RNG is not the only way to ensure scarcity, so any argument using scarcity as a basis for why RNG should be in the game kind of falls flat.
Pretty much everyone talks about how amazing epics are in EQ, and very little of that is RNG. It's almost 100% poopsocking, and there's no % chance that you'll fail to get your epic somehow.
At the end of the day, I don't really care that much, but in no way shape or form am I going to accept that RNG is the epitome of loot design.
Liav said:Wandidar said:Can RNG be fingernails on a chalkboard annoying... trying to get a split thread through the eye of a needle irritating...
YES.
Can RNG be like sweet, sweet mana from heaven when it FINALLY goes your way?
YES.
That means it works. If it aint broke, don't spend limited development resources fixing it.
This isn't a valid argument for, well, pretty much anything honestly.
Really?
Perhaps in your rush to marginalize my opinion along with, well, anyone else who disagrees with yours, you missed my point. Let me simplify for you.
1) I think RNG works fine
2) In fact, I LIKE RNG
3) Because I like it, I'd prefer that the develpers spend zero time, and thus zero dollars trying to come up with something else
You missed my point entirely.
If we stopped innovating simply because something "works", computers wouldn't exist, let alone a million other things. If you want to argue that we can't do better, I'll just ignore you because I guarantee that you can't come up with a reasonable explanation as to why.
When "sufficient" becomes the stopping point of design, Pantheon becomes a bad game. We can do better than "sufficient".
It would be a big risk to change up the design of RNG being the main way of loot distribution.
If the devs implement a new system that slowly annoys and drives players away it could be hard to determine this after the fact.
If you try out a new idea it might just tank the game completely and leave you wondering what happened.
This also applies to all the new things the devs are adding... Perception and Acclimation could be huge hits or huge flops.
Every new system is a risk / reward situation that could be very hard to undo or even understand what part of the game players are not enjoying.
The payoff will be great if changes like this succeed, I'm just saying it's better to pick your battles than just alter systems that aren't really broken.
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
Durp said:Angrykiz said:....
How about a game world where there are lots of items you just wont ever have... Hey maybe you won't even make it to max level if you die too often.
.....
this....^^^
Crticize the RNG all you want, there is no better system. Anything else will make it seem trivial. Having raided in eq in high end raiding guilds for 16 years (1999-2015), I remember many many more instances of times I (and others) had to wait an extraordinarily long time for a drop and be over the moon when I (they) finally got it than the items I got fairly easy. As a matter of fact I remember All hard fought/gotten items and no easily gotten ones.
So there's the argument FOR RNG; yeah it sucks if your item doesn't drop or you lose a roll several/many times in a row but damn, does it create memories....
And that my friends, is why I am looking forward to pantheon. Not because i want stuff the easy way or the hard way; no, I want it to be memorable.
I dont want any thing given to me. If it takes a long time because of RNG, so be it. The sweeter the victory and the longer the memory. In the end, it's the memories and the connections that count.
Here is a link to what makes people happy
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/mindfulness/2013/12/what-makes-men-and-women-happy-a-75-year-studys-revelation/
edit:typos, punctuation
Interesting take. Here is another article to what makes people happy: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/mind-the-manager/201306/new-employee-study-shows-recognition-matters-more-money
I personally don't have an issue with RNG being the primary method for loot acquisition for the majority of the game. I would like to avoid any situation similar to the Shimmering Ring of the Djinn from EQ2, though. As far as alternate currencies go, I think there are a couple ways to incorporate them into the game without them taking over the reigns as a primary or even secondary option. The BCNM tokens from FFXI are one great example. The tokens themselves were acquired through RNG ... they were a very rare drop, but once you got them, you then had a token that you could use to "force pop" an encounter that once again had a chance to drop something nice.
Faction, in some ways, could be viewed as a form of "alternate currency." If you lock certain rewards behind a high faction requirement you are essentially utilizing a type of alternate currency. It allows you to progressively work towards earning something. RNG definitely provides a rush ... and it can go both ways. Sometimes you get super lucky, sometimes you get burned. At the end of the day though, people appreciate recognition for their hard work. I don't care for things like participation trophies or anything like that ... but I don't see an issue with allowing people to set an achievable goal where dedication trumps luck or chance.
