying to insult people when I say that ... we live in an age of entitlement and participation trophies. A lot of new age gamers were raised to think that as long as they show up they will receive credit ... no need to work hard. Exclusivity is important in an MMO ... if you allow "exclusive cash shop items" it devalues the entire world. It's not a matter of wanting something that other people are willing to spend money on ... it's me NOT wanting those items in the game, at all.
Well, when I say YOU.. I was talking to you, but I didn't mean to say that you are just some jealous child or some such. I was not directing it at you as an insult. I merely meant that, when I see that reason That's the first thing that pops into my head. Obviously without knowing you personally I can't know what kind of person you are. I just meant I wasn't directing that part of my statement at you personally.
I just don't see the looking cool factor the same honestly. I could give a **** less what someone looks like. Because it usually means nothing. Then, you assume people who buy things from a cash shop are just lazy. Not everyone has the time to spend putting in 40+ hours to get some cosmetic so they can feel cool. So they settle for a less cool, but still pretty neat cosmetic from a cash shop so they can feel a bit better about their time that they DO put into the game. Sure, the cosmetic means less because it isn't something from an achievement, but it still gives them a bit of satisfaction and boosts their entertainment value.
I respect your opinion. I am not telling you that you're wrong. I am saying that EVERYONE on both sides of the argument tend to have slanted views and that there really isn't a right or wrong at the end of the day. A cash shop isn't ALWAYS bad, though I will say they are seldom good. But there can be a balance found between those who care and want to put in time to actually achieve something on their own skill, and those who don't want to, or can't put in the same time. Enjoyment should be universal, regardless if you're lazy or busy. There is room for both, it's just that balance is VERY hard to find.
The example of EQ2 here is an example of a failure. If the gear looked better than anything they released into the game, then they did it wrong. And I think we can all say Sony/Daybreak is not the shining example of a good cash shop. Thats the issue. There are FAR too many bad examples and people are turned off and quick to judge. We need to keep a more open mind on the subject. We do need to demand better from developers. And we do need to fight back with out wallets. When something is done in a cash shop we need to not engage. When things are done right, we should support that. We shouldn't just say that because 90% of devs out there did it wrong that everyone is so short sighted. There ARE valid reasons for cash shops. It CAN be done right.
I understand what you are saying Kell. An example that comes to mind is when WoW released an exclusive companion (pet that didn't do anything, basically a vanity item) where the funds were all donated to disaster relief. I can get behind something like that. I could probably think of some others but the main issue I think is that many people look at cash shops as a slippery slope ... we would rather avoid them altogether because of the fear that 90% of the time they are done wrong. We have high aspirations for Pantheon ... VR has so many things they are good at ... ideas/concepts that they helped invent a long time ago, and are looking to reinvent now. I'm not sure if any of them have any experience dealing with a cash shop but either way, due to the statistic failure of these shops in general I think it would be best if we just steer clear from them for as long as possible.
I will make a legitimate effort to see the other side of the coin here and maybe come up with an idea that might make sense. I absolutely despise cash shops but again I understand that they could have a purpose for some players as you put it. I can respect that, for sure. The tricky part, as you said, is finding a way to balance it. I don't care if people spend a few extra bucks to have a more entertaining experience ... I just want to make sure that it can't come at the expense of others. Cosmetic armor/weapons/mounts will do that. Maybe house items wouldn't. If people want to spend some money to buy a fish tank for their guild hall or whatever that wouldn't really bother me. It's their personal little space and I wouldn't have to see it unless I visited them.
Oh, believe me I know. Cash shops are very hard to do right. Very few have. And I completely understand why people are so against them.
I really just think people are too quick to shout no. No isn't the answer, honestly, because it WILL keep happening. I'm not talking Pantheon here, but in the gaming industry as a whole.
We all just need to accept that micro transactions are a part of our world now and make devs realize what they can and can't do. If they are smart they will listen eventually.
They see a route to more money, which is why they make games. They will continue to go that route. To build in micro transactions. Now we need to force them to get it right.
The other option is to see games take the route of every other piece of million dollar cost software and prices get doubled or worse.
Would you rather see cash shops or games cost $120+ Look at what it costs to purchase Windows.... Game development is on that scale now. Teams working for 5+years on a title costing 60 million to make. If not microtransactions, game prices WILL eventually rise.
Non pay to win cash shops (cosmetics only) and unlocks that aren't a ridiculous grind for a free to play game, whatever. That doesn't bother me too much.
Any cash shops or paid DLC for games I pay for? No. This is the worst crap and I hate how it's the norm now. In my day (hah!) games came out and received support/updates/content for a year or more at zero additional cost. FPS games (and other genres) didn't sell skins or sprays, players could make their own and use them free of cost. Remember when maps, weapons, characters, etc were just added to games free and everyone had access, when there was no issues of splitting playerbases who have or haven't bought these things?
It makes me absolutely sick seeing Bethesda trying to shift all their mods into their "Workshop" so that they can make a small profit off the work of others. I see where they are coming from with the argument that those putting in the time and effort making the mods should get some compensation...but at the same time it falls entirely flat to me because modders have been making mods free of charge for decades not expecting any money but because they simply wanted to and wanted to share with gamers at large their idea/creation.
Everything is nickel and diming the end user these days, selling parts of the whole. It's deplorable.