Forums » Pantheon Races

Serious Racial Rethink?

    • 26 posts
    September 2, 2017 12:39 AM PDT

    Visionary Realms I ask that you seriously rethink the racial options in Pantheon.  I would hold back some races as unlockables, with the general D&D races being the base choices.  The unlockable races could simply be obtainable by visiting their cities or obtaining faction, or a quest, by an account character.  This would enrich the game with mystery and journey, as opposed to just giving all options from start and also reducing the confusion of diverse races.

    I would also have normal gnomes with the plasma versions being an unlockable.  I'm sure you can rewrite the lore/history to accommodate this.  The plasma gnomes are too confronting to the large populations of mmorpg players that play gnomes and want realistic humanoid looks rather than mechanical looking Plasma-Gnomes.  I've tried to come to grips with Plasma Gnomes if there were humanoid masks to be purchased and worn, but I'm not even assured these will be avallable to hide the Plasma-Gnome faces.  I would also find it acceptable to have Ogres and Trolls as base races since they worked well in EQ1.

    It's important to realise that players want to love their characters and EQ1 proved people get attached to their creations and want the graphics to suit.  Everything from breasts to proportions, racial sizes and heights, are imperative.  Example when EQ1 changed the player model containers, many players left the game.  Your current line up of races is too obscure to make it comfortable.  You could turn off customers.

    Also seriously consider Dark Elves and Black Elves (Erudite style) too.

    The races that should be unlocked: [Pantheon = AD&D]
    Archai = ?  Grey Elf?
    Skar = Dragonborn
    Dark Myr = Tiefling
    ? = Half Orc
    (Plasma) Gnomes = ?

    Base races: [Pantheon = AD&D]
    Dwarves = Dwarves
    Ogre = ?
    Human = Human.
    Halflings = Halflings
    Elves = Elves
    ? = Gnomes

    Black Elves (Erudite equivalent) (separate city from other elves.)
    Dark Elves (separate city from other elves.)


    This post was edited by rencil at September 2, 2017 2:10 AM PDT
    • 1630 posts
    September 2, 2017 6:27 AM PDT

    I think it's actually a nice mix.  There are a handful of the "standard" races that are available for those who like that, there are a couple of new races available for those that would prefer to be something different, and there are different takes on the standard races as well.

    I think one of the draws to this game is the fact that it's not a cookie cutter fantasy game, it has its own elements to it.

    As for the EQ1 people leaving because character models changed, this is the first I've heard of that.  And why would people leave over character models changing, since they had the option of using the old or the new ones for a very long time?  Heck, the option may still be in there for all I know.

    • 26 posts
    September 2, 2017 6:45 AM PDT

    kelenin said:

    I think it's actually a nice mix.  There are a handful of the "standard" races that are available for those who like that, there are a couple of new races available for those that would prefer to be something different, and there are different takes on the standard races as well.

    I think one of the draws to this game is the fact that it's not a cookie cutter fantasy game, it has its own elements to it.

    As for the EQ1 people leaving because character models changed, this is the first I've heard of that.  And why would people leave over character models changing, since they had the option of using the old or the new ones for a very long time?  Heck, the option may still be in there for all I know.

    Like mentioned I think handing out all the player races is a lost opportunity to use some as rewards for exploration or quests. Second I think the range of races is too confronting/obscure for the majority of players to like or invest in the game. Example a Plasma-Gnome is like trying to decorate Tinman from Wizard of OZ. There's little to no persona in their makeup. Maybe masks will help but.

    Yes people left EQ1 over model changes as there were a lot of players modelling their character with sets of gear just for visiting cities and auction tunnel in commons for others to admire. Other words if others saw them in the new model, it destroyed the purpose of the design choices. I didn't do this myself but I knew others that did.  It didn't help that EQ1 model changes went from attractive design, even though low polygon count, to the horrid and ugly shaped.

