Forums » Pantheon Classes

    • 251 posts
    September 4, 2017 8:02 AM PDT

    looking for ideas in the pet class. My idea is that pets should start weeak and gain ability as they get older. In other words if you have a pet and it is level 10 than it should start out as a lower level, say 2 levels lower and progress to a max level 1 level higher than the character. If for some reason your pet dies than it starts back 2 levels lower than the caster and needs to grow a little. If you dismiss it for some reason or not it can be regened back at your level but not at its former level. This may keep pet classes at a little more keel with regular classes.

    • Moderator
    • 7436 posts
    September 4, 2017 8:59 AM PDT

    Moved to "Classes" subforum as it relates to class pets.

    • 251 posts
    September 4, 2017 5:11 PM PDT

    What if rather than being a seperate sort of temporary progression, they just act instead like a combined character team that can weaken in combat, over time, or hunger?  So instead of having a sense of loss during failure, and then temporary growth, you have a sense of need to sustain top performance, and shared development.

    • 460 posts
    September 7, 2017 12:04 PM PDT

    I like the first idea about the pet losing power when it dies.  As far as "having a sense of loss", I consider that a good thing and it could even be taken further.  Maybe the pet loses exp/levels just like a player.  It can theoretically be deleveled all the way to lvl one. That would make players utilize pets much more carefully than they usually do in most games where they are an unlimited/expendable resource.

    It was the sense of loss that gave the feeling of challenge in first gen mmos (usually in the form of harsh exp penalties and level loss).  That sense of loss through hardship is the type of challenge that Pantheon is trying to revert back to.  Most mmos these days have turned into the "everyone wins" mind set where loss is very brief/temporary.

    I hope we get a game filled with steep penalties and loss.  There are plenty of games out there without them. 


    This post was edited by philo at September 7, 2017 12:05 PM PDT
    • 251 posts
    September 7, 2017 1:34 PM PDT

    Loss the for the sake of loss, with no learning, is not going to create a positive overall experience.  Even though it may seem that way on the surface.  There is far more to it.

    The idea behind painful penalties is skill development, yes, but what was far more important was player interdependence.  It was not the pain of the corpse run, it was the reliance you were forced to have on other players that separated EQ from all the clones that came after it.  The idea that the "pain of losing" somehow made early MMO's better is the result of a meme.  A very misguided, but hilarious meme.  It is only part of the story.

    If your pets are always temporary, and they are limited by your character's development, there is nothing to gain, or learn, from a penalty for their death.  There is no interdependence created, there is no skill development.  Your pet will just be weak every time you summon it, or it dies.  Semantically you can argue that skill is developed when you learn how to avoid letting your pet die, but that skill is diminished to near meaninglessness by the fact that you can simply summon a new pet.

    So in order to make that loss functional, the pet would have to be permanent, have its own character sheet, its own skill development, AND require another class to revive the pet's corpse if it dies.  And then there is the whole "what does this thing need to eat and drink?" line of reasoning.  And where does it go when I dismiss it?  Also do I need a scooper?  You can get silly with it if you want to.  But the point is very simple.

    How much can you clone for the pet, before you create a new second character?

    A solution to all of that, is to make the Pet Class more like a 3 piece suit.  So you and your pet, share the same loss, already designed to create interdependence, and further skill development.  Then you can fully incorporate the Pets and Character into the same character sheet as one combined character with pets.

    Or you can go the other direction and make pets more like abilities and remove the loss mechanic entirely.  Because there is very little to learn from having to level your Fireball back up to max every time you fizzle.  Right?  Or do you want a class skill for retraining spells after you fizzle too?  That could be fun, but probably really tedious.

     

     

     


    This post was edited by ZennExile at September 7, 2017 1:35 PM PDT
    • 460 posts
    September 7, 2017 3:09 PM PDT

    I think you are disregarding loss for the sake of loss.  It has little to do with improving or developing after you understand the basic concepts around playing your class (ie the tutorial stages/leveling). 

