I was kinda surprised to read in the Oct newsletter that VR is using manual key framing to create animations. That's sorta old school these days with all the options for MoCap studios that rent time. Key frames are a pretty tedious, imprecise and very time consuming. I thought it was widely accepted in the industry that while time in a Mo-Cap studio is expensive at X dollars, when you consider that Y dollars spent on (usually multiple) animator's time over months to build everything from scratch often works out to be more expensive in the long-term. And much slower. (Not that animations are something that needs to be accelerated at this stage of production, but...)
Obviously there are places where key frames are necessary, but generally wouldn't that be non-humanoid? Where you can't really bring your dragon into a MoCap studio?
Can you speak to how this decision was arrived at?
Feyshtey said:I was kinda surprised to read in the Oct newsletter that VR is using manual key framing to create animations. That's sorta old school these days with all the options for MoCap studios that rent time. Key frames are a pretty tedious, imprecise and very time consuming. I thought it was widely accepted in the industry that while time in a Mo-Cap studio is expensive at X dollars, when you consider that Y dollars spent on (usually multiple) animator's time over months to build everything from scratch often works out to be more expensive in the long-term. And much slower. (Not that animations are something that needs to be accelerated at this stage of production, but...)
Obviously there are places where key frames are necessary, but generally wouldn't that be non-humanoid? Where you can't really bring your dragon into a MoCap studio?
Can you speak to how this decision was arrived at?
Vanguard used MoCap and I did not like it. I prefer hand crafted anmiations like EQ had. I don't want to see human MoCap applied to Ogres, Skar, etc.
When you are using motion capture, these actors are paid to make things "look cool" which results in a bunch of over-the-top animations that are obviously exaggerated. By hand crafting animations you are forced to keep things practical and I believe makes the animations better.
I would argue the opposite. If you're using mocap you are inherently limited in outcomes to what's possible by the human body. If you're using handcrafted animations you're only limited by the imagination of the animator. And those guys are nuts! (Just joking Julien :) ) With keyframes you're also at the mercy of the animator's interpretation of real motion, and interpretation is always subject to error.
Feyshtey said:I would argue the opposite. If you're using mocap you are inherently limited in outcomes to what's possible by the human body. If you're using handcrafted animations you're only limited by the imagination of the animator. And those guys are nuts! (Just joking Julien :) ) With keyframes you're also at the mercy of the animator's interpretation of real motion, and interpretation is always subject to error.
My concern is not modeling after what the human body can do. As I pointed out, many things that we can do I do not want in the game. Moreover, why would you want the limitations of the human body used for Ogres, Skar, Dwarfs, and other races that do not have a human proportional frame and not have natural motion?
Now, if they are going to be drawing animations manually for half the non-human races anyways, which means if they used motion capture half are natural looking and half are hand crafted, things would not be consistent between races. Handcrafting everything allows the artistic style to be consistent between race animations.
You also mention subject to error. Are you forgetting that work is peer reviewed? I doubt the directors would allow bad animations to make it into the game.
I read an article once many many years ago where the writer had interviewed a few CG artists. I wish I could remember who the artists were, but one was one of the staff that worked on Shrek. He was talking about the fact that we as humans are hard-coded to look at living things with the purpose of devining intent. As a survival trait, we subconciously see things we don't even think about. He was describing how in focus groups during development that they had a much more realistic look to Fiona, and the audience just did not like it. They found that approaching realism was kind of like dividing a number by half repeatedly. You can get closer and closer to zero, but never actually achieve it, and in the case of CG the closer they got to realism without actually hitting it made the audience more and more creeped out. They knew it looked real, but also instinctively knew it wasnt, and it made their skin crawl. So the developers scaled back the realism on Fiona and the audiences accepted it.
I look at animations in much the same way. No matter how good a keyframe artist is, they'll never actually divide by half and reach zero. Because of that the audience will always know that the animation is unreal. It might not make the audience uncomfortable, but subconsciously they'll know it's not ... right.
