Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Future for pantheon AFTER release from a technical side

    • 21 posts
    October 16, 2017 12:19 PM PDT
    I was just wondering if anyone remembers anything about how Pantheon is being programmed and set up from a technical point of view. I'm sure it's been posted or said in streams. I watched the recent technical stream. It seems to be coming along very well and pushing limits.

    My question pertains for towards things like VR/AR, future engine updates, future graphics overhauls and things like that. Like is Pantheon being set up in a very C# style plug and play/module style? How about for DX12 and future versions.

    I ask these things because I have wondered why a company like blizzard barely overhauled the graphics of wow. Why so many companies have taken so long to upgrade to DX12 when it vastly improves over previous versions. Then there is the oncoming VR/AR revolution. After that you'll have things like anime virtual neural hookups like is SAO.

    Being from a development background I know that most of the time it's because devs gave 0 thought to future upgrades, or only considered tiny portions and didn't take a wholesome view.

    Was just wondering how the talented Pantheon devs are looking at it.
    • 2419 posts
    October 16, 2017 12:39 PM PDT

    Well the game is based on Unity, so whatever features Unity ends up supporting it is quite possible we'll see those features in Pantheon.  I would love to see VR as a possibility, provided it does not make me instantly want to vomit because of motion sickness

    • 557 posts
    October 16, 2017 12:47 PM PDT

    If you look carefully at some of the older streams, Joppa has a plug in the back of his neck.  He just imagines content and it materializes.

    Seriously though, I don't think the longevity of a game is tied nearly as much to graphics technology updates as some would lead you to believe.  Look at the number of people who kept going back to P99 with its 2002 era graphics or look at the insane following of MineCraft with its 8-bit graphics appearance.  If the gameplay is engaging, I don't need to see my group battling in 3D on my living room floor.   

    Game design teams have limited resources (time/money/tech) to invest and generally, this is better spent creating innovative IP and content rather than chasing the technology curve of the latest gaming platform.  Usually, it's more efficient to master and maximize your current tools and platform.  You end up with a more finished product because your focus was on your IP and not your tools.


    This post was edited by Celandor at October 16, 2017 12:48 PM PDT
    • 3852 posts
    October 16, 2017 12:49 PM PDT

    Try to put too much in and the game dies because release keeps getting delayed or you have things that most players don't want or don't have the equipment for. VR may fall into this category.

    To me, very important things are:

    1. Keeping very good documentation of everything in the code in a way that lets a barnd new (but technically capable) hire work with it. How often does one read that a game can't be changed in certain ways because code is 5 or 10 years old and no one understands it any more?

    2. Using a system that allows significant modernizations as the state of the art advances. It normally isn't cost-effective to switch engines totally because a new engine would reduce lag or make things prettier. So you want an engine that lets you adapt to DX15 without needing to spend an incredible amout of time or money. So you stay competitive in looks to games that may come out in 5 years.

    • 2886 posts
    October 16, 2017 1:03 PM PDT

    A few good thoughts about AR/VR compatibility from Zippyzee in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4327/how-will-pantheon-deal-with-the-future


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at October 16, 2017 1:04 PM PDT
    • 557 posts
    October 16, 2017 1:24 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    A few good thoughts about AR/VR compatibility from Zippyzee in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4327/how-will-pantheon-deal-with-the-future

     

    Looks like that's a VIP-only thread, Baz.

    Generally speaking though, I can see VR working but not so much AR.   I want to play Pantheon on Terminus, not in the snow-covered fields of Canada in mid-February.


    This post was edited by Celandor at October 16, 2017 1:26 PM PDT
    • 1860 posts
    October 16, 2017 1:36 PM PDT

    Bazgrim said:

    A few good thoughts about AR/VR compatibility from Zippyzee in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4327/how-will-pantheon-deal-with-the-future

    You are getting into the habit of posting links others don't have access to...

    • 3016 posts
    October 16, 2017 2:24 PM PDT

    Everquest has lasted 18 years without all that fancy technology...if the game play is good, if it has a hook, they will come and play quite happily.    I'm sure that VR will keep abreast of the current, latest things with Unity,  but as we saw with Vanguard,   (aside from the bugs and crashes) it was hard for some  people to play VG due to the age of their own computers.  Heard that complaint all the time...best to choose middle of the road,  not everyone can afford the latest screaming top of the line computers. :)   Keep it within the grasp of your average gamer, for the most part. :)

    • 1468 posts
    October 16, 2017 2:27 PM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Everquest has lasted 18 years without all that fancy technology...if the game play is good, if it has a hook, they will come and play quite happily.    I'm sure that VR will keep abreast of the current, latest things with Unity,  but as we saw with Vanguard,   (aside from the bugs and crashes) it was hard for some  people to play VG due to the age of their own computers.  Heard that complaint all the time...best to choose middle of the road,  not everyone can afford the latest screaming top of the line computers. :)   Keep it within the grasp of your average gamer, for the most part. :)

    That is the main thing I think. I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Vanguard didn't require such a good computer and didn't have all the bugs and crashes that it launched with. I'm pretty sure it would still be with us today.

