Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

What Makes A Good Quest?

    • 753 posts
    October 16, 2017 10:38 PM PDT

    Read any great quest in any fantasy novel.

    You will find an ordinary person surrounded by other ordinary people that, together, do extraordinary things not because they want to... but because they have to.  Along the way they meet and join up with other ordinary, and sometimes not so ordinary people.  They struggle.  They experience highs and lows.  Good and bad.  Success and failure.  They endure pain, heartache, and doubt... which gets countered by love, light, and reaffirming small moments of joy.  

    You, the reader, are sucked into the novel.  You become part of the heroes party.  You feel the pain they feel... suffer the loss they suffer... and you feel triumphant and joyous when they ultimately succeed.

    That, to me, is the nature of a good quest.

    It is something with a purpose that I feel compelled to do.  It is something that requires more from me than I am able to do alone.  Before I finish it, like the characters in a book, it makes me experience an emotional roller coaster of epic proporitons... because emotions are ultimately what makes it great, makes it memorable... good emotions, bad emotions.  Make me FEEL the quest, don't just give me a quest to DO.  

    Because, you see, those emotions will have been experienced with other living, breathing players.  They will form the basis of stories we tell others and re-tell ourselves.  "Hey, do you remember when we died 30 billion times trying to get that thing for your quest?" 

    Give me a quest that does that... that sucks me in into the world, makes me part of the world... that helps me form lasting bonds with other players.  Because if you do, you will have created a great quest.

     


    This post was edited by Wandidar at October 16, 2017 10:39 PM PDT
    • 28 posts
    October 17, 2017 4:45 AM PDT

    I agree with much of what has been said so far. Personally, I look at it in terms of quest types as well as rewards. 

    Access Quests

    As mentioned above, I really like access quests primarily because they bestow a permanent benefit on my character. I think of it like assembling a massive keyring. However, I know a lot of folks don't like using access quests to block zones, so perhaps use access quests to speed up entry to certain areas. For example, the first time you enter a zone, you may need to fight through mobs for two hours to reach the top of the tower. At the top of the tower is the Arch Mage who drops good loot and is a great xp spot. However, a quest exists that gives you access to a portal/elevator that takes your group up to the top floor immediately. If someone in your group has completed the quest, the group can portal up directly to the Arch Mage room. Alternatively, completion of this quest enables you to teleport to a new part of the zone.

     

    Building Block Quests

    I do very much like the very long quests with intermediate rewards along the way. The Coldain 10th Ring quest from EQ was mentioned before. To me, the best parts of this quest were (1) the quest had intermittent rewards that were could be used, (2) the quest could be started and useful at low level, but still continued and valuable at max level, (3) it required significant solo effort with support from groups/raid for completion, (4) it required multiple elements of MMO gameplay, such as factioning, crafting, killing/farming, and travel. 

    Quest Rewards

    Overall, I'm a fan of massively complex quests that grant a tiny, but permanently useful bonus to the quest completer. I'm comfortable NOT receiving gear as rewards for quests, particularly weapons because they are so key for melee classes. To me, rewards for the complex "epic level" quest should fall into the following categories:

    1 - Clicky item that is useful. I think Pantheon needs to be wary of giving away other classes' defining abilities to the masses as it dilutes class uniqueness. Basically, don't give clicky items with levitation, enhanced run speed, or things such as that. A good clicky item might include a 30-second buff where all of your heals/nukes critical (on a 30 minute cooldown) or a temporary massive increase in fire resistance.

    2 - Quality of Life enhancements. I think it would be cool to have a quest line that is as lengthy as an Everquest epic but results in a massive bag that has twice the capacity as the largest bags at the time. Subsequent expansions could build upon the quest line to grow the bag size slightly.

    3 - Minor permanent stat increases: I really liked the EQ Dragons of Norrath quest rewards. In return for completing the expansion, you received a permanent increase to health/mana, critical chance, spell resistance, etc. This made completing the expansion valuable, but not required, for the lifetime of the game.

    4 - Unique but non-game breaking spells/abilities. I really like the concept of spell and ability "ranks." Basically, the most basic spells can be bought off of merchants, but either stronger versions of the spells (for dmg/heal oriented ones) or unique spells had to be found through questing and adventuring. For example, I think Teleportation and Translocation spells should require the user to reach the location the "long way" first.

     

    • 257 posts
    October 17, 2017 5:10 AM PDT

    Specific to starter questline (tutorial) for new game: I would like to see two quest lines. One that introduces/ connects new character to his/her race and another to his/her class. These conversations should have the goal of giving purpose and longterm goals.

