I assume that most people here are looking for a particular style of MMORPG, and we've been drawn to this particular game because we (most of us, at least) played MMORPGs when they were actually good. Ultima Online, Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and a small selection of other games... I've noticed that most people who grew up playing the aforementioned games have been greatly displeased with the direction MMORPGs have taken since WoW (I'm not WoW-bashing--I thought it was okay until the first level cap extension) while those who didn't play games like UO or EQ have a much less restricted set of principles, if any, by which they think a game should follow.
With this in mind, in your experience--whether you're an old schooler or relatively new to the MMORPG scene--what are your ideals for the perfect game, and what makes you absolutely cringe or lose interest?
One of the things that is hugely important to me that I find most modern games are utterly lacking is a good loot system, by which I mean the loot that drops from NPCs. Whether you enjoy the PvE grind (killing NPCs--NOT WoW-style questing, to which I say BAH!) or not, item loot should be a significant part of the game. After all, much of your xp will likely (and in my humble opinion SHOULD) come from killing monsters, and it's something you will do throughout the entire game from level 1 to max level / raiding. It's probably in part due to my great distaste for non-stop questing, but I've found questing to be a largely solo activity, and the rewards tend to cheapen both crafted and dropped gear, which is extremely frustrating because at that point you're just killing mobs for XP. There's no excitement. For me, that's when it becomes a real grind--something you have to do that offers little or no reward.
Briefly I'll run through the loot systems of a few games and describe why I think they were good or not:
Ultima Online - The loot system was pretty good! You started with nothing, and you were given nothing. You went out and earned it, and each kill was relatively exciting because of the drops (random items, gold, treasure maps, gems, etc...). I'm not sure how well that particular system would translate now, but back then it was one of the things that made the game so interesting to me.
Everquest - Most NPCs had a chance to drop some neat stuff that was specific to one mob type or a group of mob types. Some of these items were uncommon, and others were quite rare. But people needed items because the game didn't just give them stuff, so getting a new piece of gear was almost always exciting! And when you were killing monsters, either solo or in a group, the thrill of possibly attaining some good loot for yourself, your friends, your alts, or for sale/trade, was something that actually kept the xp grind exciting.
Dark Age of Camelot - Before Shrouded Isles, the loot system and PvE in general was decent. It had generally the same system as EQ--certain mobs / mob groups would have a chance to drop a limited number of items. Generally these weren't anything to write home about. Then Spellcrafting was introduced, and items dropped by mobs became largely meaningless. What little fun there was in PvE was gone and it simply became an XP grind (which it already kinda was, especially being a PvP-oriented MMORPG.
World of Warcraft - While PvE (killing monsters, not the quests) in World of Warcraft wasn't terribly fun, probably in part due to the fact that most world mobs were easily killed by a single person, making PvE grouping outside of dungeons typically unnecessary, it had a pretty decent loot system. I liked that in certain level ranges any mob could drop some valuable items (blues and purples). This added a bit of excitement, much like the random treasure maps in UO.
To conclude, my ideal loot system would be one that keeps the players wondering if the next mob they kill will drop something that instantly slaps their faces with a mega-grin (fixed drops like in EQ and random world drops) and has the entire group spamming "NICE!!!". A system where the mob drops aren't cheapened or made useless by cookie-cutter quest gear templates (unless the quests are actually difficult and meaningful, like Lambent in EQ). Most games present the players with infinite quests so that people can solo to max level, but I like grouping, which typically means killing mobs, finding good camps, etc... And even solo I like to just kill mobs and actually get decent xp rather than being forced to do a bunch of running around with quests, which I absolutely hate, and the thing that really ties all this monster-slaying together into a nice, fun, exciting experience is the loot that drops. I was playing Final Fantasy XIV and having fun, but when I realized that monsters pretty much drop nothing and the only way to get xp was to do the stupid quests in the same linear fashion as everyone else, I completely lost interest. I truly hope Pantheon will reintroduce this seemingly old school experience! I sorely miss it :(
For me there are only a few real deal breakers.
Weak death penalty. If death is not really feared at all levels of the game its a deal breaker.