I think this is one of those situations where a mixed bag feels appropriate. You shouldn't see an alternate currency for every zone. Even when you do see alternate currencies, they don't necessarily have to ensure that you will get what you want. Alternate currencies can play right back into RNG in the sense that you can progressively work toward having a higher chance to unearth a reward locked behind RNG by consistently farming that currency. There doesen't have to be a guarantee. I shared an idea awhile back where there could be a "universal currency" that is directly tied into the life cycle of your character, where all mobs can drop a "bankable currency" that you would lose a large chunk of upon death. At the time, I was under the impression that we wouldn't be able to de-level and that was a real bummer in regards to the max-level death penalty. People shouldn't be able to run around with impunity. Here is a link to that idea: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5753/spiritual-conversion
Now keep in mind if you read this thread, this currency wouldn't have to be used for the best of anything. As Lokispawn pointed out, it could be used to acquire a utility spell or maybe a few augmentations for your character. It doesen't have to be the end all be all ... just a tangible asset that you stand to lose upon death. It would reinforce the notion of "risk vs reward" at any given point in time. This all goes back to the original link I shared ... most people care more about recognition for their hard work than an actual reward. I don't want NPC's to give me a pat on the back or say good job because clearly that isn't the same thing ... but being able to set goals where you can actively measure progress as you go can be a good thing if it's pulled off right.
I think this is where have a robust and competative crafting segment comes in. If crafting can make items comparable to (but slightly less than the looted version), then one could WORK toward the item by acquiring the compents and or cash to make/buy an item similar.
This may not be appropriate for all in game items, but some of the more typical items could be solved this way. Devs just have to find the balance between a looted item and crafted item both having a segment of the player base seeking them out.
oneADseven said:I personally don't have an issue with RNG being the primary method for loot acquisition for the majority of the game. I would like to avoid any situation similar to the Shimmering Ring of the Djinn from EQ2, though. As far as alternate currencies go, I think there are a couple ways to incorporate them into the game without them taking over the reigns as a primary or even secondary option. The BCNM tokens from FFXI are one great example. The tokens themselves were acquired through RNG ... they were a very rare drop, but once you got them, you then had a token that you could use to "force pop" an encounter that once again had a chance to drop something nice.
This is pretty well as close as I'd like to go when it comes to breaking down RNG, having a rare drop that can force spawn the mob but with the same drop rates for the loot table making it just an extra chance to get what you are after. This could help some tremendously (in the rare event the spawn token drops) for those in pug groups who lose the roll on a rare drop only to be able to immediately have another chance at a drop.
oneADseven said:Faction, in some ways, could be viewed as a form of "alternate currency." If you lock certain rewards behind a high faction requirement you are essentially utilizing a type of alternate currency. It allows you to progressively work towards earning something. RNG definitely provides a rush ... and it can go both ways. Sometimes you get super lucky, sometimes you get burned. At the end of the day though, people appreciate recognition for their hard work. I don't care for things like participation trophies or anything like that ... but I don't see an issue with allowing people to set an achievable goal where dedication trumps luck or chance... I don't want NPC's to give me a pat on the back or say good job because clearly that isn't the same thing ... but being able to set goals where you can actively measure progress as you go can be a good thing if it's pulled off right.
It's fine to have some items be behind faction/crafting/etc. I'd argue that RNG mob drops (for no-drop items especially) leads to more recognition/is more relatable to others. When you have desireable known rare drops that are heavily camped the item tends to get a certain level of notoriety due to the difficulty of both getting in the camp and managing to win the drop. In early EQ getting a FBSS (highly desired/BiS haste belt) took real dedication, sure some people got theirs within an hour of trying but the more common experience was it taking days to weeks. This lead to players commiserating together, sharing their experience at it like an old war story and even those that hadn't been through it knew about the camp and effort/dedication required. Or something like Glowing Black Stone (an off-hand caster item with very high +intelligence for even max level characters) that dropped from a level 13 necromancer in a newbie area, it took great effort and dedication to both getting her to spawn and more so to get the drop as it was incredibly rare on top of her rare spawning. The thing is, even with just RNG, for most items you still CAN set goals to get the item either by facing RNG and they can actively measure their progress toward getting the item (in the case it's not no-drop) by saving their gold/platinum to put toward the item based on the servers going rate should RNG fail them.
You don't need an alternate currency to counter RNG when you can just use regular currency. I imagine that most drops will be tradable save for a lot of raid gear and maybe some of the highest challenge group dungeon content.
For raid/no-drop items I don't care one way or another if there are tokens of some kind, but for items that will be in the economy I think it's important that sometimes trying to be self-sufficient and get all your drops from the mob just doesn't work out and you have to rely on the market to get what you desire. With RNG on tradable items the player always has another way in the option to participate in the economy and purchase, and personally I think that is a fair enough alternative offering to those who just can't manage to get their target.
Fulton said:I think this is where have a robust and competative crafting segment comes in. If crafting can make items comparable to (but slightly less than the looted version), then one could WORK toward the item by acquiring the compents and or cash to make/buy an item similar.