     


    This post was edited by rencil at September 2, 2017 7:01 AM PDT
    • 208 posts
    September 2, 2017 7:42 AM PDT

    It's really disheartening seeing people come in and ask for such huge and drastic changes like it's nothing. Phrases like "I'm sure you guys can change this no problem" and "You could turn off some customers". It's almost like a scare tactic some people try to use, "HEY, if you don't do this, these customers won't be buying your game. Hey we want this, you guys should have NO problem changing it. I don't care that you already put a lot of time in effort to the current lore, change it."

    I hope you've been reading up on what VR is focusing on for Pantheon, because you're on the wrong band-wagon if you think these guys are going to switch a game around to fit exactly what a few people want. They aren't making a game specifically to anyone's liking. And they aren't going to throw away their hard work just to fix it for a few players. Don't get me wrong, they should definitely listen to their consumers if there's something seriously wrong or if a large portion of their community is turned off by something (Like going F2P instead, or having some form of a cash shop). Pantheon =/= EQ1 or EQ2. The only thing they are trying to do similar is the classes, but even those won't be the exact same. Races are totally different and I love it. You wouldn't go to a starwars game and have them change the sith characters around because some of them need point ears to represent elves. It's ass backwards. They are creating a lore around the game they want to create. A game similar to EQ1, EQ2, and Vanguard (not sequels or replicas) to bring back a genre of players and a certain type of game people have been searching for.

    I think your main issue is you're thinking Pantheon is SUPPOSE to be exactly like another game. You just need to toss that idea out the window, flush it down the toilet or burn it with fire. It's a totally different game, with different lore and different concepts. Brad is creating a game that should have been Vanguard or EQ2. But he DOES NOT want Pantheon to be the next edition of either 2 games. He's stated that in an interview. I hope you reread what Pantheon and VR is about and what their main focuses for creating this game are. I also hope it doesn't turn you off knowing it won't be exactly like EQ1, because you'll will be missing out on a good game.

    EDIT: because it's bugging me. I feel like you didn't read much of the lore. Gnomes are ethereal. Spirit like in a sense. They have no flesh. They were able to reposses their souls with a certain cloth created by them and this Elos star. So they were actually originally humanoids, but their history/lore changed their appearance and showed how. Probably won't help you change your mind about how gnomes are "suppose" to look.


    This post was edited by fancy at September 2, 2017 7:59 AM PDT
    • 26 posts
    September 2, 2017 8:25 AM PDT

    I appreciate your reply Fancy and fathom your perspective.  The point is having so many diverse races is too confronting for most players.  Example Humans are the most played characters in mmorpgs, even though I personally never play them, the point is people like whats comfortable and tailoring to their desires.  Having races that are "cold" to the hearts and minds will simply sabotage the game's success, even though the sophistication of diverse characters can still be in the game, but as special unlockables.  Start the players off with what's familiar, then make it exciting with the unique races coming into play as people progress.

    I personally am struggling with the want to play the Plasma-Gnomes, even though every mmorpg I always play a gnome as my main.  I would be quite happy with normal gnomes existing and plasma-gnomes being variants.

    Tailoring characters is a huge draw card.  Think about the past success of games like Second Life.  It wouldn't have had its success if the makers enforced people to be robots, or elementals.  People wanted contentment in their avatars.

    The developer will know in themselves if what I'm saying has validity.


    This post was edited by rencil at September 2, 2017 8:30 AM PDT
    • 1002 posts
    September 2, 2017 8:32 AM PDT

    As far as the OP wanting somevto be unlocked at later dates by quest or whatever, I'm not sure i see the point in that. If I want to play a Skar i have to partially level up a human first?  That makes no sence to me.

    Now taking in to account Fancy's point, it's too late to change now, and I wouldent want them to, I really do think the Gnome as they have it is a mistake  (not game breaking, just odd) what they have is a totaly different character than a gnome... in my opinion have this model, but call it something else, it's not a gnome. I see it like these car manufacturers trying to sell a car by badging it with the name of a popular 70 muscle car. The GTO, the 80's 4cyl Charger, those abominations the mustang and Camaro evolved into in the 90's that nearly killed them. Its just a bad design choice imo.