    • 338 posts
    October 17, 2017 5:16 AM PDT

    A good quest is one that can be tackled from multiple angles. Where 10 people doing the quest will all do it in a slightly different way.

     

    These kind of quests are always my favorite because it's fun to think outside the box and I like more emergent style of gameplay.

     

    If you create enough content like this the world really comes alive with everyone trying different things instead of just a cookie cutter approach being the best way.

     

     

    Thanks in advance,

    Kiz~

    • 238 posts
    October 19, 2017 1:27 AM PDT

    My thoughts,

     

    -Don’t make quest components require camping a single mob in a very remote location with no benefit to groups that may be required to help. If I need a group worth of players to kill my target there should be other rewards for my group even if it’s just experience.

     

    -Visual quest item drops go a long way in the immersion field. The difference between looting the head of the orc traitor into my inventory and just getting a checkbox in my journal is huge.

     

    -Rewards should not yield experience

     

    -Don’t make items needed for quest be valuable to other classes as equipment, like in EQ rogue epic were you needed a nice caster robe for a rog dagger. Now you have conflict between who should get drops.

     

    -Quest should be a vessel for learning about an area or culture. If the quest could be transplanted to any other random zone with little change its not meaningful enough.

     

    -Not a big fan of quests that require talking to someone that can also be killed for rewards for others. Begging others not to kill a mob so you can talk to them is not fun.

     

    -Not a fan of the quillamane style camp. If I have enough dedication and time I should eventually get a target I’m camping. Having a near random wandering spawn point with random looking PH is just to stressful.

    • 98 posts
    October 19, 2017 3:38 AM PDT

    I think a quest line that pulls you into the lore or class of your character. So at level 1 an item/situation/story is hinted at, this leads you along a single quest line for your entire journey to max level. It could lead you across the world, into the deepest dungeons, help people, anything that relates to your class.

    This is the kind of thing that pulls me into the lore and the mindset of my character. The quest can have branches that affect your alignment/reputation. You find out about a plague-ridden village, do you go and cure the plague, investigate the cause, or burn the village to the ground to stop it spreading?

    • 1315 posts
    October 19, 2017 11:03 AM PDT

    In my opinion there are two types of quests; Story Quests and Commerce Quests.  Both types of quests can increase immersion and player attachment when used correctly or can feel like pointless tedious drivel or a Story on Rails when used incorrectly.

    Story quests are great when they tell a story from beginning to end in the quest chain cycle with real choices and real rewards or consequences when the story finishes, think choose your own adventure books.

    Commerce quests can drive an attachment to a specific area just due to the high risk vs reward commerce quest can and should provide but on a small and incremental scale.  You won’t find the Epic Sword of Epicness™ from a repeatable commerce quest but if you participate in the local economy enough it is reasonable to assume you can acquire a complete set of gear that the local craftsmen have to offer.

    The best of both worlds is when you can complement both types of quests by weaving them into a flowing narrative where both make sense and are not forced.  I will attempt to write up an example of how I can see the two tie together in long story form.

    Skip if you want to avoid Trasak’s poor attempt at creative story telling where he makes up names and areas because he hasn’t taken the time to read much of the lore yet.

    A rotund, well dressed, human walks in front of a large cart pulled by an unhappy looking Ogre in silly looking green livery.  The sides of the cart are opened down either side displaying hundreds of bottles of sparkling green liquid in distinct looking bottles on red velvet lined shelves and securely padded to avoid rattling.

    The rotund man takes a deep breath and hawks,

    “Come one, come all.  Get your hands on the cure for the gloomy, sluggish day’s winter. The elixir of power that will push you through draining afternoons of summer heat. The tonic that will keep you alert and alive through the night time watch out in the dangerous mountains.  The Alchemists of Shadowsong Hollow are renown throughout Terminus for their sparkling green elixir of stimulating energy known as Plains Dew™.  You have the opportunity to buy up the only stock for sale as I am the exclusive distributor of Plains Dew™.  A steal at 5 silver a bottle or 5 gold a case, and at that I’m cutting my own purse. Get it before some clearing house buys up my entire stock and doubles the price!”

    A man in the sailors garb of Skargol snarks, “I’ve sailed all over Terminus and I ain’t never ‘erd nothing about no Plains Dew™, bet your just passing off Orge piss as some snake oil.”

    The merchant responds, “I am wronged good nauticalite. I sell only the genuine article, notice the guild mark of the glass blowers Mistyfalls on the shatter resistant bottles.  Only the best for the Alchemists of Shadowsong.  I can assure you that while Plains Dew is not well know on Reignfall its is the go to pick me up for Kingsreach, I would say 4 cases for you would make you a tidy profit when you return to Skargol.”