Catering to the solo or raid crowd. If major emphasis is given to people that want to solo or raid it's the begingin of the end and I for one don't wanna ride it out to the end. Those are both ok things, I do them myself from time to time, but they should be treated as being on the edge, not the mainstream, of what the game is trying to be.
High level players dominating low level players. And by this I mean a level 50 player camping a mob designed for a level 15 group and locking it down indefinately. This kind of thing in mass is terrible. I play on Agnarr and its great in many ways but having to deal with permacamped mobs being locked down by players 10, 15, 20 level or more higher than the intended players for that mob is stupid. That kind of stuff will happen sometimes and I get that but if the game is made in such a way as it can be done to the extreme that it is being done on Agnarr then I am going to pass.
Easy leveling. If I can take a week off of work and be half way to max level then I am out. I need a minimum of 6 month to a year of playing 3-5 hours a day everyday expectaion to hit max level. Not crazy power leveling but just regular grouping, exploring, crafting game play at the pace that I play.
Those are my big deal breakers. There ore tons of other things that by themselves are not enough to make me not play but those are the ones that by themselves mean the game is not for me. I think that they are in the same mindset that I am though and have plans to mitigate all of my concerns. I don't think any of the above mentioned things will be a problem. But if they are then thats the way it goes I guess.
Kaen said:... I truly hope Pantheon will reintroduce this seemingly old school experience! I sorely miss it :(
I would strongly suggest looking at the following to see how the Pantheon information we currently have is shaping up compared to your 'ideal' as a first strategy:
1. FAQ with many points about the game's intentions laid out:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/
2. A roundup of what has passed before - includes many videos and official discussions:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5171/all-things-pantheon-a-collection-of-videos
3. Discussion covering 'lesson learnt from other MMOs we hope can be avoided':
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6574/moments-you-don-t-want-to-relive-in-pantheon
4. Is our view of older game tainted by nostalgia:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2277/nostalgia
5. Interacting with Random strangers... Good/Bad?
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6521/does-this-enhance-your-experience
To conclude:
There are many threads which discuss singly many of the points you bring up. With a Development focused forum, it is likely better for the DEVs if our discussions are narrow and focused in any given thread - thus allowing Kilsin to categorise it so that the relevant DEV can more easily scan through it, should the whim take them!
Evoras, has run out of 'Summon Bazgrim' scrolls...
Evoras said:Kaen said:... I truly hope Pantheon will reintroduce this seemingly old school experience! I sorely miss it :(
I would strongly suggest looking at the following to see how the Pantheon information we currently have is shaping up compared to your 'ideal' as a first strategy:
1. FAQ with many points about the game's intentions laid out:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/game/faqs/
2. A roundup of what has passed before - includes many videos and official discussions:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/5171/all-things-pantheon-a-collection-of-videos
3. Discussion covering 'lesson learnt from other MMOs we hope can be avoided':
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6574/moments-you-don-t-want-to-relive-in-pantheon
4. Is our view of older game tainted by nostalgia:
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2277/nostalgia
5. Interacting with Random strangers... Good/Bad?
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6521/does-this-enhance-your-experience
To conclude:
There are many threads which discuss singly many of the points you bring up. With a Development focused forum, it is likely better for the DEVs if our discussions are narrow and focused in any given thread - thus allowing Kilsin to categorise it so that the relevant DEV can more easily scan through it, should the whim take them!Evoras, has run out of 'Summon Bazgrim' scrolls...
Sabot said:For me there are only a few real deal breakers.
Weak death penalty. If death is not really feared at all levels of the game its a deal breaker.
Catering to the solo or raid crowd. If major emphasis is given to people that want to solo or raid it's the begingin of the end and I for one don't wanna ride it out to the end. Those are both ok things, I do them myself from time to time, but they should be treated as being on the edge, not the mainstream, of what the game is trying to be.
High level players dominating low level players. And by this I mean a level 50 player camping a mob designed for a level 15 group and locking it down indefinately. This kind of thing in mass is terrible. I play on Agnarr and its great in many ways but having to deal with permacamped mobs being locked down by players 10, 15, 20 level or more higher than the intended players for that mob is stupid. That kind of stuff will happen sometimes and I get that but if the game is made in such a way as it can be done to the extreme that it is being done on Agnarr then I am going to pass.