    My second choice for a character would normally be a gnome necro, but not that gnome, I'll need to find something else. Or (my hope) maybe down the road an Ancient Gnome race will be found, one from before they turned themselves into plasma blobs. That actually look like a gnomes.

    • 208 posts
    September 2, 2017 8:43 AM PDT

    Do you have statistics supporting your claims? I would love to read into some of them myself.

    By humans do you mean humans or humanoids?

    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Personally, I disagree. If all of a sudden they got rid of Archai and Dark Myr and the Gnomes, and they adjusted them to look more HUMAN, I think more people would be turned off by that alone. I sure as heck would. It wouldn't even remotely be the same game anymore. Gnomes come from a different planet. Same with the Myr. These new races are literally flying through space and time and such to come to Terminus. We have gods and evil armies in the lore. And a massive frickin' dragon the size of a mountain. And a group of war-wizards flying around to save the world. It just wouldn't be the same story or game if you tried to change the races.

    I just can't see the valid reason behind asking such drastic changes. It literally would not even be Pantheon anymore. It would be Everquest 1 v2 mixed in with a bit of D&D? 

    Can someone explain the differences between Gnomes, Halfings, and Dwarves? Besides their lore - in terms of appearance - what is the difference? I know the difference for Pantheon, but what about EQ1 and Vanguard and other games.

     


    This post was edited by fancy at September 2, 2017 8:47 AM PDT
    • 26 posts
    September 2, 2017 8:48 AM PDT

    If things have to be changed to make the game a success then better now than live game.   Lets have a game where people love their characters and revel in kitting them out or even the news of marriages and relationships in game and out.  The obscure will be road blocks to success, but if done properly can be exciting discoveries.

    Fancy: That's common knowledge that humans are the most played.  Humanoids, obviously most popular if compared to non humanoids.  I'm not asking for any races to be removed, just unlocked.  The unlocking could be simple, like those that run to the racial cities and get the achievement ding.  The Lore wouldn't need changing, just added to.


    This post was edited by rencil at September 2, 2017 8:57 AM PDT
    • 208 posts
    September 2, 2017 8:53 AM PDT

    These changes aren't even guaranteeing success though. lol. There's no for sure large sum of people that are going to play this game with these changes made. In fact, VR is more than likely to lose money if making such drastic changes. If they changed the lore and the concept, and set themselves back further, people would withdraw their pledges. 

    • 26 posts
    September 2, 2017 9:07 AM PDT

    Fancy, the least thing I want to do is upset people or have people regret changes.  Maybe people should weigh in on how they feel about the races and if they will be content with kitting them out and parading their characters?  Are some races "cold" making them unplayable?

    • 208 posts
    September 2, 2017 9:17 AM PDT

    I just get this weird feeling with the "kitting out" and "purchasing masks" bit that you're talking about a cash shop. I love when people add in their own flavor of ideas for the game and what they imagine stuff to look like or what abilities the classes may have. That's cool. However they aren't asking the developers to completely scrap the game to fit it to their liking.

    I think that right there is just where we differ in view points. I'm all for ideas and creations. I've made some creations myself for the VIP competition. Will those scenes or characters look that way? Possibly not. Am I okay with that? Yes

    But that's okay. Hopefully other people chime in and share their opinions as well. Only the community will be able to tell you and show you how successful this game will be if changes are made or not made. So far though, Pantheon is successful as is because of the people that have already pledged and supported this game. Would just like to point that out.


    This post was edited by fancy at September 2, 2017 9:18 AM PDT
    • 26 posts
    September 2, 2017 9:28 AM PDT

    Hopefully what people kit-out is obtained from battles or in game bartering or unique crafting. I'd hate the game to become a circus parade with giant swords etc.  The difference in gear should be conservative.