    A lady elf in woodsman garb laughs derisively, “I’ve ranged all over the Steppes of Ru’Lun and Wild’s End and I have never heard of Plains Dew™ or the Alchemists of Shadowsong.  That’s likely the product of some barnyard brewer using left over ink bottles.”

    Flustered the merchant sputters, “Madame, please, one taste of Plains Dew™ and you will know its powers are real.  It is no product of an amateur but that of a master Alchemist, he may be a bit odd and reclusive but he has no match and will only sell to me in bulk.  If you had come here to Faerthale more often than I am certain you would be familiar with Plains Dew™.

    Seeing the woodswoman looking more thoughtful he spots a familiar faces in the crowd and pleads, “Mrs. Stockingwasher, you bought a case from me last month, for another bottle on me why don’t you tell these folks about the wondrous effects of Plains Dew™.”

    Looking slightly embarrassed Mrs. Stockingwasher timidly responds, “Don’t know about wondrous but if it’s the same stuff as you called Shock™ last month it was sweet and bubbly.  It did make me a bit jittery and I had a horrible time falling asleep later that evening.  Now that I think about it my teeth did look a bit darker the next day too, maybe that was cause some ink was left in the bottle.  Anyway I brought back the other 11 bottles and you can keep your freebee and give me the 5 gold back.”

    With a burst of laughter the crowd disperses about their business, the show over.  Angrilly the ogre pulls off his foolish looking hat, throws it in the face of the merchant and stalks off muttering, “Stupid human.”

    Completely defeated the merchant looks at you and tosses a bottle to you and says, “On the house, tell your friends.  . .” He puts the foolish hat on his own head and begins laboriously dragging the large cart down the street to the poorer end of the city.

    Looking down you inspect the bottle with your magical perception.  You get a sense of a minor speed and awareness increase and likely a removal fatigue if it weren’t diluted by something.  You also spot the residue of what you believe is black oak ink at the bottom of the bottle, which is mildly poisonous.

    Asking around you are able to find out that the merchant came through the east gate with his ogre and cart early this morning.  Searching along the eastern road heading toward Mistyfalls you find a small empty campsite.  Searching around the camp you find two empty crates marked with Mistyfalls Ink Emporium, Long lasting Black Oak Gall Ink.  A small warning label reads, “Poisonous if ingested, seek medical help immediately if ingested.” 

    Next to the crates is a small wooden barrel of crude make.  On the side of the barrel is painted Medovins Life Water batch #213.  The bottom of the barrel is branded with Songs Hollow Coopers.

    Back in Faerthale you are able to consult with a cartographer that Songs Hollow is a small town south east of Mistyfalls on the edge of the Silent Plains.  For an extra silver he lets you know that every now and then an order comes in for powerded White Shale and strong fiber cords from Songs Hollow and will likely fetch a nice price there.  From your work around the river docks in Faerthale you know that the boat men will trade you spare strong fiber cords if you bring them old cloths or empty crates.  Also along the river are the Halfling Clamers.  White Shale is actually ground up and bleached river clam shells and is useful in many different trades.  If you help the halflings pull their traps out of the river they will let you take all the shells they have laying around.

    After several days of work walking up and down the river pulling out clam traps, collecting the occasional discarded barrel or crate and whatever rag you can find you fill your pack with Heavy Fiber Cord and pounds of powdered white shale.  You team up with a big beefy Ogre sporting blackened armor that looks slightly worse for wear and a Dark Myr cleric who keeps combing her hair with a fork.  Both are looking to head out to the Silent Plains and are willing to accompany you on the two day Journey to Songs Hollow.

    At several points along the way you are forced to run off hungry predators and the Ogre Dire Lord fell through the planks of a rotten bridge and got stuck for over an hour, but overall the trip was uneventful.  Upon reaching Songs Hollow you realize that this poor provincial town is actually fairly bustling with activity and industry.  After an obnoxious hunter in red chases off a girl just trying to read a book you are able to find the tradesmen area. Asking around you find out that the leather workers always are looking for heavy cord as Plains elk hide goods are one of the primary products of Songs Hollow. 

    Asking around no one seems to know who usually is interested in powdered White Shale.  Just when you are about to give up and just sell your stock to the pawn shop you notice a bar patron in the corner perk up when you mention White Shale and his eyes practically bulge out of his head when he hears you have 15 pounds of the stuff. 

    You walk up to the gentleman and ask him, “Are you interested in White Shale?”

