So, like the rest of ya'll, I've played a good number of MMO's, and many of these titles have a lot of diversity with weapons and armor. That's great, and I fully expect Pantheon to deliver that.
But ...What the hell is up with the lack of spears in so many games?
And almost worse than this, even when there ARE spears/polearms, they share the same dag gum animations as a friggin' short sword. Come on, that ain't right.
I know this is a pretty minor detail, considering everything else out there we worry about as giant MMO nerds, but it still irks the pudding out of me. And sure, if they aren't present in the game, I'll throw a tiny little fit but it surely won't stop me from logging on. But ...y'know, come on! It's such a weapon staple!
Polearm Lives Matter!
I seem to recall that, even in Everquest they were certainly present, but for some reason the only class that ever made use of them (due to stats present) were, what ..shamans? Maybe beastlords later? That ain't right.
What's the haps, Kilsin? Do I get to be a tank with a spear, or nah?
As a Shaman in EQ my favorite looking weapon was the Spear of Fate. Even when it was obsolete, I loved the look. That said, I always wished I could have used it from behind the tank. But that role was not to be. I'd like to see spears could be an offensive weapon of great renown. I could see a spear that magically returns to the thrower farther in game. Would be a cool graphic.
I'm really hoping we see a wide variety of weapons and most classes can use. I liked the option of maybe duel wielding a spear and a mace with my BL. Hopefully there are options , I don't want a system that your class can only use a sword or only use a dagger. Now obviously there should be some restrictions. I don't think a monk with a 2h sword would quiet seem right. I'm on board with hoping for spears for my soon to be monk though.
Beefcake said:Would be nice if extra-ranged melee weapons, like spears, had an ability to force opponents to stay at an extended range, at least temporarily, preventing the opponents from coming into standard melee range and attacking.
Nice idea. Like if an enemy is in your front 180 degree arc and sees that your attack range is longer than theirs, they'll be less likely to come within range, because they know they'll have to at least risk taking a hit from your spear first. (kinda like First Strike in MtG)
I agree spears are cool and definitely underused in most MMOs - there's a lot of room to work with for animations and strategies. For example, it would be cool to see some tactics for groups with polearms like a Greek phalanx.
Polearms in general are one of those weapon types that developers have not taken full advantage off in my opinion. There's a plethra of different ones, Spears, Glaives, Bills, Fauchards, Poleaxes, Ranseurs, Guisarmes, Halberds and many more, I'm not saying we should put them all in, but I think we could expand it out to at least thrust, cut and hook types (cut types can also thrust, hook types can cut and thrust as well).
Just look at all this stuff
Beyond animations, the problem in "these games" is that there is no concept of melee range. Everything is the same, whether it's a pocket knife or a halberd. There needs to be a dynamic where melee weapon range matters, but that's very complicated. To me that's more important than the look of how a weapon is used.
Krixus said:Beyond animations, the problem in "these games" is that there is no concept of melee range. Everything is the same, whether it's a pocket knife or a halberd. There needs to be a dynamic where melee weapon range matters, but that's very complicated. To me that's more important than the look of how a weapon is used.
I wouldn't even know how to begin with the technical side of range on weapons in contrast to mobs and environment, but I agree that it would be great if it were a noticeable difference.
A while back, I played a whole heap of Lord Of The Rings Online as a Warden. A "spartan" type tank with spear and shield. My favorite class to date of any MMO out there, and I think it was a good workaround to the physics and range issue. I wonder if, instead of going through the trouble of trying to make the spear act different, they just created an entire class around it to make it FEEL different - and feel different it certainly did. Even though the Warden could equip other weapon types, and even though the animations for those weapon types were the same whether you equipped a spear, sword, or hammer, the animations for the warden attacks were spear based, and that was ok with me. Instead of a spear swinging and chopping like a sword, on the Warden it was a hammer thrusting and hooking like a spear. Looked silly, but whatevs.
Either way, it's always struck me as odd, how unrepresented they are in MMO's. Polearms were such a staple in military history, for both calvary and infantry, that not having them just seems silly.
Krixus said:Beyond animations, the problem in "these games" is that there is no concept of melee range. Everything is the same, whether it's a pocket knife or a halberd. There needs to be a dynamic where melee weapon range matters, but that's very complicated. To me that's more important than the look of how a weapon is used.
I'm imagining Spears could encourage non-standard groups in a good way.
Log in: there are 4 tanks (war, dire lord, pally, or whatever combination thereof) and a wizard and they want to do stuff and adventure.
The first puzzle is the environment created by the group make-up for which the group will need to adapt. Resolution: Spears. (Game environment influence is next concern depending on where they are going.)
Tanks grab shields and spears, one tank is MT- maybe MT uses only swords; four monsters pulled- oops!. Three tanks with Shields and spears, like a american football offensive line- counter or keep at bay 3, while the MT- as if like an american football quarterback pulls one inside the offensive line and attacks, with the wizard acting like a sapper on the main target casting nukes.