Easy leveling. If I can take a week off of work and be half way to max level then I am out. I need a minimum of 6 month to a year of playing 3-5 hours a day everyday expectaion to hit max level. Not crazy power leveling but just regular grouping, exploring, crafting game play at the pace that I play.
Those are my big deal breakers. There ore tons of other things that by themselves are not enough to make me not play but those are the ones that by themselves mean the game is not for me. I think that they are in the same mindset that I am though and have plans to mitigate all of my concerns. I don't think any of the above mentioned things will be a problem. But if they are then thats the way it goes I guess.
Kaen said:
As far as death penalty, I don't think it should be quite as severe as EQ was, whereby one or two deaths at a higher level negates hours of work, but having to recover your corpse sure made for some interesting times!
I think, as far as leveling, grouping should be the main focus. Soloing should mostly be left to twinks and classes that can solo more difficult mobs. After a certain level (18 or so) I would hope it would become considerably more difficult for most classes to solo unless they're well geared, barring, of course, classes than can root rot, kite, or have pets that can tank while they dps (or whatever). End game stuff though, I'm good with raiding. One thing I didn't like in EQ was how a couple guilds could pretty much lock down the raid scene.
Regarding high level players, I completely understand your frustration. It's inconvenient and annoying, but it's just one of those things where taking it out may cause more problems then leaving it in.
I'd like to see it at least be equal to EQ in terms of xp loss personally. Especially since that could mostly be avoided in later levels with xp rez.
I'd like soloing to be difficult even when twinked as well, at least still noticeably less efficient than grouping.
Game breaker for me is content being gated by players. Contested raid mobs on wacky long spawn timers so only the most hardcore truly get a shot and can lock targets down like EQ. If a raid is truly hard then that should be the barrier for who does and does not manage to down the targets and claim a prize (for PvE servers anyway, PvP servers contested raid mobs makes a lot more sense).
Not a fan of higher level players soloing/taking named camps from level appropriate groups who are likely more able to use the loot, but it isn't a game breaker. I'm sure I'd be in the minority but I wouldn't be opposed to a system where if you are X levels (10+, maybe more for higher level targets) higher than a named/rare mob then you would have a lockout timer and only be eligable to have it drop an item for your character once every few days. Encouraging you to mentor down and join a group to get the item if you really want it but leaving it open if you want to potentially take a long time between chances.
Kaen said:
With this in mind, in your experience--whether you're an old schooler or relatively new to the MMORPG scene--what are your ideals for the perfect game, and what makes you absolutely cringe or lose interest?
If anything is given to us. I hate hand holding and oh! look, you logged in, here have some free stuff. I hate that ****.
I also hate cash shops...hate hate hate...ok, hate is a strong word, but I need a stronger word than hate...I loathe cash shops.
My ideal for the perfect game is everything that Pantheon is touting itself to be...it's why I'm here! Meaningful leveling process, the need to work together, your reputation matters, a game that is not all about rushing to max level to raid etc etc
What makes me cringe and lose interest is everything that Pantheon is stearing away from and everything most modern MMO's offer. Easy leveling, no need to group, no need to worry about how you treat your fellow player etc etc
Iksar said:Kaen said:
As far as death penalty, I don't think it should be quite as severe as EQ was, whereby one or two deaths at a higher level negates hours of work, but having to recover your corpse sure made for some interesting times!
I think, as far as leveling, grouping should be the main focus. Soloing should mostly be left to twinks and classes that can solo more difficult mobs. After a certain level (18 or so) I would hope it would become considerably more difficult for most classes to solo unless they're well geared, barring, of course, classes than can root rot, kite, or have pets that can tank while they dps (or whatever). End game stuff though, I'm good with raiding. One thing I didn't like in EQ was how a couple guilds could pretty much lock down the raid scene.
Regarding high level players, I completely understand your frustration. It's inconvenient and annoying, but it's just one of those things where taking it out may cause more problems then leaving it in.
I'd like to see it at least be equal to EQ in terms of xp loss personally. Especially since that could mostly be avoided in later levels with xp rez.
I'd like soloing to be difficult even when twinked as well, at least still noticeably less efficient than grouping.