    Harsh penalties invoke players to use a cautious play style.  They demand a respect for the environment. Those same harsh penalties also add to the feeling of accomplishment a player might derive from even the smallest task. 

    Granted, using EQ as an example, there were some players who were unable to, or were not dedicated enough, to even get through the developmental stages where they learn the basic concept of their class (partly because of struggling to overcome the penalties).  So, in that sense you do have a point if you are only referring to the period when the player is still learning how to play. 

    Once you get past that tutorial period however, is when loss for the sake of loss becomes so important.  You get to the point that everyone knows their class and the rate of development plateaus.  At that point it is only the harsh penalties that really keep people having a "fear" of their surrounding.  The only thing that keeps the world from becoming overly trivial are harsh penalties and instilled losses.  They keep players "honest".  Keep players on their toes because there is always that concern in the back of their mind that you don't want to suffer the penalty.

    Edit: I know I got away from the specific pet discussion, but it all relates.  I felt the need to respond to your first 2 paragraphs.


    This post was edited by philo at September 7, 2017 3:25 PM PDT
    • 251 posts
    September 7, 2017 4:18 PM PDT

    If your only reason to post, is an attempt to prove something wrong, you should not be posting.  At all.  Look how defensive you are over me just inferring that you don't have enough information.  So defensive that you were compelled to ignore the rest of the post, and even the topic, just to make meaningless semantic argument that I already addressed, in the rest of the message.  You ignored, because you were so triggered.

    You are not totally wrong, you just do not have all the information.  Which is what I pointed out, by first attempting to acknowledge your perspective, and address it, and then expand on it, and offer alternatives to it.  But you got triggered.  And made a post you know you should not have.

    • 460 posts
    September 7, 2017 4:31 PM PDT

    I guess when you don't have anything further to add to the discussion it is easiest to point fingers.  I'm happy to continue discussing the second half of your other post.  I just felt the first 2 paragraphs warranted its own response.  Not sure why you feel that post was defensive?  I think we just have a different opinion on the value of in game penalties.  Apparently your opinion won't be swayed judging by that response haha.

    None of the stuff I said above is ground breaking.  It has all been discussed before.  I was simply pointing out a few points you seemed to overlook when discussing in game loss.  We can move on from it though.  No skin off my back /shrug.

    • 2 posts
    September 8, 2017 10:32 AM PDT

    Here is what I haven't seen any MMORPG do since Everquest and even then they didn't do exactly what I am thinking. Think of D&D, how it has evolved with advanced classes like the summoner who focuses on the control of an eidolon (pet) and/or summoned creatures through spells. Most summoners can't do real damage through spells so what do I see a lot of summoners do? I see then take defensive spells they can cast on themselves and on their pets (halving duration if shared with a pet).

    I would LOVE to see a game take a pet class and the character DOES NOT focus on damage, thats the pets job. I want to see a pet class send their pet in and only have to worry about defensive abilities or spells while the pet goes on a rampage. I want to be able to summon things for my pet to use or wear or even be able to dismiss my pet and use a spell that summons random numbers or random mobs that maybe do more damage but dont get the benefits of the defensive abilities from the spellcaster like the Eidolon does.

    Like I said, a bit of a pipe dream but I would L-O-V-E a class like that.

    • 460 posts
    September 8, 2017 10:49 AM PDT

    ecdubz said:

    Here is what I haven't seen any MMORPG do since Everquest and even then they didn't do exactly what I am thinking. Think of D&D, how it has evolved with advanced classes like the summoner who focuses on the control of an eidolon (pet) and/or summoned creatures through spells. Most summoners can't do real damage through spells so what do I see a lot of summoners do? I see then take defensive spells they can cast on themselves and on their pets (halving duration if shared with a pet).

    I would LOVE to see a game take a pet class and the character DOES NOT focus on damage, thats the pets job. I want to see a pet class send their pet in and only have to worry about defensive abilities or spells while the pet goes on a rampage. I want to be able to summon things for my pet to use or wear or even be able to dismiss my pet and use a spell that summons random numbers or random mobs that maybe do more damage but dont get the benefits of the defensive abilities from the spellcaster like the Eidolon does.