    Looking you up and down the man says, “Maybe I do, maybe I don’t Traveler.  What’s it to you? I don’t know you or what shard you are from.”

    You reply, “Please tell me about white shale.”

    The man scoffs. “I’m not just going to tell you, a stranger, about white shale. Trade secret that is.  For information that valuable I have to trust you that you won’t go blabbering to everyone about it.  I would need proof that you are reliable and trustworthy.”

    You say, “What proof can I provide you?”

    The man looks thoughtful, “Hmm, I didn’t really expect you to be willing to prove yourself.  I’ll tell you what.  I’ve been needing to up to the hills to collect a few things that can be only gotten there.  The last three times I have tried I have been run off by goblins to get what I was after.  If you come with me tomorrow morning and watch my back all day as I get what I need I will tell you what is so special about White Shale.”

    You say, “Ok I will meet you here to watch your back tomorrow”

    Seeing the Dark Myr and the Beefy Ogre eating at the same table in the corner you walk up and see if they can put off heading out into the plains for a few days and go on a little adventure tomorrow.  They both agree with the caveat that no rotten bridges are involved.

    After securing the assistance of the cleric and Dire Lord for tomorrow’s task you start searching for Medovin but no one has any clue of anyone by that name but the cooper is easy enough to find.  After a quick chat with the cooper you learn that barrel you have is called a quarter hog and it is what he has his apprentices practice on.  They make literally dozens a month while training and they end up all over the place and often in the fire as they rarely hold together long.  The cooper also has no clue who Medovin is but if you want any more of those barrels just bring him a bundle of birch staves and he will have his apprentices whip some up.

    The next morning you meet up with the man from the bar after collecting your two travelling companions.  He introduces himself as Roger Clang and says that they will need to travel about 6 miles up into the foot hills and will be looking for areas with yellow looking mud.  He also warns that once we hit the heavy forest line is when we need to start being more alert for goblins as that is where he is usually run off, unfortunately none of the yellow mud remains below the tree line.

    In about two hours you reach the tree line.  It doesn’t take long for you to feel like you are being watched but you suspect that the hulking form of the Ogre keeps would be predators at bay.  After another hour of searching Roger spots what he is looking for and runs over a rock out cropping with yellow mud.  He pulls out a small vial and pours a drip on the mud then curses.

    “This low land clay is just not pure enough.  Too many things mix in and foul it up.  We are going to need to go higher up if we want a better.  I won’t ask you to go any higher as it will get much more dangerous as we will be entering goblin lands.  I’d rather not settle for this deposit but its better than nothing.  What do you think, should we turn back here or push our luck for a better sample?”

    You respond, “Let’s push our luck.”

    With a grin Roger says, “Excellent, I was hoping you would say that.  If we can get a full pack load of the good stuff I will definitely make it worth your while.  I won’t likely have an opportunity this good for a while again.  With this deposit here we should only need to go straight up this valley to purer samples.”

    Before long goblin totems begin showing up on trees and rocks.  Clear signs that you are indeed in the woods.  After another agonizing hour Roger points at a different rock outcropping with a large ugly stick man scarecrow sitting on top and wheezes, ”I can see the deposit from here, lets hope we can fill our packs and get out of there before we are spotted.”

    Roger rushes over to the deposit and repeats his earlier testing process, “Still not even high grade but better than I have ever seen, what I would give for a pure deposit.  I’ve heard they can still be found up near the alpine line but who goes up there, that’s mountain troll territory.  Keep an eye out while I dig this out, I’d have you help but no offense you three would just muck up the sample.”

    You motion to the other two and say, “Spread out a bit and make sure nothing jumps him, I’ll take over there.”  As you move off you notice a stand of young birch and make yourself useful and collect a bundle of staves.  After another interminable period Roger says, “Ok, I think I have as much as we can really carry back.  Come over and fill your packs.”

    At that moment an arrow thunks into Rogers side and 6 goblins come scream up from a different rock downhill from us, where none of us were looking.  With the efforts of the Beefy Ogre to intimidate the goblins into focusing on him, the Dark Myr waving her fork/hair brush around and your own abilities you manage to turn the assault back on the attackers.  What began as an ambush turns into a route.  With goblins taking flight, one literally due to an awesome blow by the ogre, the Dark Myr rushes over to Roger and begins to channel the dark waters as you withdraw the arrow from his side.

    Sitting up and puffing Roger says, “I thought we were done for.  I owe you three my life.  When we make it back to town I will teach you the secrets of White shale and the yellow clay.  Both are required to make Wushu folded steel taught to me by the monks of Sky Cliffs and if so inclined I will teach you myself.”