This may not be appropriate for all in game items, but some of the more typical items could be solved this way. Devs just have to find the balance between a looted item and crafted item both having a segment of the player base seeking them out.
This, right here. Anything that has the potential to create more player interaction through different means is something I'm for.
Instead of tokens, just drop crafting materials from same mob as well. That gives two ways to achieve the same result, and both ways promote player interaction (One through grouping, one through locating a crafter if unable to craft yourself).
Bob drops Sword of Goo. Bob also drops crafting components to create sword of Goo. Player X has a chance to either
1. loot sword of Goo; or
2. loot the requisite amount of crafting components to have sword of goo equivalent crafted
If player X loots sword of goo and finds himself with crafting components he no longer needs, player X can now sell crafting components to other players.
Liav said:You missed my point entirely.
If we stopped innovating simply because something "works", computers wouldn't exist, let alone a million other things. If you want to argue that we can't do better, I'll just ignore you because I guarantee that you can't come up with a reasonable explanation as to why.
When "sufficient" becomes the stopping point of design, Pantheon becomes a bad game. We can do better than "sufficient".
There are many things they can work on, improve on, etc... to make Pantheon THE game for the player base that wants it. That doesn't mean they need to innovate or change EVERYTHING. RNG works as intended - and as desired by, I would surmise, by at least some not insignifcant portion of the player base. It is, of course, true that I'm saying that simply based upon a gut feel and experience rather than any hard evidence of what most players do or don't think about it.
When it comes to loot I have no problems with the RNG. Some people may get that rare item on their first try and some may not even have it after the one-thousandth try. However, if RNG is used as a mechanism to block progression then I do have an issue with it. So if a rare item is called for as a key to progression and the only successful way to acquire said key is purely by good fortune with the RNG then I am opposed. It's like a gatekeeper telling you to pick a number between one and one thousand and if you guess wrong he says "go away, come back tomorrow and we'll try again."
I never got the Mrylokars Dagger from Vulak even though my guild cleared Temple of Veeshan every single week through the whole Velious expansion (and probably the next 1 or 2 expansions as well.)
Maybe I'm dreaming it up (?), it was a long time ago, but I don't think that dagger dropped for the first couple of years on Antonious Bayle at all.
That makes it easily the most treasurable item ever, in any game, for me. That's what you call mythic loot! xD
Liav said:You missed my point entirely.
If we stopped innovating simply because something "works", computers wouldn't exist, let alone a million other things. If you want to argue that we can't do better, I'll just ignore you because I guarantee that you can't come up with a reasonable explanation as to why.
When "sufficient" becomes the stopping point of design, Pantheon becomes a bad game. We can do better than "sufficient".
Of course, there's also the old adage, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.
I honestly don't know how many games I've seen go completely off the cliff because there was such a zealotous need to rethink or reimagine things that just plain work only to produce gimmicky, clunky, cumbersome, suspicious, far-fetched or just plain stupid "new" systems.
This is not to say of course that everything that was originally designed into EQ is the end-all, be-all. But there are some things about EQ that were exceptional because they were simple, or unpredictable, or both.
Durp said:Angrykiz said:....
How about a game world where there are lots of items you just wont ever have... Hey maybe you won't even make it to max level if you die too often.
.....
this....^^^
Crticize the RNG all you want, there is no better system. Anything else will make it seem trivial. Having raided in eq in high end raiding guilds for 16 years (1999-2015), I remember many many more instances of times I (and others) had to wait an extraordinarily long time for a drop and be over the moon when I (they) finally got it than the items I got fairly easy. As a matter of fact I remember All hard fought/gotten items and no easily gotten ones.
So there's the argument FOR RNG; yeah it sucks if your item doesn't drop or you lose a roll several/many times in a row but damn, does it create memories....
And that my friends, is why I am looking forward to pantheon. Not because i want stuff the easy way or the hard way; no, I want it to be memorable.
I dont want any thing given to me. If it takes a long time because of RNG, so be it. The sweeter the victory and the longer the memory. In the end, it's the memories and the connections that count.
Here is a link to what makes people happy
https://blogs.psychcentral.com/mindfulness/2013/12/what-makes-men-and-women-happy-a-75-year-studys-revelation/
edit:typos, punctuation
Without being too presumptuous, I wanted to add something to Durp's commentary.
An important aspect here is that, for many years, due to the design of EQ, you may not have gotten that item you really wanted or felt you really needed for a long, long time (RNG just wasn't your friend) - BUT - when you FINALLY got it... it was still valuable to have. EQ wasn't a game where top end raid gear became trash as soon as the next expansion came out. You might have waited 2 years to get an FBSS, but it was likely still valuable for 4 more.
