What if some quests and world events were delayed when the server launches to create a narrative for progression ?
Some could be time released and some could be opened by player progression.
I'm not suggesting to hold back a ton of content this way. Just enough to drive some form of story forward.
The more you add this type of thing the easier it becomes to launch a new server in the future as people who missed out on the progression will want to try it from the start.
Also I'm not suggesting there be patch notes about these releases it would just be up to the players to advance story lines as they find leads.
Continue this forward as expansions launch and carry the narrative forward every couple of weeks adding in new bread crumb trails.
I think a system like this could create some mystery and competition between guilds always trying to figure new things out.
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
The perennial issue of how can you have persistant world elements in a MMO where what players do actually changes the game world without destroying the experience for other players that may want to do the original content as released by the developers unmodified by different players.
The two approaches I have seen most commonly used over the years are (1) personalized content where you see the world one way and other players may see it a different way and (2) world events changing things for everyone, perhaps unlocked by player action but whole masses of players not one person.
One example of the first approach is where you may kill a NPC or send the NPC somewhere and from then on you no longer see the NPC but other players that haven't done that thing do see the NPC. Or perhaps in your story line a town is destroyed and from then on you see nothing but ruins and other players see merchants, buildings etc (one of many examples being the start of the Rohan expansion in LOTRO that worked this way).
Some examples of the second approach being where a race is introduced but it is only available on the server after players have done certain things (as in Frogloks in EQ2) or a new rapid transportation system like flying gryphons is introduced but only after players construct it or find and hatch the eggs and raise the chicks (as in, again, EQ2).
The key element to the second approach is that it shouldn't make things worse for new players/characters although they may want a "classic" server to replay the original version for the nostalgia. Thus adding a race or transportation system didn't generate too much unhappinenss but removing one assuredly would have.
I don't know that implementation needs to be delayed, but I think quests and content could be designed in such a way that players simply don't figure them out for a long time.
For example:
In the Steppes of Fu'Lun there is an ancient stone obelisk, with a curious engraving near the base. The engraving relates a bit of an ancient prophecy and has indentations where it looks like three cylindrical items can be placed.
One of the three cylindrical items is at the bottom of a nearby dungeon.
Another one is somehow half the world away, in the possession of a random monster in Khaga Sands.
The third is held in the vaults of the Dwarves, rewarded only to those who complete a task of great difficulty (another quest).
If players were to recover the three cylinders and place them in the obelisk, a stone panel would open, and in it players would find a strange device. This device could be used at other obelisks/ruins around the world to trigger various things. Trigger all of them in the right sequence (based on the inscriptions on each of them) and something special occurs - maybe an epic raid encounter with amazing rewards. Trigger them in the wrong sequence, and the device is destroyed and the three cylinders vanish, this time to three different locations from where they started. Essentially, forcing players to start over.
Starting out, players don't know any of this. They can't even translate the engravings until they have found some records of the ancient language used to write them. They might find the cylinders and not even know about the obelisk. Even if they get the three cylinders and get the device, they might know now where to use it or what it's used for. Even then, they have to figure out the right sequence and it's easy to mess up.
All of this could be implemented in the game at launch and if done right, it might still take players months to figure it out and even trigger the raid event at the end. It's amazing how much more fun and interesting quests and lore can be when you take away the "golden path" that sits on the side of the screen and points people at the next quest objective :)
If you're suggesting time-gating, it's a big fat NO for me. Time-gating is where you can only progges a certain ammount each week, and need to wait until the next reset to continue, this can be aplied to currencies, quests, reputation, unlocking of zones. To me, this is killing the freedom of the players and telling them **** you, you don't get to invest your time as you please, you have to wait and do it slowly and keep paying the sub to see the next proggresion step in the following month. Again a huge fat NO.
If you're talking of server efforts to unlock zones, or events, where the entire server needs to work together in building resources, gathering materials and helping in whatever way they can then it's a yes for me, but with no time-gating, where you can only progress a certain amount each week, that to me is killing the players freedom and enjoyment of the game.
I like the idea, but not the implementation. As Nephele pointed out there's other ways to accomplish the goal of keeping the mystery of the world alive. There's lots of ways you can get creative with quests if you abandon the notion of "quests having to be done at/near the quest hub and within a timely manner so that the next hub will be reached in an average playtime of x to promote healthy progression."
Difficulty via obscurity (Nephele's suggestion) would be nice to see here and there. Everquest did a great job of this and it still seems ridiculous to me that people spent the time to figure out the things they did.
