Porygon said: @bazgrim, I saw that part, but i still feel like being able to attack from 7 feet away vs 3 feet would provide a huge advantage. Slower attack speed doesn't change that if I'm holding a spear and you're on top of me I either need to back up or push you away to get the full benefit!
Or choke up on the shaft. One doesn't have to hold a spear by the end.
Porygon said: @bazgrim, I saw that part, but i still feel like being able to attack from 7 feet away vs 3 feet would provide a huge advantage. Slower attack speed doesn't change that if I'm holding a spear and you're on top of me I either need to back up or push you away to get the full benefit!
You could, as Youmu said, think of it as a very short range bow. With a bow, of course you have an advantage being able to attack from hundreds of feet away instead of 3 feet away. The downside is that it takes time to grab a new arrow, nock it, and draw the string. Going off what you said, some bows in games even have a minimum usable range. So if a mob is right on top of you, they interfere with your ability to properly use a bow, so you have to back up or push them back before you can use your bow again. The same basic principle could be applied to spears. At least for the tip of it anyway. If the mob is too close, you could use the staff of the spear just like a regular staff. This would be blunt as opposed to piercing and probably would do less damage. Even better if you can use the staff to push the mob far enough away for you to use the tip again. So in that case, I kind of agree with you about the decreased damage while they're within minimum usable distance of the tip. I think there'd just need to be a different animation to explain what's going on.
I'm just thinking out loud here, but I think we're on the same page now :P
I think we have to leave the idea of realism way behind here guys. The spear is an incredibly fast and nimble weapon, it is extremely hard to close in on without risking serious injury or death even against a not so skilled spear-user, and if you close in they could jump back, or drop the spear and go to a sword or dagger. You ain't going to be able to simulate how freaking good of a weapon spears and polearms in general are, they dominated the battlefield for a reason.
A bit more of a realistic spear representation. GoT is a pretty bad source for actual combat techniques.
Then add that a spear is basically a quarterstaff that you can do all the quaterstaff techniques with, including bashing someones skull in. Yea, it is a troublesome weapon to represent realistically, so lets not.
I do like the idea of having "reach" weapons so to say, not sure on the push-back thing. More damage at the optimal range of the weapon and less when closer to me sounds like a good solution, they would be the highest damage melee weapon but you would have to play more skillfully to get all that damage and adapt your character to do so, which I think is a great thing.
Honestly with this i would simply seeing the different types of weapons simply give you different weapon abilities while comboing it with your class you currently are like a warrior with a halberd could give you reckless strike as a paladin might give you righteous sweep or something you this effect, granted they would have a higher delay due to these weapon types usually and a lot bigger and heavier than basically everything else, but seeing them give you a totally different feel would be awesome, like short swords from long sword, dagger you name it they all do something different, and they would be used in a way that the class so not only are you using it but it seems to make since with the class you are using it with.
Youmu said:A bit more of a realistic spear representation. GoT is a pretty bad source for actual combat techniques.
True... but it also took spears from a great concept to a very boring concept.
Spears would definately work better with larger mobs if weapon range becomes a factor. i'll gladly summon a spear if it can actually reach a boss mob over the warrior's sword or the rogue's dagger (or for a pet). Climbing onto dragons and slashing them with a sword sounds fancy and all, but most people would feel safe on the ground. Also, they may be able to do more damage against high ac mobs...you know, the magic word - "piercing". If a smaller mob likes to get up close and personal from behind you...then a spear may not be a great idea.
As a shaman in EQ1, I did love the Epic 1.0 Spear of Fate. What I hated was that spears were 1HP weapons...and that is ridiculous. Watching a halfing rogue wielding in 1 hand a spear twice his height backstabbing some orc was beyond idiotic. Spears should be 2HP weapons.
So put in spears, just be realistic about them and go 2HP.
Vandraad said:As a shaman in EQ1, I did love the Epic 1.0 Spear of Fate. What I hated was that spears were 1HP weapons...and that is ridiculous. Watching a halfing rogue wielding in 1 hand a spear twice his height backstabbing some orc was beyond idiotic. Spears should be 2HP weapons.