So I guess I have to give you credit BigDog. If the animation is far enough from real that it doesn't get to that weird place, maybe the audience wont care. But if there is an attempt to make it look real, you should probably just go with mocap.
As far as Pantheon goes, and what they may portray that's over the top, I don't really have much of a concern at all. I think they have been pretty consistent that they are going for a more traditional, more conservative stance on a lot of things. From the armors to the landscapes, etc. They recognize (from what I read) that the over the top flash is not what creates a believable breathing world. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit, but I guess I just have faith that if we won't have sparkling laser sweeps following every blade swing, then we won't have superhuman animations.
Feyshtey said:I just have faith that if we won't have sparkling laser sweeps following every blade swing, then we won't have superhuman animations.
I do not want those things either, but hand crafted does not mean that automatically.
I prefer a more simplistic and practical animations like this, perhaps with a bit more fluidity. They do need to be improved a bit more, but it is much closer to what I want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lZ1K9D0GKQ
Here is an example of MoCap animations. While I think they are OK, I this this looks more unnatural in a game like Pantheon is going to be, than the above ones. https://youtu.be/IRR6GG0xaFQ
I will say that in games where fighting is synced between combatants, like in Kingdom Come, MoCap is obviously better and the way to go.
Yeah, I have to disagree. The keyframe animation you linked to me looks really dead and unreal. There's no sense that the character has any sense of balance. There's weight to them, but not life. And there's a locking into the rest pose thats (to me) very jarring. The mocap animation on the other hand is realistically balanced. The character has subtle nuance in motion because, well, it's real. It's more fluid, more natural and more believable.
You're absolutely right that when combat moves are not synchronized between combatants that there's an obvious disconnect from reality. But that's true between either mocap or keyframe, and with keyframe its compounded with the unreal motion.
Everyone has their preference. :) All that being said I'd rather have strong gameplay elements over having animations at all if the choice had to be made.
Feyshtey said:Everyone has their preference. :) All that being said I'd rather have strong gameplay elements over having animations at all if the choice had to be made.
Animation is big for me, you dont want another remake of SWTOR where gameplay content is great but the combat and combat animation is just pitiful.
I can assure you guys that we are doing what is best for Pantheon with what we have available to us, we are a small team and have to work within our means and have looked at many options for a variety of game mechanics, features and systems and we always choose the best for us and the game and put 100% effort into its implementation, so I would wait until you see it in action first hand and closer to a final product before you pass judgement or try to offer alternatives, our guys are not new to the industry or their respective roles so give them a chance to show you what they can do. :)
Kilsin said:I can assure you guys that we are doing what is best for Pantheon with what we have available to us, we are a small team and have to work within our means and have looked at many options for a variety of game mechanics, features and systems and we always choose the best for us and the game and put 100% effort into its implementation, so I would wait until you see it in action first hand and closer to a final product before you pass judgement or try to offer alternatives, our guys are not new to the industry or their respective roles so give them a chance to show you what they can do. :)
I'm shocked more investors haven't jumped onto Pantheon yet. I don't know what market research is like for mmos, and I can imagine there are questionable variables to interpolate as an actuary, but from the outside looking in, you'd assume it would be a "safe" bet considering the immaculate branding and target audience. I suppose the mmo market has been volatile as of late (especially with kickstarters), but it's apples and oranges when you have Brad and the rest of the talented, experienced team.
I keep up closely with Lirik and Shorty on Twitch (Lirik is one of the top 3 grossing Twitch streamers), and they've been talking about Pantheon in high regard (especially Shorty). Is it permissable to contact them for future possibilities regarding a stream? The marketing/exposure they could bring is unprecedented. His demographic audience is a very open minded bunch as well.
