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The TARDIS effect

    • 801 posts
    August 5, 2017 10:08 AM PDT

    I've come across this design flaw in quite a few games, EQ1/EQ2 included where you have a zone that has within in a structure which itself has another zone inside of that.  Think Kurns Tower in Field of Bones, Tower of Frozen Shadow in Eastern Wastes, City of Mist in Emerald Jungle, Ssra Temple in The Grey and Karnor's Castle in The Dreadlands.  In each case you have a structure around which a player can walk that has clearly defined dimensions X paces wide in this direction and Y paces wide in that direction.  Yet when you enter that structure and go into the zone, what you have on the inside is far larger than what the outside structure could encompass.

    When a zone is in the design phase where decisions about what should be present in a zone and this type of situation arises, clearly designing some structure of whatever size/shape the designer wants irrespective of any proposed zone size inside it appears to be the default approach.  Should not the size of the inside zone dictate the exterior facade?

    • 2585 posts
    August 5, 2017 3:15 PM PDT

    A good observation. I think VR has handled this well, based on what we've seen of the Tower of the Reckless Magician in the last stream.

    • 459 posts
    August 5, 2017 9:45 PM PDT

    How did you come to that conclusion Baz? In the ev first of the streams we saw the ToRM from off in the distance, hardly close enought to compare size with seeing the inside. Then when inside we could sort of see out, however I still cant grasp how this was an instanced zone that you could see out of and could you see into the actual surrounding zone. Maybe asking this will help clear that up.

    I do remember in EQ you could "see out" of City of Mist, one of the offending zones within a zone that Vandraad was refering too, so thats reall nothing new, as you weren't actually seeing out of the zone.

    As for the Tardis concept itself, I'm not so sure making it 1 to 1 in the game would be the right path. I understand thei mmersion factor and I'm somewhat of an immersion junkie, but in this situation it seems it could be quite the waste of space.

    In Vandraads examples CoM an Karners weren't so bad, but both the Towers, Kurns and ToFS were indeed too small, I agree there they went too far with it.


    This post was edited by Zorkon at August 5, 2017 10:04 PM PDT
    • 140 posts
    August 6, 2017 10:20 AM PDT

    I would say it depends.  Caves can be larger if they go undergound, and wizard towers or other multi-planar or non-Euclidian geometric areas make sense for the inside dimensions to not match the outside dimensions.

    ...but, fot the most part, I agree that it helps imersion when things are at least somewhat close to accurate, size wise.  Of course, just rendering the inside of the structure as part of the same zone can fix a lot of that problem.

    • 2585 posts
    August 7, 2017 5:56 AM PDT

    Zorkon said:

    How did you come to that conclusion Baz? In the ev first of the streams we saw the ToRM from off in the distance, hardly close enought to compare size with seeing the inside. Then when inside we could sort of see out, however I still cant grasp how this was an instanced zone that you could see out of and could you see into the actual surrounding zone. Maybe asking this will help clear that up.

    I do remember in EQ you could "see out" of City of Mist, one of the offending zones within a zone that Vandraad was refering too, so thats reall nothing new, as you weren't actually seeing out of the zone.

    As for the Tardis concept itself, I'm not so sure making it 1 to 1 in the game would be the right path. I understand thei mmersion factor and I'm somewhat of an immersion junkie, but in this situation it seems it could be quite the waste of space.

    In Vandraads examples CoM an Karners weren't so bad, but both the Towers, Kurns and ToFS were indeed too small, I agree there they went too far with it.

    Well based on what Kilsin said here, ToRM is its own zone:

    "The tower is a zone, you are not meant to leave the tower or walk/run around on the ground below, the zone/tower is meant to be in the sky but there is more to the tower than we showed in the stream. The tower is split into different sections that players will have to navigate."

    (Source: https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6341/south-saol-peninsula/view/page/1)

    Tbh, I'm not sure what he means by "sections," but the point is its clear that ToRM does not technically exist in SS, so the tower we see in SS is just a representation. We only saw it from a distance, so it's hard to really judge size. It's going to look smaller than it actually is. It's just my own loose opinion, but the size looked pretty reasonable to me. Although tbh, I wasn't even really thinking about whether the inside matched the outside. I can go back and take a closer look now that you've pointed it out. The important thing is that when we saw inside the Tower zone, it did not seem so different that it made me feel like I was in the TARDIS. Even though it is just cosmetic, I like being able to look out from inside the tower. I think it does give you a better sense of perspective. Either way, as you said, I don't think it has to be perfectly proportional. I doubt anyone is going to be measuring the paces of the interior and exterior. They should just make an effort for it to be close enough that you don't notice it. This is probably something that only certain people would really care about.


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at August 7, 2017 5:56 AM PDT
    • 20 posts
    November 7, 2017 4:12 PM PST

    I may be in the minority, but I fail to see where it's an issue in a world with magic, other planes, other dimensions... Why can't it be smaller on the outside?

     

    Do you really want to have half of your outdoor zone be unaccessible because that's the indoor zone? Once you decide you're doing that why not simply have it be one zone, and you simply go inside to keep adventuring (which just an FYI, that appears to be exactly what they've done in many cases)

    • 801 posts
    November 8, 2017 6:38 PM PST

    Glorfendill said:

    I may be in the minority, but I fail to see where it's an issue in a world with magic, other planes, other dimensions... Why can't it be smaller on the outside?

     

    Do you really want to have half of your outdoor zone be unaccessible because that's the indoor zone? Once you decide you're doing that why not simply have it be one zone, and you simply go inside to keep adventuring (which just an FYI, that appears to be exactly what they've done in many cases)

    For me it is just a matter of realism.  Yes, this world is filled with magic and I can easily suspend my disbelief when it comes to that, but when I come across a tower in the middle of a zone (a tower which I can walk around the outside of and measure its diameter), then go inside and find myself adventuring in an area far greater than what the tower could hold it gives me a congnitive disconnect.  The same goes for overland zones where their size/shape makes it impossible to lay out the zones in a truly connected fashion.  I know that the connections between zones could be explained away as representing the old tabletop 'fast travel' where you skip miles of walking just to move the story along.

    • 62 posts
    November 9, 2017 7:27 AM PST

    @Glorfendill

     

    I think they could find creative ways to make use of the spaces around said areas. With advances in technologies file sizes aren't an issue like they were for previous mmo's. Having a 1:1 ratio between inside and outside a structure could justify larger zones, help players appreciate the scope of structures, create little "nooks" for camps outside, make for a more seamless world, or whatever. Only one way to find out for sure, testing ;) 

    • 126 posts
    November 23, 2017 11:10 AM PST

    Well, if you watched the most recent twitch, you'll see that in the insides of a building have a blueprint set to match the outside and their explanation of all the details was so extensive, I doubt they'd let something like this slide for other parts of the game.