    With that Roger pulls out a glowing green vial and pours about a third into a full canteen and shakes it up.  He takes drink then hands it to you and says, “Drink this, it will help shake off the fatigue of battle and keep you alert on our trek back to Songs Hollow.”

    Inspecting the canteen you sense the same speed and awareness boost but at a stronger strength and a full strength fatigue removal effect you sensed in the Plains Dew™ without the poisonous after taste.

    In surprise you ask Roger, “Do you know Medovin?”

    Roger throws his head back and laughs, “Ha, is that old goat still disguising his name?  His name is actually Dovin’Me.  Its not even like it’s a good alias.  He is a crazy dwarf enchanter in town.  He is trying to reproduce an ancient elixir of his people without any of the ingredients available.  When we get back to town Ill introduce you.”

    Ding quest line complete!

     

     

    Bloody long story short by combining repeatable commerce quests and longer chain story quests you can begin to weave longer story lines that being to spread out.  Each new step is both an opportunity for players to collect consumable resources and drive interest into new areas.  Just in the process of writing this up I came up with a dozen other branches including a raid into the Troll Mountains to get the materials to create master quality WuShu folded steel blades, goblin cave splunking to get higher quality materials and to make the hills outside of Songs Hollow safer, quests ranging into the Silent Plains hunt Plains elk, side quests with Dovin’Me to delve deeper into dwarven lore and alchemy, the list goes on.

    Additionally if Dovin’Me or Roger Clang had a shop where they sold their goods they could also offer quests for the ingredients they needed.  Based on what they have already received their rewards for the different ingredients could go up or down based on what was needed most to complete more product.  If the crafters had a huge abundance of materials then the prices of their items could drop but if they had not received any ingredients for a long time then the prices would be sky high or not show up at all.  Also an industrious player could get concentrated Plains Dew™ from Dovin’Me, dilute it safely, travel to Reignfall and sell it for a huge profit, once you hired your own ogre in a foolish hat of course.

     

    My humble thoughts, thank you for taking the time to read and I apologize for my terrible writing skills, designs and numbers are my thing not words.

    Trasak

    • 178 posts
    October 20, 2017 1:05 AM PDT

    IMHO,

     

    quests should teach the lore of the area, it should be a small story that reveals some parts of the zone with its history.

    and reward reputation ,currency and vanity items only, not XP and not gear!

    the only quests that should reward gear are tradeskill quests (blacksmith, tailor quest etc) and endgame epic quests.

    also, I think every five or ten levels the class trainer will give you long quest chain that you must finish in order to get to the next level.

    this quest will involve defeating a group dungeon. (if you havent finished this quest, you cant level up and cant get any XP at all)

     

    • 65 posts
    October 20, 2017 1:20 AM PDT


    One thing I hate the most in games nowadays is that you outlevel way too quickly the gear, for instance in SWToR you looked really bad ass at lvl10 then at 11-12-13 you start getting different pieces of gear and you start looking like a clown because the looks you like from the previous tier is no longer there.

     

    This has to be fixed with this game.. I  hope if you find a interesting item at level 8.. that you could still be wearing it at 30.  I hope items are so rare that you feel special when you earn it.  WOW destroyed this feeling.  I believe VR knows this so we should be ok.


    This post was edited by Demostorm at October 20, 2017 1:21 AM PDT
    • 1315 posts
    October 20, 2017 5:33 AM PDT

    Demostorm said:


    One thing I hate the most in games nowadays is that you outlevel way too quickly the gear, for instance in SWToR you looked really bad ass at lvl10 then at 11-12-13 you start getting different pieces of gear and you start looking like a clown because the looks you like from the previous tier is no longer there.

     

    This has to be fixed with this game.. I  hope if you find a interesting item at level 8.. that you could still be wearing it at 30.  I hope items are so rare that you feel special when you earn it.  WOW destroyed this feeling.  I believe VR knows this so we should be ok.

    The longevity of an item is a factor of the percentage of a player’s combat power provided by items and the 1-10 value that item has for a character of that level, 1 being effectively naked and 10 being best in slot.  If only 10% of the players’ power comes from items and there are 10 item slots then any item can realistically be used at any time as each one only really has a 1% effect.  If on the other hand 90% of the characters combat power is based on gear, as it is in WoW, then having a rank 10 item in every slot can be very important.

    Some of the issue with needing to upgrade gear is also a function of what a level means.  In most modern MMOs and d20 table top RPGs, when factoring in items, power increases at an exponential rate.  If instead leveling was logarithmic in increases or fairly high Y intercept with a shallow linear increase then both gear and world content becomes more universally relevant and usable.