Game breaker for me is content being gated by players. Contested raid mobs on wacky long spawn timers so only the most hardcore truly get a shot and can lock targets down like EQ. If a raid is truly hard then that should be the barrier for who does and does not manage to down the targets and claim a prize (for PvE servers anyway, PvP servers contested raid mobs makes a lot more sense).
Not a fan of higher level players soloing/taking named camps from level appropriate groups who are likely more able to use the loot, but it isn't a game breaker. I'm sure I'd be in the minority but I wouldn't be opposed to a system where if you are X levels (10+, maybe more for higher level targets) higher than a named/rare mob then you would have a lockout timer and only be eligable to have it drop an item for your character once every few days. Encouraging you to mentor down and join a group to get the item if you really want it but leaving it open if you want to potentially take a long time between chances.
Kipling said:My ideal for the perfect game is everything that Pantheon is touting itself to be...it's why I'm here! Meaningful leveling process, the need to work together, your reputation matters, a game that is not all about rushing to max level to raid etc etc
What makes me cringe and lose interest is everything that Pantheon is stearing away from and everything most modern MMO's offer. Easy leveling, no need to group, no need to worry about how you treat your fellow player etc etc
Im easy to please so the only thing I look forward to is a good group and raid challenge. If I can break content too fast I loose interest quickly.
The only thing that makes me not play an MMO and the reason most have not interested me of late is open world PvP. I play MMOs to work with people not to fight against people. I have never engaged in PvP in my life and dont plan on starting now.
Ideal, everything the Devs, the Tenants, and the write ups Brad has done has given me a LOT of faith in this team. If they build the game they want then I'm good.
They got this!
Now how they could lose me...
FTP= and I'm out, no discussion, no "if ands or buts" no "if done right"... just gone! I don't even want to talk about it, we're through... I want a divorce!
Aside from that I can live with high levels camping a low level camp, power levelers, good loot, bad loot, slow loot fast loot... whatever, its all the same. Just DON'T trivialize the Charrictor I have built.
As a Wizard in EQ they brought in POP making my ports worthless.
As a hunter in WOW that found the fun in camping and collecting the BEST AC pets and the fastest Attack Speed pets avalable and then they "normalized" them (they were now all the same.. all I had was skins). I spent weeks camping some of those... only to have them mean nothing. I get a sour taste in my mouth even logging into that game anymore.
I don't have to be first, I don't have to be the highest dps, I don't have to get there fast, I will stand in line and wait my turn, but once I get it don't trivialize it becouse somebody doesent think it's fair that they have to wait their turn. They would lose me right then and there.
I'm talking specifacly about the rare spawn Cat Broken Tooth.. fastest attack speed of any pet in the game... I researched it found him, camped him, had to fight a BOT for him that was in the area for weeks (that blizzard never did anything about, still ok with that it actually added to the challange) while the only contact I had with my friends was chat only to FINALLY get him and tame him. And 2 weeks later Bliz did the normalize the hunter pets patch (his attack speed meant nothing)
Haven't played a hunter since.
I've had a lot more time now to read a bunch of threads and such, and I must say that it seems like VR is promising everything I've been waiting for for over a decade... Needless to say, I'm beyond excited. And from what I've gathered through interacting with all of you guys, just about everyone who is active on these forums / involved with this project is on the same page, with minor differences of opinion here and there... It's truly a breath of fresh air. You guys rock.
Iksar said:Kaen said:
As far as death penalty, I don't think it should be quite as severe as EQ was, whereby one or two deaths at a higher level negates hours of work, but having to recover your corpse sure made for some interesting times!
I think, as far as leveling, grouping should be the main focus. Soloing should mostly be left to twinks and classes that can solo more difficult mobs. After a certain level (18 or so) I would hope it would become considerably more difficult for most classes to solo unless they're well geared, barring, of course, classes than can root rot, kite, or have pets that can tank while they dps (or whatever). End game stuff though, I'm good with raiding. One thing I didn't like in EQ was how a couple guilds could pretty much lock down the raid scene.
Regarding high level players, I completely understand your frustration. It's inconvenient and annoying, but it's just one of those things where taking it out may cause more problems then leaving it in.