And because many items that were deemed powerful or useful were often non-binding, they continued to be valuable for people who liked to raise up alts... or as a lend out to a friend who might need it... or as a means of obtaining another item (trade, sell, etc...)
RNG becomes more palatable when you know that the usefulness or desirability horizon for an item is LONG... and less palatable when you know that the usefulness or desirability horizon for an item is SHORT.
Great points Wandidar. What you describe at the end there is the opposite of what I have experienced in most games. EQ2 had a few items that preserved value for a long time, but for the most part ... as soon as an expansion hit, it was time to replace 95% of your gear. Another thing that was a real bummer was instancing. You had 1 (and only 1) chance to kill bosses every single week and considering that everything would be replaced on the next expansion, I remember bad RNG luck being pretty miserable. My guild was one of the first guilds in the game to kill Tarinax and there were 2 items he dropped that were incredibly good. We got both of them for the first time with less than a month to go before the next expansion. One was a bow that allowed you to summon a specialized ammo. Our ranger was estatic to get it, and the good news was that it actually retained value in later expansions due to the ammo component. The other item was a really good pair of tank bracers. I finally got them but was only able to use them for a few weeks ... as soon as the next expansion hit, they were replaced by an easily acquired quest item.
Wandidar said:RNG becomes more palatable when you know that the usefulness or desirability horizon for an item is LONG... and less palatable when you know that the usefulness or desirability horizon for an item is SHORT.
An excellent point, I didn't even think about that. RNG works much better when you know that item you are after isn't going to get crushed by some new patch or expansion months down the line. The FBSS was still an excellent item years into the life of EQ, on my server it was still worth a hefty 7k up till the third expansion: Luclin (and maybe beyond but I quit soon after). The epic quest weapons for some classes were always desireable due to the spells they let you cast free of mana, some being unique buffs.
Liav said:I genuinely hope we're not holding on to the same loot for two years. That would be disgusting.
Oh I disagree. I am a HUGE fan of the entire trophy system in EQ2. Seriously - you should see my houses - weapons and armor everywhere. Heads on the wall etc. I would go so far to say that ANYTHING that had such an incredibly low chance of dropping would automatically be optioned as a trophy when done with. I would hunt Bob until I had his full set and then buy a manaquin just to put the whole set on display.
On a side note, I just want to say how much I have enjoyed this whole thread. I got what I asked for - friendly debate in all things RNG. I never got my Siren Hair Hood from ol Quid and to date - it is something I have regretted. I spent a LOT of time there (Rathe Mtns.) and never had it drop. Hell, I don't think I actually saw him more than 5 times over a few years. But during that process, I looted thousands of steel weapons that sold pretty well to newbs in Qeynos. I made a LOT of coin while camping that damned hood. I made so much that I could buy a Siren Hair Hood. Except that the item was so rare I never once even heard of the hat being for sell. In my entire time on MithMarr, I only ever saw the item one time on another person. The Rogue Epic on the other hand were a dime a dozen. I watched a guy give his dagger to a friends enchanter pet (not mine - I WISH) because he could replace it so easily. By the way, while hunting for the SHH, I would hunt and give Woe and Envy to my enchanter pet all the time. Nice combo weapons and easy to get. Always felt a little guilty though for taking a piece of someone else's epic.
Iksar said:
I think a better way to handle possible monopolization of camps/items, should it arise and need warrant, would be making those sought after rare items "lore" to the character looting and having that include a character lockout from looting/buying said item again for x amount of time (weeks to months). This simulates (in a more roleplaying way) the idea that there really is only one of this item in the world (to your character anyway) and the item you found you sold off to Harry over in Brokertown. Some weeks/months later its feasible that it has made its way somewhere else for you to find, or the original owner tracked it down and took it back.
I like this idea. It would descourage camping rare drops.
Nephretiti said:Oh I disagree. I am a HUGE fan of the entire trophy system in EQ2. Seriously - you should see my houses - weapons and armor everywhere. Heads on the wall etc. I would go so far to say that ANYTHING that had such an incredibly low chance of dropping would automatically be optioned as a trophy when done with. I would hunt Bob until I had his full set and then buy a manaquin just to put the whole set on display.
I'm not talking about trophies. What I'm trying to say is that I hope there are solid upgrade options for any given slot on a relatively regular timeline barring some rare exceptions like illusions and unique effects.
Beyond the first year from launch, if a given sword is best in slot for an entire year that would really suck imo. Epic weapons might be an exception but even that gets boring to look at after a while.