    I don’t want to derail this quest question any further but if level is more about variety than power a whole host of other options are available but the long term game play will be significantly different then what is out there now.

    • 5 posts
    June 15, 2018 5:39 AM PDT

    Full disclosure, i did not read the other posts in this thread.

     

    I want a quest(s) that takes a while to complete with some substance. Not just, go there, kill 5x, come back. Maybe something i can sink 1 or 2 hours into.

    I am very tired of MMO's that gives you 10x quests in a hub and sends you back and forth for some instant gratification..

     

    I also miss group quests.. Where we have to fight harder mobs... I hate soloing :)

    • 209 posts
    June 15, 2018 6:58 AM PDT

    For me, a good questline, first and foremost, will not hold your hand. It will give you enough general direction to get you going, but it will let you figure out the details for yourself. The story should be unique and fairly deep--not a "kill ten rats and collect their pelts" kind of thing. It should take you to different locations--possibly all over the world. And it should require you to really think about what you have to do next.

    I'm happy with all kinds of rewards. Weapons, armor, gold, etc. is all good. But I always think it's cool when the longest and most challenging quests reward you with a special class ability...and it's even better if you get to choose between different options.

    • 3852 posts
    June 15, 2018 7:21 AM PDT

    More than one person has criticized the "kill 10 rats" type of quest. 

    It is hard to say that this is an exciting quest that shows great developer creativity and challenges the player - though it can be *very* challenging if there are more players than rats and Pantheon encourages competition rather than cooperation by not allowing quest credit for shared kills.

    But I find this type of quest quite desirable to supplement more interesting quests.

    Personally I prefer a reason other than pure self-aggrandizement to do things. Yes I can grind a camp of rats as well as anyone else but I will do it more happily if I have been told that they are biting babies, killing pet cats, spreading disease, voting for ((insert party or candidate you hate)) or doing other things that justify the slaughter.

    I do agree that kill 10 rats is trivial unless they are *very* big rats. Make it 100. Even if the quest reward is less than the experience from killing even 25 of the rats it adds a little and gives a cause.

    • 81 posts
    June 15, 2018 7:23 AM PDT

    I prefer quests which are lateral in design, suprising and yet intuative. I think EQ did a pretty bad job at this. I did enjoy the EQ Elite quests greatly, but I think this is a pretty rare example of a good quest back in the day. In some cases, not all, it required a GM or someone with inside knowledge to solve a quest and then for others to post it online so the majority of people could catch up. Also, the rewards never really measured up to the effort involved, at least pre-pop.

    'Secret World' did a fantastic job with their quest lines. In my opinion the reason why they were so good is they invoked emotion; joy, fear, horror, sadness even. And they did it in such a way as to remain intuative in a challenging and yet not impossible to solve kind of way.

    In answer to the original post:

    "What, in your opinion, makes a good questline and what do you prefer as quest rewards?"

    I believe a great deal of effort should be applied to make the questlines emotive and intuative, cryptic and yet not impossible. As for rewards, they almost don't matter, as long as you get the journey right.

    Blood.

    • 643 posts
    June 15, 2018 7:35 AM PDT

    Meaningful, difficult, obscure quests, that are tied deeply to the lore.

     

    The Mage epic and the cleric epic quests in EQ were amazing and valuable for a very long time.

     

    Probably my favoirite quest was the Warden Symbol of Tunare.  It took months to complete and I don't know of a single other person who ever did it.   

     

    I want really complicated quests where I need to keep a notebook and checklist (outside of the game!) - I don't want some stupid "kill and collect five rat skins" to be considered a real quest.  Nor do I want some in-game progress meter that dumbs everything down.  I want to actually do research, keep track of things, figure stuff out, be totally wrong.

     

    And, most importantly, I want ther eto be misinformation and rumours and urban legends :  like how to spawn Quillmane, or how to hail an NPC to get flagged for PoT etc.

     

     

    • 81 posts
    June 15, 2018 7:42 AM PDT

    fazool said:

    I want to actually do research, keep track of things, figure stuff out, be totally wrong.

     

    I'd like that too, it sounds pretty cool.

    Blood.

    • 319 posts
    June 15, 2018 7:45 AM PDT

     My idea of a good quest should involve both aspects of the game. Crafting and exploring, as well as leveling.The longer the quest the more exp should be rewarded. The "kill ten rats quest" is fine for beginning levels but they should not be followed  by the same type quest for higher levels. Make the quests fun but challenging enough so you can get enjoyment out of completing them in a timely matter. Make the timer working only during online play and shut off when offline.