I'd like to see it at least be equal to EQ in terms of xp loss personally. Especially since that could mostly be avoided in later levels with xp rez.
I'd like soloing to be difficult even when twinked as well, at least still noticeably less efficient than grouping.
Game breaker for me is content being gated by players. Contested raid mobs on wacky long spawn timers so only the most hardcore truly get a shot and can lock targets down like EQ. If a raid is truly hard then that should be the barrier for who does and does not manage to down the targets and claim a prize (for PvE servers anyway, PvP servers contested raid mobs makes a lot more sense).
Not a fan of higher level players soloing/taking named camps from level appropriate groups who are likely more able to use the loot, but it isn't a game breaker. I'm sure I'd be in the minority but I wouldn't be opposed to a system where if you are X levels (10+, maybe more for higher level targets) higher than a named/rare mob then you would have a lockout timer and only be eligable to have it drop an item for your character once every few days. Encouraging you to mentor down and join a group to get the item if you really want it but leaving it open if you want to potentially take a long time between chances.
I like the concept you are presenting with lockout timers if you exceed X amount of levels above a mob. This would be superior to having an outright TLC.
Leaving options open for procuring items, but still encouraging a more beneficial to the community method. Also encouraging using the mentoring system, which seems useful for community building aspects.
Anyways I like where your head is at. Good stuff.
As far as ideals go:
Subscription service - pay-to-play is where I come from. If it's good I'll keep paying.
Grouping (cooperative play) necessary - Cooperative play is sorely missing from D&D online games these days.
Class differentiation - unique characters and unique character progression. A good mix to enhance gameplay, make one think on their toes, and adapt to changing circumstances.
Attributes (stats) have a prupose - if it can be modified then it has to have an effect at some aspects of the game - maybe not always, but at least some of the time. Even if there are unpublished effects that attributes can have.
Longevity of the game - If the game is to last more than a couple of years then there needs to be a balance to the population. Newer people joining as experienced people leave. People in all level ranges for which created content serves a purpose.
Ironically,it are often the ideals that become the game breakers.
Cause what is perceived as *perfect* by many ,often is not actually for the best
I really hope Pantheon will be most satisfying for everyone
So don't burn me at the stake for saying this
if for example you can't accept that Pantheon can only try to recapture the magic of EQ,and can't be Everquest.You set yourself up for disappointment.
I think 90 procent of VR's vision is suitable to recapture the magic.Realize that a simple remake and adoption of EQ's features,might not be enough to recapture that magic at the present moment.
Because I support the vision,a dealbreaker would be a total change in vision and plans that they have set out.
I've learned a lot about my own tastes as I grew into this community. A dealbreaker for me before was the death penalty, but now I am in favor for it. And one thing I was excited about was Everquest Next and the idea they were bringing forward to have 'ZERO' levels (everyone being the same level). And the more I thought of that the more difficult it was to imagine how that could work. Pantheon's mentoring system answered that for me, and I prefer Pantheons aproach.
In a larger spectrum, when I'm looking at MMORPG's. A game that would make me just turn around and walk away before playing it would be
+extremely sexualized female character models.
+Games with an auto-play feature
+Anything by NCSOFT (they just don't care about the games after they launch.)
+Games with a focus on heterosexual storylines.
And my ideals are
+Games with true action combat (Tera, Neverwinter)
+Games with a focus on group play
+Difficult and engaging combat
+Flexible character customization
Thats all I can think of for now.
-Todd
Sabot said:Easy leveling. If I can take a week off of work and be half way to max level then I am out. I need a minimum of 6 month to a year of playing 3-5 hours a day everyday expectaion to hit max level. Not crazy power leveling but just regular grouping, exploring, crafting game play at the pace that I play.
So for me... this is probably one of the biggest. I play each night for 3-5 hours myself. I would love to see it take the avgerage player playing ~4hours a day at least 6 months to hit max level as well. Sure some could setup a game plan and play 12 hours a day for a month straight to reach max level, but if it takes less than 30 days at 12 hours a day of grinding levels and nothing else to reach max I'd be sad as I want it to be a feat to reach max for your first time. Giving the Progeny system even more meaning in the long run as the challenge of leveling is one not to take lightly.