Perhaps if you wanted something time-based like the OP suggested you could tie in quests to time of day, season, weather pattern, solstice, or even an astrological event (comet passing, meteor shower, eclipse, etc.). I think it would be neat if there were monthly repeating events where enemies were given a buff, but killing them could yield "empowered blood" or something of the like. You could consult your local librarian to determine the timing of the events. If you're looking to make the world feel new, then there's multiple ways to go about it. There are one-time events that change the world as you see it forever and initially make it feel new again and I would say the OP's suggestion falls into this category. There are also repeating events that change the world and make it feel new again - The first snowfall, leaves changing colour, or seasonal holidays that are celebrated with others can all refresh our worldview for a period of time. I would think it would be worth it to create repeating events that were only around for a day or so every month or few months that only really impact a subset of the content. The nature of these events could also be obscured until players realize the connections.
The main issue now a days is that data mining files is a thing. People find stuff before it even hits live servers. Makes things really hard to hide.
@jpedrote - he wasn't refering to that time gating I don't think. Think he was refering to more letting out further parts of the story over time rather than all at once.
To quote one of Raph Koster's old rules.... "Never put anything on the client. The client is in the hands of the enemy."
To some extent I don't think we can avoid people looking at what's on their PCs (or even what's coming over the network) and trying to use it to be "more efficient". However, knowing the ID of a drop in the item database does not mean you know WHERE it drops - at least, not if that database is set up well :)
Plus, if I were a dev and wanted to mess with people who data mine, I'd throw all kinds of crazy stuff into that item database and then just never hook it up at all - and then when people ask, spin some story about how it's meant to be very rare and drops from a very special raid encounter out there. So while they're off trying frantically to figure out where the Sword of Infinite Power drops, everyone who doesn't data mine is off enjoying the stuff that's actually implemented. But I'm mean like that ;)
This is something I would love to see done. A longer story that unfolds across a long period of time. I wouldn't want ti time based, but server participation based. Meaning that the story would not progress until the entire server got together to kill a crazy hard boss or make some world changing event happen. This should be something we have to figure out for our selves. Leave it unsaid on how to progress. After the story progressed and this world changing event happened, the world would change for everyone. Some older content, not much but some, would then be changed and unavailable forever.
I think this would give the world a feel of being alive. Newer player would hear stories about what had happened. Each server would unlock at it's own pace.
I really want to see a living world, not a static world.
@Dorotea - One of the methods you describe (where the gameworld changes for an individual player) is often refered to as phasing. And I personally feel that phasing is abhorent. It creates way to many scenarios in which players who are not at exactly the same point in a story's progression cannot adventure together because they arent seeing the same things within the gameworld. It makes it so that you almost can't go out and play the game with a character on your own if you intend to play with that character with your friends and family for fear that you'll break your abiilty to participate with them later. I didn't get the impression you were promoting this notion, but I thought it worthwhile to elaborate on it.
@Enitzo - If the public is able to datamine what exists on the game servers, the game is already dead. At that point system security is compromised and the integrity gone. And as Nephele mentioned, nothing of any real value should be on a client installation at all. It should be little more than the graphics files and interface functionality, with all gameplay information being parceled out from the servers in a least-need manner.
I'll keep this short.
1) No to phasing. Just, no. @Feyshtey nailed it above.
2) Time-gating, which IS what they described. Progression released on a schedule rather than being available. No. This is artificial and lame.
The issue is our sense of entitlement that has given us this notion we deserve to experience all content. That is not what you're paying for, and the developers do not owe it to you. If you want that, play a single player game. An MMO world should change and sometimes you miss out on things, and that is OK! It sucks, but it's okay. It adds WAY more to the world when this possibility exists.
I also liked @Nephele's example. Not that exact scenario, but that is close enough.
I don't see any real need for 'time-gating' anything. Just create a few of these :
World Level 'Quests' put on the server(s) pre-launch:
Typically these would affect the world status in a meaningful way. It could be as simple as changing the day/night time cycle (game hours of day/night from 12/12 to 6/18 say) or causing bunnies to spawn as were-bunnies. These changes should be a 'Lore based event' that moves the server along a (one of many possible) path. Not every server need even progress the same way as each other.
Server #1 and #2 might kill all 7 of the 'Key Holders' thus opening the 'Seven Locked gate' and causing the Blood Moon. While this is in effect, there is a count kept of carrots eaten by the were-bunnies. If it reaches 66,600 before the end of 3 RL months, then the Arch-Were-Rabbit has gained a foothold in Terminus and will enter his new lair (an empty cave complex)! Should the number of Were-bunnies killed exceed 9,999 the the 9-Tailed Fox-Queen has enough blood to to cast "Fatal Attraction" on the King's Mistress and turn her into a Bunny-Boiler. In either case, the 'Shadows that Wait'; long hidden in the dark pool behind the seven locked gate will awaken.