    Like I said, a bit of a pipe dream but I would L-O-V-E a class like that.

    I like that line of thought.  What if it went a step further and neither the mage Nor The Pet were damaged based.  Could be be a CC class/healer/trap monkey, whatever...but the player doesn't actually CC or heal, the pet does based on how the player buffs/uses it.  It could open up an interesting path where the player is the support while the pet plays the primary role (which is pretty much what you said above...with a bit of expansion on that thought).

    It might be tough because of delay between given commands and the pet ai.  It would make the minimization of lag and poor pathing/pet movement crucial to be able to play a class like that well.

    • 251 posts
    September 8, 2017 4:04 PM PDT

    ecdubz said:

    Here is what I haven't seen any MMORPG do since Everquest and even then they didn't do exactly what I am thinking. Think of D&D, how it has evolved with advanced classes like the summoner who focuses on the control of an eidolon (pet) and/or summoned creatures through spells. Most summoners can't do real damage through spells so what do I see a lot of summoners do? I see then take defensive spells they can cast on themselves and on their pets (halving duration if shared with a pet).

    I would LOVE to see a game take a pet class and the character DOES NOT focus on damage, thats the pets job. I want to see a pet class send their pet in and only have to worry about defensive abilities or spells while the pet goes on a rampage. I want to be able to summon things for my pet to use or wear or even be able to dismiss my pet and use a spell that summons random numbers or random mobs that maybe do more damage but dont get the benefits of the defensive abilities from the spellcaster like the Eidolon does.

    Like I said, a bit of a pipe dream but I would L-O-V-E a class like that.

    Not a pipe dream at all.  This is exactly the sort of game where that kind of Pet Class might have a home.  The issue comes in balancing a sense of control over a pet, with a sense of automation.  The more you give to a pet the less you can leave on the character as far as function goes. But any archetype should work as a summoner pet combo.  As long as the summoner is doing most of the work.

    I think a combined multi-unit character solves this issue as well though.  Imagine it like 1 part of your team is defense, 1 is offense, and 1 is control.  And rather than commanding from the perspective of 1, you issue commands that blend all 3 into a single action.  Like clicking an ability would tell the defensive one to shout, the offensive one to smoke/stealth/charge up, and the control one to aoe snare, or aoe stun.  And then the next skill would be a choice between more AoE, and control, or single target damage burst from all 3 at once.

    Each member of the team would represent a 1/3 scale aproximation of existing archetypes.  Or 1/4 or 1/2, or 1/10,000  It does not matter much whether you are a swarm of insects or a pair of brothers/sisters, all that matters is that the combined force is 1 single character.  Then you can do almost anything with the combination.

     


    This post was edited by ZennExile at September 8, 2017 4:19 PM PDT
    • 800 posts
    September 13, 2017 5:13 PM PDT

    ecdubz said:

    I would LOVE to see a game take a pet class and the character DOES NOT focus on damage, thats the pets job. I want to see a pet class send their pet in and only have to worry about defensive abilities or spells while the pet goes on a rampage. I want to be able to summon things for my pet to use or wear or even be able to dismiss my pet and use a spell that summons random numbers or random mobs that maybe do more damage but dont get the benefits of the defensive abilities from the spellcaster like the Eidolon does.

    Like I said, a bit of a pipe dream but I would L-O-V-E a class like that.

    I'd like to introduce you to Dark Ages of Camelot.  The Necromancer there was exactly that.  The player was useless without the pet.  Everything was done through the pet. The Necro was so dependent upon the pet that when the pet died, the Necro lost nearly all its health.  The Theurgist also was a primary pet class (controllable swarm pets) but did have some offensive capabilities though limited.

    • 7 posts
    September 26, 2017 7:52 AM PDT

    this game seems slow based and tactical enough, to have a class that completle controls its pet, tells it what attacks to use, etc like FFXI BEASTMASTER- TAKE NOTE