    That is why I am so excited about Pantheon. It is chance to make a game that is in the same vein as EverQuest and Vanguard without all the problems associated with those games (please note I don't want Pantheon to be an exact copy of these games but taking a heavy dose of inspiration from them can only be a good thing).

    • 781 posts
    October 16, 2017 2:48 PM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Everquest has lasted 18 years without all that fancy technology...if the game play is good, if it has a hook, they will come and play quite happily.    I'm sure that VR will keep abreast of the current, latest things with Unity,  but as we saw with Vanguard,   (aside from the bugs and crashes) it was hard for some  people to play VG due to the age of their own computers.  Heard that complaint all the time...best to choose middle of the road,  not everyone can afford the latest screaming top of the line computers. :)   Keep it within the grasp of your average gamer, for the most part. :)

    Totally agree with ya Canadina.  :) 

    • 3852 posts
    October 16, 2017 4:41 PM PDT

    >Everquest has lasted 18 years without all that fancy technology...if the game play is good, if it has a hook, they will come and play quite happily.    I'm sure that VR will keep abreast of the current, latest things with Unity,  but as we saw with Vanguard,   (aside from the bugs and crashes) it was hard for some  people to play VG due to the age of their own computers.  Heard that complaint all the time...best to choose middle of the road,  not everyone can afford the latest screaming top of the line computers. :)   Keep it within the grasp of your average gamer, for the most part. :)<

    This is most certainly true. To attract enough people you definitely need at least decent graphics. If EQ came out today it would be so far behind in terms of how it looked not many people would give it a try to see how good it was as a game. But decent graphics doesn't require a bleeding edge engine. 

    But I definitely hope the engine they are using provides for upgrades so that 5 years from now they are still in the middle in terms of MMOs, not far behind.

    • 1281 posts
    October 18, 2017 5:50 PM PDT

    I would just like to see more consistent improvements to the world rather than only the most recent expansion.

    In EQ you could tell old zones from new zones becuase of how the graphics changed.

    How come you cannot upgrade the game engine and textures and have them replaced throughout the game so everything gets a facelift?


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at October 18, 2017 5:51 PM PDT
    • 98 posts
    October 19, 2017 3:25 AM PDT

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Everquest has lasted 18 years without all that fancy technology...if the game play is good, if it has a hook, they will come and play quite happily.    I'm sure that VR will keep abreast of the current, latest things with Unity,  but as we saw with Vanguard,   (aside from the bugs and crashes) it was hard for some  people to play VG due to the age of their own computers.  Heard that complaint all the time...best to choose middle of the road,  not everyone can afford the latest screaming top of the line computers. :)   Keep it within the grasp of your average gamer, for the most part. :)

    ^This^

    WoW takes an average machine to run it, and hardly updates visuals. So it's never a concern to people wanting to dabble.

    As for VR/AR, it's hardly a revolution. It's not even a ripple in an ocean. One day it will be a huge deal in gaming, but currently, the tech is not there. The combination of PC specs, being tethered, and nausea, means the everyday consumer is not interested. For it to be a "revolution" it has to be a must-have piece of gear. Smartphones, for example, seems everyone from the age of 10 upwards has one, my mother of 75 has one and texts me every day. This was a "revolution" VR/AR is a long way from this point.

    • 557 posts
    October 19, 2017 3:51 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    I would just like to see more consistent improvements to the world rather than only the most recent expansion.

    In EQ you could tell old zones from new zones becuase of how the graphics changed.

    How come you cannot upgrade the game engine and textures and have them replaced throughout the game so everything gets a facelift?

     

    I remember when Kunark launched that quite a few people were having trouble with their framerate dropping to unplayable levels in Emerald Jungle because the leaves in the trees were moving.

    The problem with changing the tech is it leaves customers behind until they can catch up with prerequisite hardware.

    As to why they can't "upgrade the engine and textures", that's a massive undertaking.  Without even thinking about the engine upgrade, consider that unique textures are applied in different zones.  Each zone had its own files.  You'd have to go through zone by zone and update them all.  Development resources were focused on building out new content rather than fixing the eye candy on old zones with every expansion.   If you remember when Luclin released, they did change up the character models substantially.  They also went back and did some zone revamps, which was nothing but heartbreak from my perspective.  I loved the nostalgia of the original zones.