    • 74 posts
    September 2, 2017 1:35 PM PDT

    Personally I really like the gnome models, I like the way they fit into the lore and I wouldn't want them changed.

    You have to keep in mind that its impossible to make things that everyone will love. I think the races as they are give a good spread of classic races that people can play if they want a more familiar feel and alien races that people can use if they want to have a new start in a new game. 

    • 413 posts
    September 2, 2017 8:25 PM PDT

    Solution is simple. As with any other feature of Pantheon such as crafting, harvesting, progeny etc. etc., if you don't like it, dont use it. If you dont like the gnomem don't play it, choose something else. Like someone already mentioned, do I have to play my human to level 50 to play an ethereal gnome or a skar?  I hope not ....

    • 26 posts
    September 3, 2017 1:07 AM PDT

    Durp said:Solution is simple. As with any other feature of Pantheon such as crafting, harvesting, progeny etc. etc., if you don't like it, dont use it. If you dont like the gnome don't play it, choose something else.

    I don't think VR wants to hear that.  Any game company wants the broadest appeal possible, with epic flare.

    • 208 posts
    September 3, 2017 7:01 AM PDT

    rencil said:

    Durp said:Solution is simple. As with any other feature of Pantheon such as crafting, harvesting, progeny etc. etc., if you don't like it, dont use it. If you dont like the gnome don't play it, choose something else.

    I don't think VR wants to hear that.  Any game company wants the broadest appeal possible, with epic flare.

    Wrong.

    FAQ - General - It Sounds Like Pantheon Is Bringing Back A Lot Of 'Older' MMO Game Mechanics. Is Pantheon A Clone Of Older Games Or A Modern MMO?

    Answer: Pantheon is most definitely a modern MMO with modern graphics and new and exciting features and mechanics. There are already emulators out there that are clones of earlier MMOs and Visionary Realms has no desire to make another emulator. That said, we also feel that many of the features and mechanics of previous MMOs have been abandoned in more recent games, resulting in a less challenging, compelling, deep, and social experience. Pantheon, therefore, will indeed bring back some of these conventional mechanics and ideas but with a fresh perspective, some tweaks and revisions. We also understand that while gamers’ tastes don’t fundamentally change over time, their situations, lives, and responsibilities do. Likewise, some game mechanics often associated with earlier MMOs involved inordinate amounts of downtime, overly severe penalties, too much competition over content and resources, and even downright boring or overly repetitive gameplay. Our intention, therefore, is not to bring back ‘everything’ from the old days, but rather to pick and choose those which make sense and are needed to make a fun, social, cooperative, and challenging game.

    FAQ - General - Who Is The Targeted Player (Demographic) Base For This Game, And Why?

    Answer: While some MMOs have been designed with the goal and desire to appeal to all gamers, all of the time, we at Visionary Realms believe the future of MMOs is all about making more focused games, targeting specific gamers with distinct preferences. Pantheon is first and foremost a deeply social game. Players who desire cooperative play, working together as a team, and the shared experiences that result from playing with other real people to overcome challenges will enjoy Pantheon. Players who want an MMO to be their home and to interact with communities and player-driven economies will find what they are looking for in Pantheon. Why? We feel that, at least recently, the MMO players who enjoy these elements have been orphaned. In fact, the Visionary Realms team feels they are part of this orphaned group. And it doesn’t take a lot of research to find countless articles, blogs, and posts full of players looking for the kind of experience we aim to offer in Pantheon.

     

    I seriously don't think you did enough reading about VR or Pantheon. I can share some links if you'd like. Most people start with the FAQ. You seem to just mostly have assumptions about what VR wants, but those assumptions are mostly wrong. Brad has some blog posts on the forums you can read up on too, so you know how the guy 'with the idea' thinks and feels about MMOs and Pantheon today. There's also Brad's AMA on reddit where people ask Brad questions and share the same concerns, and he talks about a very broad range of topics. Someone went even as far as to make a whole document for the streams and the questions that were asked and answered. Those are hours of gameplay and stream time where a variety of people ask tons of questions that the dev can brief on or go into great detail about or even show you on the live stream.