Only issue is if skill and mana/endurance holds out.
thrilling!
Throwing spears could be a thing, too. So if skill in throwing and melee is good enough, one can throw a spear- and if really good enough can throw a spear and impale a monster to the ground from a distance- kind of like a root.
I am of the opinion that various weapons, such as staves, spears, polearms should have the added utility of holding or pushing back mobs. In real life, this was the benefit of many of these weapons. Other weapons may have done more devastating damage but a spear or pole arm could keep enemies back and out of melee range. Someone skilled in their use could hold back multiple enemies out of melee range. Which would make them great for tanks.
Ok,
So if a player could hold a mob out of melee range with a spear. That spear would have to do no damage or else what you have is essentially an exploit.
Although the ideas definitely have merit.
IF the mob is held out of melee range with this spear in his chest... wouldn't he still be trying to move towards the spear wielding PC, essentially pushing the PC around?
Zorkon said:Ok,
So if a player could hold a mob out of melee range with a spear. That spear would have to do no damage or else what you have is essentially an exploit.
Although the ideas definitely have merit.
IF the mob is held out of melee range with this spear in his chest... wouldn't he still be trying to move towards the spear wielding PC, essentially pushing the PC around?
You can repeatedly stab, pull back, stab again, etc. it does not have to stay in the mob. The mob can keep trying to come forward, taking a potential hit each time, if it wishes. Eventually, it would get through. Then, you back up, rinse and repeat.
Zorkon said:Ok,
So if a player could hold a mob out of melee range with a spear. That spear would have to do no damage or else what you have is essentially an exploit.
DragonFist said:Zorkon said:Ok,
So if a player could hold a mob out of melee range with a spear. That spear would have to do no damage or else what you have is essentially an exploit.
That's just one side of the mechanic. Skills like shield parry or disarm can create an opening. Also, the devs would balance it so that no character would be able to keep all enemies at bay at all times. It would likely be an active action, forcing a tank to time his spear blows to push the enemy back. Miss the timing or get parried and you'll have to change the strat up.
Exactly. It's silly to think that just holding your spear out would keep a mob at bay literally forever. They might hesitate and they might have to take a risk, but eventually the mob is going to try to dodge the spear or knock it out of the way. If they are unsuccessful, then they'll take damage. If they are successful, they'll be in close enough range to attack you. And if they have high-attack rate (fast) weapons, they'll be able to get in plenty of blows by the time you (the spear-wielder) manages to swing your weapon back around and get it in between you and the enemy. That's actually very balanced and a fun combat mechanic.
Bazgrim said:DragonFist said:Zorkon said:Ok,
So if a player could hold a mob out of melee range with a spear. That spear would have to do no damage or else what you have is essentially an exploit.
That's just one side of the mechanic. Skills like shield parry or disarm can create an opening. Also, the devs would balance it so that no character would be able to keep all enemies at bay at all times. It would likely be an active action, forcing a tank to time his spear blows to push the enemy back. Miss the timing or get parried and you'll have to change the strat up.Exactly. It's silly to think that just holding your spear out would keep a mob at bay literally forever. They might hesitate and they might have to take a risk, but eventually the mob is going to try to dodge the spear or knock it out of the way. If they are unsuccessful, then they'll take damage. If they are successful, they'll be in close enough range to attack you. And if they have high-attack rate (fast) weapons, they'll be able to get in plenty of blows by the time you (the spear-wielder) manages to swing your weapon back around and get it in between you and the enemy. That's actually very balanced and a fun combat mechanic.
This is awesome. It could even be used as an alternative to, say, EQ's Kick, or Bash, as a way to interrupt casting or actions.
Or as just a skill with a small timer for classes with weaker armor mitigiation (ranger, rogue) as almost a "slow" type skill to decrease the amount of damage received for a short time.
Or, if they wanted to go completely illogical (it is high fantasy, after all), whirling it around for a nice AoE attack with knockback.
There are two classes I've played in RPG's and MMO's that have really stood out for me.
The Warden, in LOTRO - and the Stormlord, in Neverwinter Nights II. Both spear focused classes. If I can even get even a slight inkling of the feeling I got playing those characters, in Pantheon, I'll be a happy damn camper.
If youre going to allow spears to reach further than standard melee weapons (which would be a huge bonus) you would also need there to be some sort of penalty if someone is too close to you (think hunters in WoW unable to use ranged weapons within a certain distance) like the spear only doing 50% damage or so.
Porygon said:If youre going to allow spears to reach further than standard melee weapons (which would be a huge bonus) you would also need there to be some sort of penalty if someone is too close to you (think hunters in WoW unable to use ranged weapons within a certain distance) like the spear only doing 50% damage or so.
This is precisely why, in my example, the spear would have a slow(er) attack rate. That is what keeps it from being OP. Such a big (sometimes awkward) weapon would certainly take quite a long time to get it back in position to attack. Meanwhile, your enemy is all up in your business damaging you.
Spear fight in GoT
The Red Viper (Oberyn Martell) vs The Mountain full fight HD