    • 1315 posts
    October 19, 2017 4:42 AM PDT

    Scope Creep kills Companies

     

    In all seriousness though I am sure VR would love to release Pantheon for VR, man thats going to cause confusion, but any start up has to have a business plan that will get their product to market before the investment capital dries up.  Sadly some times that means the game needs scaled down to the raw basics that form it and the minimum IP that defines it.  Once you have a marketable product you can go back to investors to expand the scope for release with the knowledge that they could release as is and still have a product, much like Owlcat has done with the Kingmaker Pathfinder game.

    More to the OPs question though I believe Unity was picked in part due to its modular nature where future tech can be added onto the base code without requiring architecture level changes.  VR will have the opportunity to piggyback on innovations that other Unity developers create and make available on the marketplace, listening to the stream I imagine the lighting shader VR has developed could be repackaged and licensed back onto the marketplace.  Lastly due to the nature of Unity 2017 being the source from which different platforms can be compiled, as VR headsets becomes mass market viable it is likely Pantheon will be able to be recompiled for what ever platform that ends up being.

     

    Trasak

    • 2886 posts
    October 19, 2017 6:42 AM PDT

    philo said:

    Bazgrim said:

    A few good thoughts about AR/VR compatibility from Zippyzee in this thread: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/4327/how-will-pantheon-deal-with-the-future

    You are getting into the habit of posting links others don't have access to...

    Oh whoops! My bad. Been slackin on that haha


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at October 19, 2017 9:52 AM PDT
    • 39 posts
    October 19, 2017 7:53 AM PDT

    Jazznblues said:

    CanadinaXegony said:

    Everquest has lasted 18 years without all that fancy technology...if the game play is good, if it has a hook, they will come and play quite happily.    I'm sure that VR will keep abreast of the current, latest things with Unity,  but as we saw with Vanguard,   (aside from the bugs and crashes) it was hard for some  people to play VG due to the age of their own computers.  Heard that complaint all the time...best to choose middle of the road,  not everyone can afford the latest screaming top of the line computers. :)   Keep it within the grasp of your average gamer, for the most part. :)

    ^This^

    WoW takes an average machine to run it, and hardly updates visuals. So it's never a concern to people wanting to dabble.

    As for VR/AR, it's hardly a revolution. It's not even a ripple in an ocean. One day it will be a huge deal in gaming, but currently, the tech is not there. The combination of PC specs, being tethered, and nausea, means the everyday consumer is not interested. For it to be a "revolution" it has to be a must-have piece of gear. Smartphones, for example, seems everyone from the age of 10 upwards has one, my mother of 75 has one and texts me every day. This was a "revolution" VR/AR is a long way from this point.

     

    WoW does upgrade the graphics every 2-3 expansions and the system requirements keep changing. I know they had one with Wrath of the Lich King and Mists of Pandaria. This is why graphics are still somewhat descent. You can still run on it a lower end computer just need to adjust the settings. I remember multiboxing it on a single core 3GHZ processor with an Nvidia 6800 GTX computer until 2008ish.

    It all depends on the engine, how well they program it and the settings you can enable/disable. I'm sure there will be future updates to the game engine that will allow them to update the graphics. 

    • 1303 posts
    October 19, 2017 7:56 AM PDT

    Unity is a really strong, really flexible engine. It supports C# and UnityScript (proprietary to Unity) natively. But you can also use any number of .NET languages if you can compile compatible DLLs.  In the tech stream they talked about how they developed new things that no one had ever done in Unity before, and one or more of the above was probably how they did it. 

    I don't really have any concerns that VR is able to do anything they really want to do, given time and resources. But I share the concerns of others that scope creep, cost, delays, and client machine compatibilty could easily be more harmful than good. 

    • 1281 posts
    October 19, 2017 12:42 PM PDT

    Celandor said:

    I remember when Kunark launched that quite a few people were having trouble with their framerate dropping to unplayable levels in Emerald Jungle because the leaves in the trees were moving.

    The problem with changing the tech is it leaves customers behind until they can catch up with prerequisite hardware.

    As to why they can't "upgrade the engine and textures", that's a massive undertaking.  Without even thinking about the engine upgrade, consider that unique textures are applied in different zones.  Each zone had its own files.  You'd have to go through zone by zone and update them all.  Development resources were focused on building out new content rather than fixing the eye candy on old zones with every expansion.   If you remember when Luclin released, they did change up the character models substantially.  They also went back and did some zone revamps, which was nothing but heartbreak from my perspective.  I loved the nostalgia of the original zones.

    I understand a unique texture can be hard to justify. But placeables like trees, rocks, roads, grass, buildings, etc. should be reused throughout the game. Why would it cause a problem that when you replace rock texture x, y, and z that it updates all placements of those textures?