Zuljan said:Kilsin said:I can assure you guys that we are doing what is best for Pantheon with what we have available to us, we are a small team and have to work within our means and have looked at many options for a variety of game mechanics, features and systems and we always choose the best for us and the game and put 100% effort into its implementation, so I would wait until you see it in action first hand and closer to a final product before you pass judgement or try to offer alternatives, our guys are not new to the industry or their respective roles so give them a chance to show you what they can do. :)
I'm shocked more investors haven't jumped onto Pantheon yet. I don't know what market research is like for mmos, and I can imagine there are questionable variables to interpolate as an actuary, but from the outside looking in, you'd assume it would be a "safe" bet considering the immaculate branding and target audience. I suppose the mmo market has been volatile as of late (especially with kickstarters), but it's apples and oranges when you have Brad and the rest of the talented, experienced team.
I keep up closely with Lirik and Shorty on Twitch (Lirik is one of the top 3 grossing Twitch streamers), and they've been talking about Pantheon in high regard (especially Shorty). Is it permissable to contact them for future possibilities regarding a stream? The marketing/exposure they could bring is unprecedented. His demographic audience is a very open minded bunch as well.
You guys can certainly share our name with them as long as we aren't bugging them or spamming their channels with our name, I know a few of our members have tagged us on Twitter with Lirik and Towelliee :)
Kilsin said:I can assure you guys that we are doing what is best for Pantheon with what we have available to us, we are a small team and have to work within our means and have looked at many options for a variety of game mechanics, features and systems and we always choose the best for us and the game and put 100% effort into its implementation, so I would wait until you see it in action first hand and closer to a final product before you pass judgement or try to offer alternatives, our guys are not new to the industry or their respective roles so give them a chance to show you what they can do. :)
I am totally on board with how you guys are handling it.
bigdogchris said:Kilsin said:I can assure you guys that we are doing what is best for Pantheon with what we have available to us, we are a small team and have to work within our means and have looked at many options for a variety of game mechanics, features and systems and we always choose the best for us and the game and put 100% effort into its implementation, so I would wait until you see it in action first hand and closer to a final product before you pass judgement or try to offer alternatives, our guys are not new to the industry or their respective roles so give them a chance to show you what they can do. :)
I am totally on board with how you guys are handling it.
Thank you, sir :)
Kilsin said:I can assure you guys that we are doing what is best for Pantheon with what we have available to us, we are a small team and have to work within our means and have looked at many options for a variety of game mechanics, features and systems and we always choose the best for us and the game and put 100% effort into its implementation, so I would wait until you see it in action first hand and closer to a final product before you pass judgement or try to offer alternatives, our guys are not new to the industry or their respective roles so give them a chance to show you what they can do. :)
I have the utmost faith in you. Im putting the future of my MMO Life in your hands.
>I'm shocked more investors haven't jumped onto Pantheon yet. I don't know what market research is like for mmos, and I can imagine there are questionable variables to interpolate as an actuary, but from the outside looking in, you'd assume it would be a "safe" bet considering the immaculate branding and target audience<
A lot of MMOs fail, or at least don't make back the large amounts of time and money they take to make; its quite a speculative investment. Not to mention the number of MMOs greatly exceeds the number of GOOD MMOs - its like restaurants in a way - people get enthusiastic and decide "I can do this better than the 95% that fail". But 95% of them can't.
I have worked with many actuaries and I am not surprised that they aren't enthusiastic - an actuary's days are numbered. What they care about is statistics (generally statistics dealing with life expectancy that is the primary focus of an actuary).
Aiming at a niche market tends to somewhat increase the chances of success I would guess but also tends to limit the potential return. To an investor making an investment that is speculative to begin with, I would guess this is not necessarily a plus.
As a fan I am enthusiastic - I pledged, I will subscribe and I may up the pledge level. But if I was being paid to make investments that mostly suceed and my career and standard of living depended on how well my next investment did I am not sure I would invest in a MMO even one realistically limited to an attainable market and being run by experienced professionals in the field.
I have no opinion on how the game should be developed from a technical or cost point of view - I don't kow enough. I trust the team to know what they are doing. I prefer realism without cartoon/anime elements. One may ask how one can be realistic in designing a troll or giant cockroach or other creatures that no human has ever seen but "looks like a real creature even though I've never seen its like before" versus "looks like a cartoon" is a distinction almost all of us can make.