Now Server #1 may have the Arch-Were-Rabbit running about .... while
Server #2 may have the King's Mistress gone mad and causing mayhem!
Some of these events can have 'world changing' effects, but without having to require much in the way of extra assets/patching.
Evoras, is worried about were-bunnies...
Angrykiz said:What if some quests and world events were delayed when the server launches to create a narrative for progression ?
Some could be time released and some could be opened by player progression.
I'm not suggesting to hold back a ton of content this way. Just enough to drive some form of story forward.
The more you add this type of thing the easier it becomes to launch a new server in the future as people who missed out on the progression will want to try it from the start.
Also I'm not suggesting there be patch notes about these releases it would just be up to the players to advance story lines as they find leads.
Continue this forward as expansions launch and carry the narrative forward every couple of weeks adding in new bread crumb trails.
I think a system like this could create some mystery and competition between guilds always trying to figure new things out.
Thanks in advance,
Kiz~
All of this is completely unnecessary as there exists mechanics which already make all this possible:
1. Level requirement. NPC won't talk to you until you are above X level.
2. Faction standing requirement. NPC wont talk to you until you have a certain faction standing or higher.
3. Time requirement. Some NPCs won't talk to you during certain times of day or only spawn during certain times of day, or week, or month, or around some in-game holiday.
4. Previous quest requirement. This usually ties into the faction standing but in EQ1/2 VG and others you needed to complete other quests first.
5. Zone requirement. Some NPCs are in keyed zones so naturally you need access there first.
All of these, used separately, all together or in any combination already give a sense of progression because one day you won't even know a quest exists from this NPC but the next day after you killed a few hundred Orcs suddenly this NPC spills his guts about how he needs your help. That is progression.
While I love when new quests are introduced, that should happen when new expansions arrive. All quests within an expansion should be there at release, complete and functional. I don't want to see another PoEarth fiasco where the encounter wasn't completed because the PoTime wasn't complete at release.
Nephele said:Plus, if I were a dev and wanted to mess with people who data mine, I'd throw all kinds of crazy stuff into that item database and then just never hook it up at all - and then when people ask, spin some story about how it's meant to be very rare and drops from a very special raid encounter out there. So while they're off trying frantically to figure out where the Sword of Infinite Power drops, everyone who doesn't data mine is off enjoying the stuff that's actually implemented. But I'm mean like that ;)
Sounds good to me! And very RPG-esque. As a DM back in the day, I had no problem doing this sort of thing to players that thought they found some sort of way to 'cheat' the rules.
Feyshtey said:@Enitzo - If the public is able to datamine what exists on the game servers, the game is already dead. At that point system security is compromised and the integrity gone. And as Nephele mentioned, nothing of any real value should be on a client installation at all. It should be little more than the graphics files and interface functionality, with all gameplay information being parceled out from the servers in a least-need manner.
Every game in history has been datamined. EQ was. WoW was and still is. It doesn't kill the game and it doesn't compromise security.
Hell go look at mmo-champion.com right now. Assure you that you will see everything coming in wows new patch. Been this way for decades.
I think this also touches on another point.
Here we are knowing Pantheon will come out and we will be the "population" and it will be large and robust
There may be folks from the general public that have heard of pantheon, but are waiting to see if it has legs.
Some may wait untill 2 or 3 years into the games life before making the plunge and buying pantheon and subbing. I speak from my own experience with EQ, I heard about it in 99 but didnt buy it untill trilogy- as that seemed like a bargain. There were still newbies like myself looking around and making mistakes and trying to get groups, but there seemed less and less new players joining.
After about 2 years from trilogy it was hard to find players to even give away old armor.However I did see life in my home city when the warrens were opened up and that was exciting because there were people my level that i could get to know.
So from a progression standpoint, I see this topic covering expansions as well as keeping starting cities relevant. I would like ot see pantheon to also try to be the game that allows a new player the same experience, even if they know no one and start 5 years into the MMO's life.
Progeny will solve a lot of problems. It's such a powerful mechanic ... I really just hope enough people can get on board with it. I know a lot of people won't be excited to relevel, but if the permanent retirement aspect is taken out of the equation maybe more people could be accepting of it. There should never be a lonely zone or tier. Veterans would ideally be recycled into the population over and over again and that would provide a great boost to the lower-mid tier economy as well.
Even without progeny, I feel like top end pooling can be mitigated by being smart with content distribution. For example, having quest related npc's for all levels live in the npc towns and cities, rather than level banding them. Likewise, adding reasons for higher level players to have to go back to lower level areas, maybe in the form of triggered events. Basically by avoiding the level based zone concept, and instead trying to insure that low, mid, and high level content is presented side by side as much as is practical/possible.
If the game can do that then progeny is just the icing on the cake.