    I hope this helps, as you seem to be very confused about the goals VR has set for themselves and the game they are trying to create.


    This post was edited by fancy at September 3, 2017 7:03 AM PDT
    • 26 posts
    September 3, 2017 10:09 AM PDT

    Fancy I don't think that response was totally compatible with the statement made.   Do you always try to checkmate people?  VR _will_ want the "broadest appeal".  They're aiming more like a restaurant offering a cuisine, rather than holus bolus meals from around the world dumped into polystyrene foam take-away containers.  If you think VR doesn't want a killer mmorpg on their books with millions paying to play then you're probably kidding yourself.  If I get their motives correct, I'd expect an epic, quality, well geared game that is enriched with play options, events and outcomes.  Dishing up all the player races at once is equivalent to dumping sloppy cheese pasta in polystyrene foam take-away containers for customers!

    Consider the exotic races should be a surprise to see and unique to common cities where gnomes, halflings, humans, exist.

    • 251 posts
    September 3, 2017 12:50 PM PDT

    I like everything you have said here rencil. I think they have already locked in this aspect of the game, however, the people at VR will always want to know what you think. And what motivates you. There are no bad ideas. Don't let anyone discourage you. Write everything that pops into your brain even if it seems meaningless.

    Thanks for posting your ideas.

    Everyone knows I am all about the Gnome... and their version is jarring to people like me.  But the story is compelling.  There is a bit of a hole in it though.  When they finally discover Resivore, that should be the first instance where society is divided along lines of overwhelming force in countless generations.  So the story should technically have developed from the confused child's perspective as a starting point.  Before that time, Gnome society would have been very stable, and sort of "One Gnome" type of thing.  And then as a small minority suddenly attained power far greater than the rest of society, that could be related to a single toddler in a group walking while the others crawl.  The more I think about it the less I think there is a logical path without this period of innocence in it.  I don't imagine if a pygmy in the Congo were to suddenly discover electricity, the first inclination would be applications of force.  They would probably dance for a few generations, just to make sure the spirits were pleased with the knowledge they had uncovered.  I don't imagine any well established and stable society having any other direct response.  Although their version of Gnome would probably get their "Learn" on rather than that groove.  The same rules would apply.

     

    Mod Edit: Removed backseat moderating portion of the post, please refer to the guidelines.


    This post was edited by ZennExile at September 4, 2017 4:31 PM PDT
    • 1002 posts
    September 4, 2017 3:52 PM PDT

    rencil said:

    Durp said:Solution is simple. As with any other feature of Pantheon such as crafting, harvesting, progeny etc. etc., if you don't like it, dont use it. If you dont like the gnome don't play it, choose something else.

    I don't think VR wants to hear that.  Any game company wants the broadest appeal possible, with epic flare.

    I think this is somewhere in between what you and Fancy are laying out.

    Of course VR wants as many people to play as possable  "broadest appeal possable" any business would.

    On the other hand they are not willing to compromise their vision, their desire for this game to be a cut above, just to have 1 million subscribers over 500 subscribers. So they have confirmed this will not be a game for everyone. NOT the "broadest appeal possable"

    I would venture to say they want the broadest appeal possable within their target audience.

     

    Keep in mind "broadest appeal possable" would have to include FTP.

    • 413 posts
    September 4, 2017 8:35 PM PDT

    I doubt very much that just because you don't like how gnomes turned out or because there are no (fill in the blank feature) they are not targeting the widest audience within the target audience.  