At this point there is almost nothing VR could do that would be a deal breaker for me. I need a new game.
That said:
Wants:
1) I want loot to be RARE. If I have more than 1-2 stat gear pieces before lvl 30-40 i'll be disappointed. We should be in crap armor with "Fine Steel" (EQers will know) weapons until 20-30. And we should be happy to have that at the most.
2) Real ranged combat options. If I can't use a bow as my primary weapon and be viable from lvl 1-Max and beyond I am gonna be MAD. (i'll still play, but imma be salty AF :P)
3) Make the Progeny system good and use it for horizontal progression instead of crap like AA's. Would be so much more of an original idea.
4) Make crafting fun without it being the most tedious boring crap ever. Standing in one spot playing some lame mini game for hours is not fun. Travelling to dungeons to find special tradeskill tables to do your smithing and such is much cooler. Doing this kind of thing should allow for easier skill up and progress vs standing in a safe town spaming buttons all day. Both could be viable, but more risk the more reward I say.
5) No tiered raids. None. Keep raid content few and far between.
6) Items should not be replaced often. Gear should last a long time. If I am replacing a piece of stat gear more than once from lvl 1-max then its too often.
7) Make dungeons FEEL like they should. I want to have the same feeling I had back in EQ or DAoC. I should be paranoid AF when i'm deep in a dungeon fighting. It should be dangerous and creepy. It should be cramped and huge. I should get lost more often than not down there. Traps, Traps, Traps. And make traps meaningful. Not just, "Oh, I hit a trap. Giggle." If you hit a trap it should kill people. Like, most people. You should be actively looking for traps almost constantly. And they should be a bit random. To keep things lively.
kellindil said:1) I want loot to be RARE. If I have more than 1-2 stat gear pieces before lvl 30-40 i'll be disappointed. We should be in crap armor with "Fine Steel" (EQers will know) weapons until 20-30. And we should be happy to have that at the most... If I am replacing a piece of stat gear more than once from lvl 1-max then its too often.
This would be a bit extreme, no? Even in EQ you could find armors with stats as early as Crushbone or Blackburrow, small gains but gains nonetheless. The real thing was that stats in general weren't as important (not very important at all) in early-mid levels as they were at high level, due to the way they scaled. Even at high levels they tended to not make anywhere near the difference they do in games of today.
Iksar said:kellindil said:1) I want loot to be RARE. If I have more than 1-2 stat gear pieces before lvl 30-40 i'll be disappointed. We should be in crap armor with "Fine Steel" (EQers will know) weapons until 20-30. And we should be happy to have that at the most... If I am replacing a piece of stat gear more than once from lvl 1-max then its too often.
This would be a bit extreme, no? Even in EQ you could find armors with stats as early as Crushbone or Blackburrow, small gains but gains nonetheless. The real thing was that stats in general weren't as important (not very important at all) in early-mid levels as they were at high level, due to the way they scaled. Even at high levels they tended to not make anywhere near the difference they do in games of today.
I don't think it is too extreme. I really want stats items to be special and rare. Extremely rare. I wouldn't mind it if by max level people still didn't have but 2-3 stats items period.
I would like to see the game run more like an old school D&D game. Where powerful magical items were extremely rare. We could still see good items with high AC and such.
I don't really get this mentality.
If a level 30-40 has a 5 stat item and a level 50 has a 10 stat item, the relative power difference is the same as a level 30-40 having 0 and a level 50 having a 5 stat item.
This idea of not having meaningful gear progression pre-50 sounds awful to me. Getting a 1 AC upgrade every 5 levels from 1 to 40 sounds awful to me.
What is achieved with the removal of non-max-level stat progression? Just 'cuz?
In my opinion, Vanguard was a great model of leveling item progression. Hunter's Leage, CIS weapon, etc. I ran the entire HL questline two dozen times and it never got old. The level 17 armor quests in EQOA never got old to me.
I do not want to see item vending machines.
I want power to come from the character progression, not from items. Gear should be entirely secondary. I do not want to see a game where every class's power is directly determined by their gear alone.
I want to see items as rare as possible, so that they are truely memorable and that character strength is determined more by character level and Progeny stage, and what other Alt Advancement systems they use, not by gear.