     I also would like to see epic type quests  with nice rewards every 10-15 levels so you can get nice rewards that maybe adjust levels as you level. Make these items class dependent and lore. But always keep quests fun and challenging, that is the purose of gaming in my opinion.

    • 209 posts
    June 15, 2018 7:46 AM PDT

    dorotea said:

    More than one person has criticized the "kill 10 rats" type of quest. 

    It is hard to say that this is an exciting quest that shows great developer creativity and challenges the player - though it can be *very* challenging if there are more players than rats and Pantheon encourages competition rather than cooperation by not allowing quest credit for shared kills.

    But I find this type of quest quite desirable to supplement more interesting quests.

    Personally I prefer a reason other than pure self-aggrandizement to do things. Yes I can grind a camp of rats as well as anyone else but I will do it more happily if I have been told that they are biting babies, killing pet cats, spreading disease, voting for ((insert party or candidate you hate)) or doing other things that justify the slaughter.

    I do agree that kill 10 rats is trivial unless they are *very* big rats. Make it 100. Even if the quest reward is less than the experience from killing even 25 of the rats it adds a little and gives a cause.

    Oh yeah, I actually totally agree with this. I should clarify that I hope there will be many quests that require grinding mobs for one reason or another, as I do think it can be a lot of fun. I just hope it's presented in a thoughtful way in the story so that it keeps you immersed in the world. Even better is when the quest requires you to travel a good distance just to find the enemies you need to grind. Things like this make it feel more like a real quest to me, rather than a glorified game of pac-man. From what I've seen of the perception system so far, I think they're definitely on the right track.

    • 209 posts
    June 15, 2018 7:59 AM PDT

    fazool said:

    Meaningful, difficult, obscure quests, that are tied deeply to the lore.

    I want really complicated quests where I need to keep a notebook and checklist (outside of the game!) - I don't want some stupid "kill and collect five rat skins" to be considered a real quest.  Nor do I want some in-game progress meter that dumbs everything down.  I want to actually do research, keep track of things, figure stuff out, be totally wrong.

    And, most importantly, I want there to be misinformation and rumours and urban legends :  like how to spawn Quillmane, or how to hail an NPC to get flagged for PoT etc.

    Yep, exactly!

    • 59 posts
    June 15, 2018 8:15 AM PDT

    Quest to me, in an mmo, lore based  telling me what is going on that village/town, that area, that region, that landmass, that world. The quest giver has always been a factor to me in the reward. Meaning, if I get a quest from some poor lady on the street, I wouldn't expect to get a king's ransom. I have never understand why quest give experience either. Gold, rep, maybe a shiney new item (within reason), materials, etc, fine. 

    • 432 posts
    June 15, 2018 8:34 AM PDT

    It has been already said (notably by Vandraad) but I must repeat it as preambel .

    Do not call tasks quests . Ever .

    By using the same word for 2 completely different concepts, it becomes impossible to answer clearly even simple questions like the Kilsin's one .

    Tasks are something that doesn't really need NPCs, dialogues, lore, (great) skills, much time or thinking . "Qeynos has a rat infestation, go and kill rats and bring their tails to the Antivermin manager for reward ." This is a task . It doesn't need more than 20 words and is self explaining. There can be and probably will be tasks in Pantheon . Some people will do them and some won't . But it has nothing to do with questing .

    A good questline has for me 2 main properties .

    1) It makes sense from the psychological point of view .

    A weeping mother tells me that her son has disappeared and asks if I could help . This makes sense . Every mother would ask the same thing . An ambitious Magus has spent decades looking for a powerful artefact he craves for and asks me to get it while disclosing to me (a nobody he never met !) all his precious research results which allow to find it . This makes no sense . In reality he would divide to reign and would certainly not allow that some stranger uses his hard acquired knowledge, gets the precious and runs away with it . That's why the quests I like most are trade skill quests which make supremely sense . It is like a PhD dissertation - you must prove to your Guild master that your skills are adequate BEFORE he algrees that you may access to new secrets and new skills . More generally all quests that look like a "rite of passage" (f.ex class quests) make much sense . An absolute no no are good characters who ask me to murder somebody to steal from him something without explaining whether and why this somebody deserved to die . Actually this somebody should argue with me first before I proceed with the murder and not just draw his knife well knowing that he has no chance to survive .

    2) They illustrate the lore of the world .