    This post was edited by bigdogchris at October 19, 2017 12:42 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    October 19, 2017 7:11 PM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    I understand a unique texture can be hard to justify. But placeables like trees, rocks, roads, grass, buildings, etc. should be reused throughout the game. Why would it cause a problem that when you replace rock texture x, y, and z that it updates all placements of those textures?

    Who wants a game where textures are just reused over and over again? EQ1 grew so stale because models and textures were just recycled expansion after expansion.  Even now you can see the same NPCs with the same textures 9 expansions after they were first introduced.  That's just lazy development.

     

    • 1303 posts
    October 20, 2017 5:33 AM PDT

    bigdogchris said:

    Celandor said:

    I remember when Kunark launched that quite a few people were having trouble with their framerate dropping to unplayable levels in Emerald Jungle because the leaves in the trees were moving.

    The problem with changing the tech is it leaves customers behind until they can catch up with prerequisite hardware.

    As to why they can't "upgrade the engine and textures", that's a massive undertaking.  Without even thinking about the engine upgrade, consider that unique textures are applied in different zones.  Each zone had its own files.  You'd have to go through zone by zone and update them all.  Development resources were focused on building out new content rather than fixing the eye candy on old zones with every expansion.   If you remember when Luclin released, they did change up the character models substantially.  They also went back and did some zone revamps, which was nothing but heartbreak from my perspective.  I loved the nostalgia of the original zones.

    I understand a unique texture can be hard to justify. But placeables like trees, rocks, roads, grass, buildings, etc. should be reused throughout the game. Why would it cause a problem that when you replace rock texture x, y, and z that it updates all placements of those textures?

    Because you don't upgrade textures with image files of the same resolution. It would be like upgrading your 5megapixel digital camera with... a 5megapixel digital camera. You improve the look of textures by going from a 500pixel x 500pixel file of say 1mb in size, to a 1500x1500 pixel file of 3mb in size. Triples the resolution. (Its actually not precisely this, but for ease of discussion...). 

    Now every time you enter a zone you're not loading 50 files of 1mb into memory. You're loading 50 files of 3mb into memory. Triples total memory required to render textures. 

    And this is  old eq file sizes/counts. Today the files can be bigger, and the number of texture files in use much higher. 

    • 1315 posts
    October 20, 2017 5:43 AM PDT

    Vandraad said:

    bigdogchris said:

    I understand a unique texture can be hard to justify. But placeables like trees, rocks, roads, grass, buildings, etc. should be reused throughout the game. Why would it cause a problem that when you replace rock texture x, y, and z that it updates all placements of those textures?

    Who wants a game where textures are just reused over and over again? EQ1 grew so stale because models and textures were just recycled expansion after expansion.  Even now you can see the same NPCs with the same textures 9 expansions after they were first introduced.  That's just lazy development.

     

    Listening to the most recent stream I believe most objects have procedurally generated color and bmp maps.  It is likely that a change to the procedure and a batch file to regenerate the items with a new map could be used to update the textures easily, at least compared to other games historically.  This actually opens up options for global changes to the world in future expansions as significant things happen in to the living story of Terminus.

    • 510 posts
    October 20, 2017 5:58 AM PDT

    Some day, after quantum computing fully integrates itself into gaming, we are going to look back at these discussions and laugh our butts off...

    • 1315 posts
    October 20, 2017 6:32 AM PDT

    Nephretiti said:

    Some day, after quantum computing fully integrates itself into gaming, we are going to look back at these discussions and laugh our butts off...

    Nah, by then we will be expecting games to have appropriately mapped tactile squishiness and taste . . . . you have always wanted to eat a crazy piece of fruit in a game right?  Not everyone will have the latest taste pallets and force feedback sensitivity levels but the rich guys will always have the best of the best.


    This post was edited by Trasak at October 20, 2017 6:35 AM PDT
    • 1303 posts
    October 20, 2017 7:09 AM PDT

    Trasak said:

    Nephretiti said:

    Some day, after quantum computing fully integrates itself into gaming, we are going to look back at these discussions and laugh our butts off...

    Nah, by then we will be expecting games to have appropriately mapped tactile squishiness and taste . . . . you have always wanted to eat a crazy piece of fruit in a game right?  Not everyone will have the latest taste pallets and force feedback sensitivity levels but the rich guys will always have the best of the best.

    Or we'll just connect the jack to the back of our skull, and everything will be "rendered" within our own minds. 

    [edit] And my grandkids will look back at this and say, "What's a jack?". 

     

    I remember in about 92' or so  a roommate of mine bought a 350mb (megabyte) hard drive. The 2nd roommate and I gave the 1st roommate endless greif about what an idiot he was. I mean, he spent like $500 bucks for that drive, and who in their right mind could possibly imagine ever using that much drive space? Ridiculous!


    This post was edited by Feyshtey at October 20, 2017 7:11 AM PDT