     

    I.e. you will play if the gameplay is compelling regardless of some misconception as to how of what something is, should be, or could have been. 

    if the game sucks, no one will play.  If it is designed and works as outlined, this niche of forgotten MMO'rs and a bunch of new players who've never seen a true MMO, (i.e. The target audience) will have a fantastic time. Play a human :)

    @ZennExile : Not particularly trying to stifle ideas but coming up with those requests/"ideas" at this stage of the game especially when there are so few classes and races revealed, I doubt very much (like 0.0001% chance) gnomes will change very much from their current iteration.

    fyi, I am not opposed to finding other, unannounced races etc ala eq1 iksar, vah'shir etc etc. at some point in the game. Just not those that have already been announced/revealed. 

    • 2013 posts
    September 11, 2017 10:49 AM PDT
    Nope. Like the current look/lore of everything and wouldnt want them to change it. I wanted a Gnome Bard. But the lore doesnt allow it. But Im okay with that. If anything were to change I would want things to be even more alien and non-traditional.
    • 3172 posts
    September 12, 2017 6:14 AM PDT

    I would hope that VR would stick to the plan and roll out the races that have been mentioned.  With all due respect to the OP, this game has been in development for several years and there are plenty of people who have already committed to one race or another.  Check out the monthly newsletters where they ask a member from the community which race they plan on playing.  That said, I like some of the ideas in this thread as it pertains to unlocking races in the future.  This usually happens in an expansion ... what I would love to see is "bonus content" that nobody is prepared for.  A "secret race" in the game that literally has to be discovered.  It seems highly unlikely that something like this will happen but from my own perspective I think it would add some serious flair to the game.  We've all been craving information and VR has done a great job keeping a tight lid on most things.   I really hope Progeny opens up possibilities for new race/class combinations ... this has never been confirmed and would entail quite a bit of work in terms of rendering extra graphics, but little details like this can go a long way.

    • 2445 posts
    September 12, 2017 9:42 AM PDT

    fancy said:

    It's really disheartening seeing people come in and ask for such huge and drastic changes like it's nothing. 

     

    This right here.

     

    It would be a huge turn of to me if I had to make a throw-away character (or worse, one I have to spend a lot of time on) to travel around and find the race I want to make in order to start the character I really want, and for what reason? There is none. There is no reason I would have to "discover" a race on one character in order to make an entirely seperate and unrelated entity in the games universe. There are plenty of other rewards to be had with exploration and questing that don't affect core player decisions and identity. 

    OP you keep saying things like "and also reducing the confusion of diverse races." or "The point is having so many diverse races is too confronting for most players." I really don't understand what you are saying here. There are 9 launch races planned which isn't exactly some kind of burden of choice. WoW launched with 8 races and people didn't complain that it was too hard to pick a race, if anything they wanted more in the game. You keep mentioning EverQuest yet that game launched with a whole 12 races, 13 with the first expansion. I never saw anyone complain that there were too many races there either, and having so many different player races made the world feel all the more alive and varied. Let everyone make the character they want when they first get into the game and there will be more happy customers than being told they have to unlock some races like this is some kind of roguelike platformer. 

    rencil said:

    Example when EQ1 changed the player model containers, many players left the game.  Your current line up of races is too obscure to make it comfortable.  You could turn off customers.

    No, many people left the game with Luclin because the game itself changed pretty dramatically and it was no longer the same old EQ. The models, I would argue, played very very little role in a majority of players leaving. You still had the option to pick and choose for every race to have them displayed as the original models even. 

    • 2445 posts
    September 12, 2017 5:00 PM PDT

    I guess having and voicing differing opinions and ideas is aruging, trolling, or otherwise being unconstructive. 

    • 251 posts
    September 14, 2017 6:34 PM PDT

    Amsai said: Nope. Like the current look/lore of everything and wouldnt want them to change it. I wanted a Gnome Bard. But the lore doesnt allow it. But Im okay with that. If anything were to change I would want things to be even more alien and non-traditional.

    Why wouldn't the lore allow for a Gnome Bard again?  Gnome can't play instruments, get drunk, and beg for handouts and more beer money?  Say it ain't so...