So put in spears, just be realistic about them and go 2HP.
Spears actually tended to be primarily used with one hand throughout history. Polearms lean much more toward two hands due to the way they are used more in a slashing way and the tendency for increased length and/or weight, I separate spears from the category because they most often are used quite differently.
I'm necro-ing the heck out of this thread as a result of the latest class reveals.
I see mention of 2-hand and 1-hand edged weapons. I see mention of 2-hand and 1-hand blunt weapons. There is mention of ranged weapons, daggers are specified, and shields are coming out the wazoo.
But not one single mention of piercing weapons in any of the class descriptions so far - all of which have been/utilize melee of some kind. What gives? Where are the spears? Where are the javelins and the lances? The Paladin reveal has me excited, but the lack of piercing anywhere's got me a little bummed out. Hell, at this point I'd be ok with only shaman's using spears, even if that makes no dag gum sense. I just want to see them!
Sato said: Weaponry: Shaman are proficient with most simple weapons, however they tend to prefer "spears", staves, and blunt weapons fashioned from wood, bone, or stone. That should suffice your spear worries!
When shaman's get their reveal and spears are still specified, I might feel a little better about it. At least I'll know they'll be in the game, even if they'd be geared more towards shaman for some explicably goofy reason. Until then, however, I'm treating those pages of the un-revealed classes as empty.
I realize this is a silly thing to be all moany about. Really, I do. It just boggles the crap out of me. I'd argue that spears are mentioned specifically throughout history, quantitatively, second only to swords. And yet they are lacking in so many RPGs, in all forms. Tridents, pilums, lances, javelins, hasta, the list goes on. The dragon slaying knight sitting atop it's steed, lance leveled, is a staple of historical mythology. Poseidon and his trident, the spears of Lugh and Odin, and friggin' jousting for friggin' sakes, something that is STILL done today.
You think I'm whining now, you should've seen me when I picked up Skyrim. A world of vikings and dragons and not a single spear in sight.
Ok, rant /off.
I do think that like in EQ, rogues might be able to wield one handed spears. The overall weapon types have not been described and some classes get "Every weapon type" or "Most one handed weapon" as attributes so... there's still a blurr.
I agree spears are not amongst the most popular weapon, while beeing historically effective and usually considered better against dragons and such due to the penetration factor, I just hope VR is not making them inexistant or underwhelming for hype reasons.
Polearms are simply not the subject either, and obviously you're advocating about halberds beeing piercing weapons while the piercing part on the artwork you linked is ornemental regarding to the bladed part.
Halberds were made to get a reach unrivaled with standard weapons, with height reaching 2.5 meters because that was a part of the point of theses weapons, and were longer than their user which doesn't seem to be the case here, the pointy end was also the most important part of the weapon because it's the only way to use a lenghty weapon withouth beeing overexhausted by the strength required, the head beeing placed afar increasing the feeling of weight of the weapon. The side blade had it's uses of course, but it was rather small and minimalist to keep the weapon at useable weights.
So basically, it's a topic about spears, where you are linking a single bladed axe with a long handle or a pole axe (at best) , and talking about a halberd.
Aaand I'm the one wasting everyone's time here.
On your subject, if you really dig Polearms of some sort, I can't agree more that they are underused in most videogames or categorized in weapon types that ends up irrelevant (Wow had some good polearms at the begining, with the category ended as "weird spears of some sort" for now.).
Sure looks like a big two-handed axe to me but I don't claim any expertise.
Now the bottom looks sharp and pointy so let's call it a greataxe mounted on a spear?
Were spears such a great weapon?
Spears were common because they could quickly and cheaply be produced in large numbers. Spears were common because poorly trained conscripts could be trained to use them relatively quickly. Not to be masters, but good enough to be adaquate. Spears were common because they were versatile. Stab with a spear, throw it or stick it out to deter charging cavalry (yes a pike was much better for this but pike formations were more specialized, better trained and expensive). Spears were common because a peasant who was not allowed to own a weapon could easily have one - or make one in minutes - much like the quarterstaff. I've often read that a skilled quarterstaff user was deadly even agaianst a well trained sword user. I haven't seen similar things said about spears. That may just be my ignorance.