    Typically racial quests are excellent from this point of view . While questing you learn more about the race you belong to . History, customs, geography, famous personalities , food , music and litterature . You may find old documents that will close an unfortunate knowledge gap in the town library . Quests which make you travel belong to the same category . Dialogues are here fundamental . There can be rumors, misinformation, lies to be sorted out . F.ex the Tash coin quest in EQ was of this kind - you were made to visit all the racial capitals and going as a good race deep into Grobb was a quite risky thing :)

    As for the rewards they should certainly not be XP . XP is what you got during the quest and not when you finished it . Faction certainly yes . Money , absolutely - rare are the people who would do something for nothing and after all most of us are mercenaries in one way  or other (holy men like monks and paladins probably less so :)) . Epic items yes because that's what epic quests are for . Skills and abilities absolutely - that's what we adventurers have trained for . I am less sure for powerful yet non epic items . From the business point of view this is good because it adds a great number of time sinks . Fro the player point of view I guess the mileages will vary .

     


    This post was edited by Deadshade at June 15, 2018 8:36 AM PDT
    • 627 posts
    June 15, 2018 8:35 AM PDT
    I actually like some straight forward quests, go there and get this item from my caravan that got ambushed by bandits.

    Kill x amount of Beasts that has invested a sertan area.

    These kind of quest gives me a reson to travel to each corner of the world. Instead of sitting in a nice xp spot and gain my lvls that way.

    I like the cb belt quest from old eq, what I like is when I get "small" gifts in terms of quest drops while I'm there grupping for xp anyway.

    These quest will give rep or small xp bonus and is just a nice to have element for me.

    When it comes to a "real" quest and a real challenge with a BiS item involved I prefer it to be again easy to figure out but hard to finish.

    I'm not a loremaster by any means. And most of the time I don't care much for lore, so I will properly not read all the info I get during mislay time.

    But I do love a good boss fight and to travel the world in order to complete sertan quests.
    • 36 posts
    June 15, 2018 9:14 AM PDT

    A questline should be guide trough a zone to dig into the lore. Not easy to finish but then with better reward. If you finish a quest, the change the NPC talks about in the quest should be noticed by all. For example free Outpost X from Orcs. If Quest is done, the orcs should not be able to attack longer the outpost until someone trigger an quest in the Orc Camp to attack the outpost again. Its not doable for any char, but you can take part of an couter to fill a number of kills. Like triggered Diplo buffs in VG. Or for tradeskills to make an outpost bigger, supply with rocks or iron to build defense structers etc.

    Another point are access quests to locked zone, my favorite. For example: There is a hidden cave in the zone, a questline quides you trough the zones and when you have done the questline you find the cave an unlock the entrance.

    • 151 posts
    June 15, 2018 10:25 AM PDT

    My idea of a good quest would be one that has multiple endings or multiple paths you can take to get the same end. 

    A quest that has two or three possible ending is fun for me because you can choose the reward you want if you know the quest, if you don't it's a nother point in the game that you have to make a decision. Also make it so its not repeatable. Once you get your reward the other ones are not availabe to you. Make that decision matter.

    Having a quest with one reward but many different ways to get to it is great because you can play to your strtengths or maybe just take the road less traveled.

     

    Either way I like variety and choice. Make me make decisions that matter. Choosing what appearance gear you want to wear doesnt matter to me. Making a choice like the above mentioned does, and it effects the game in a real way.

    • 58 posts
    June 15, 2018 10:53 AM PDT

    I believe a quest should not be saught after but being presented with one. Unless there is a huge quest going on that a king and queen has seek to get their daughters rescued from the evil... well you know the idea.

    But as for a quests it should help developed your character and race with the choices you take and shouldn't be repeatable unless its for the local smith that needs copper or iron but this would be more like employment/contract work instead of quest anyways.

    for example im an elf ranger, i enter a specific forest and a tree is calling to me. i find the tree and we begin the quest speficially created for a elf ranger, this quest would be a series of trials and tribulations and with possibility of failiure, failing a quest would present a choice, perhaps the path of the ranger is not fit for this elf and maybe one of a warrior or other class would be better, but this would be to the extreme. Yet failling would have repurcussion to the class, repurcussion for current skills but might gain different skills to compensate but not as useful as the ones he currently has.

    For example his archery would be locked at its level for the time being until he proves that he is a better ranger. but then again he would exceed in drinking alchool and building up his tolerance towards it during this period as it would be a direct effect of failing. Hence being in a tavern and while doing the drinking thing an opportunity would come to the ranger after hitting a specific tolerance level, that could send him back to the right track.

     

    So for me quests is what lifes sets in front of you and what you do with it.

    Cheers