I have always been a big fan of spears and spear combat styles and definitely feel they are under represented in MMOs and games in general.
There are many great martial styles that make use of 4 different configurations of a hafted pokey thing, technical term.
1)The long spear/great spear which is a 2 handed weapon, usually used from the second or third rank of a shield wall or inside a Roman square. There are some oriental spear styles that use the long spear made of flexible material as a combination quarterstaff with thrusts and cuts with the blade tip. Its super fun to watch.
2)The infantry spear or pike which is usually a one handed weapon used in a shield wall weapon that is meant as a deterrent vs coming into melee range. Pikes are rarely used with any real fineness as pikemen were also usually heavily armored and screen archers from attack. As such they can really only thrust forward, to a 45 degree angle or used to pull down on an enemy shield to open a shot for your neighbor.
3)The bladed spear is a truly lethal weapon and it might be easier to think of it as a gladious on the end of a 2-3ft shaft that was adopted by Shaka Zulu. The bladed spear is a much better skirmisher weapon as it combines most of the benefits of a shortsword with the reach of a spear. Its also possible that Cu Chulainn's Gae Bulg was more of a bladed or barbed spear vs the 4th type of spear
4)The Hoplite spear was a much lighter spear than either the great spear or the pike and could be thrown when needed. It was still primarily a shield wall weapon and not meant for fancy duels.
If you push the oriental spear/quarterstaff style into its own category you really have 5 different configurations of spears and each one has its own strengths and weaknesses.
If this were a game where the type of weapon you had equipped gave you access to a set of basic skills that anyone proficient with that weapon could use spears could very easily be brought in while still maintaining a far amount of uniqueness. I am sure it is way to late at this point for certain basic abilities to be added to the game based on weapon type but I could be wrong. Over all spears are just the third primary damage type after slashing and bludgeoning and can be found in one handed, two handed and throwing versions. Light piercing weapons like daggers and rapier's are a completely different fighting style that focuses on speed and agility rather than strength for spears.
Food for thought,
Trasak
p.s. I would call the weapon in that picture a lochaber axe.
All spears are polearms, not all polearms are spears, at least how I view it.
How I categorize polearms.
Stabby stick: Classic spears where the only real attack is the thrust.
Cutty stick: Cutting spears, glaives, naginata and similar. Capable of thrusting and cutting.
Hooky stick: Halbers, Bill-hooks, Fauchards, Poleaxe and similar. Can cut/crush, thrust and hook.
Yes there might be some cases that are a bit odd in this categorization such as dane axes, kinda polearm, can't really effectivly stab but cut and hook. But ehh, can't be perfect if you want to keep it relatively simple. Getting hung up on the exact type of polearm, if it is a bill, guisarme, halberd, bardiche or whatever, doesn't really help, it is going to be a fantasy game with fantasy weapons, we can't really have seperate categories for all of those, and even in reality they were used pretty much the same way, being mixed in with each other in formations. You might make a case for the poleaxe being different enough from the rest to be seperate, because it was a knightly weapon used in and against armour.
Halberds varied a lot in lenght. From being about shoulder heing to above the head of the user. They were kind of a swiss army knife of the battlefield, usable in formation as a shorter spear (in comparison to the pike which was dominant during the time of the halberd) but it was also used a lot in bodyguarding important people on the battlefield and by town guard, where swinging most certainly was used, as described in fighting manuals.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GD93F03suMc
This is Quarterstaff and Halberd according to 1500s master Joachim Meyer.
Iksar said:Halberds were typically 1.5-1.8 metres (5 to 6 feet) long, so this could be one...though it looks closer to a bardiche.
In any case, while the title of the thread is spears the OP also included polearms with a point proclaiming "Polearm Lives Matter!"
Pretty sure it's a voulge.
