Lots of time and effort to just get published on a wiki the first time someone completes it. This is why EQ stopped doing epic quests.
Not to mention that horizontal content to this extent would basically require the game to be level agnostic like ESO. That is the only way to have consistent challenge across all game zones.
What you're describing is basically ESO with epic quests.
@Fluffy
Aaaand we're back to discussing removal of levels.
This game is designed around a progression of levels. Multiple kinds of levels, depending on your definitions. It's not going to change, it's not going to go thru a scrap, reboot, reimagining or rebuild to accomodate this desire that has proven in multiple titles to be something that only a fraction of MMO players want. This discussion is about Pantheon and locking mechanisms on content. Derailing the discussion into yet another ramble about something that simply isn't going to happen is pointless and frustrating.
DragonFist said:Unfortunately, no it doesn't smell sweet at all. It smells like a waste processing station. And it isn't a rose, even if you're told it is. A area gated by keys designed determine ability to survive IS NOT a thinly veiled level gate. It is gated by the person's ability to do the quests, kill the mobs, etc., etc. and simply isn't a level gate. It isn't hard to see the difference.
An area blocked behind a skill being at a certain level has a minimum level in which a player can be to level the skill to that point. An area blocked behind taking a certain amount of damage (that would likely be based on the players class) before entering has a soft level requirement. If a quest for a key requires a certain level, well that is a level requirement. A key/attunement quest that can be done at any level and only meant to be done by a person of higher level will see lowbies being run through for access; it isn't a level gate but it isn't ideal either, as there is no reason for a lowbie to be in the area other than "well I feel I should be able to be there" or to be able to pick up top tier no-drop items they otherwise shouldn't have access to.
Feyshtey said:@Fluffy
Aaaand we're back to discussing removal of levels.
This game is designed around a progression of levels. Multiple kinds of levels, depending on your definitions. It's not going to change, it's not going to go thru a scrap, reboot, reimagining or rebuild to accomodate this desire that has proven in multiple titles to be something that only a fraction of MMO players want. This discussion is about Pantheon and locking mechanisms on content. Derailing the discussion into yet another ramble about something that simply isn't going to happen is pointless and frustrating.
Kinda thought ya'll were kidding about his habit of doing this.
Yea, this madness has got to end, Fluffy.
Liav said:Lots of time and effort to just get published on a wiki the first time someone completes it. This is why EQ stopped doing epic quests.
Not to mention that horizontal content to this extent would basically require the game to be level agnostic like ESO. That is the only way to have consistent challenge across all game zones.
What you're describing is basically ESO with epic quests.
Agreed. I'd rather this NOT turn into a disappointment reminiscent of ESO.
Feyshtey, Nymryl is the one that took it there .I was talking about content restrictions and what I believe is needed so players truly engage the world.
The things that preoccupy the players usually in these games would be counterproductive if they want content meaningful
Levels contribute nothing to progressing in a *logical way* Nimryl.
To have a true adventure you cant have a fixed order ,you can't force feed it to players in a logical way ,barricaded with restrictions.
Adventure with limits would be immersion breaking,and not a real adventure at all.
You have to embrace the present moment and situation(which most likely will change from time to time in Pantheon with the zone events)
A player would no longer be a *newbie fighter* if he braved all the challenges on the road,engaged the world and worked together with friends to reach the ancient powerful dragon that sits on top of the remote tower
that is very hard to reach.Be amazed what you can accomplish together.
Overcoming all the harsh struggles on the road makes it fair if you reach and best the dragon,and you should gain recognition for that no matter how you decided to have your adventure.
A belief that meaningful character progression will always involve a player increasing in both power and prestige
An expectation that with greater risk will come greater reward
indeed Nimryl.But both those tenets do not support your cause as they would apply with a skill-based system too and with or without levels
There can't be genius without a tincture of madness.So thank you Tralyan
They say true madness is repeating the same mistakes time after time.Something MMOs have been doing for a decade.
The locking mechanisms on content have been choking the genre.Everything is wrong with being pushed to move to a new area on an adventure.
If you like the place,you should be able to hang around,work on your reputation and do whatever you feel like
A system that pushes you through the world in a *logical way* ,won't allow you to spend meaningful time in each area.
While this poor equine of a thread has the appearance of being flagellated post-mortem, it is yet possible that a powerful Necromancer might produce a veritable phoenix of a rabbit from the dim depths of the metaphorical top-hat of ideas!
Since we are at page 8+ into the 'discussion' it might be prudent to serve up some reference material long-buried beneath a mountain of posts...
Nimryl said: (for it was he who started this boulder rolling downhill....)(NOTE: paraphrasing is mine)
"Games seem to commonly use absolute and artibtrary restrictions to content,
without thought to immersion, play-style or individual skill/prowess/effort"I.e. If you need to get into Dungeon of UberBling, you must be Level 45+
In his post on Raid-Loot,
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/2177/raid-loot/view/post_id/29718
Aradude Said: (for is this not Brad's new nick-name?).... lots more detail snipped .....
We also want to avoid the perception that the 'real' game is only at the 'end game' (e.g. at or near the current level cap). When players perceive that to be the case, many choose to power level themselves or their friends. This results in bypassing low and mid level content, and power leveling is also typically repetative (and thefore often boring), but people will do it anyway if they feel they have to reach the 'end game' as quickly as possible (it's just human nature). They will even do it if they are having less fun in the process (which IMHO is just horrible -- creating a situation where players have to choose between fun and efficiency (perceived or true) is bad(TM)). So we want to make sure there is fun and plentiful content at all levels, including solo, group, and raid oriented content. Yes, we want to see raids in low and mid level zones.
.... lots more detail snipped .....
Taking particular note of "The Dream Crusher's" admonition ...
Kilsin Said: (Tone: Serious-ish, Menace: DarthVader Level, Accent: Aussie)Folks, it is perfectly fine to have a different opinion and to discuss the differences but let's not make it personal or move into arguments over those opinions, if the discussion is going nowhere, agree to disagree and move on, please, continuing these types of arguments creates other arguments, keeps others from interacting out of fear of being attacked or caught up in the mix and it is completely unnecessary as it sets a very negative tone for the whole thread/topic.
First I would re-iterate my position:
I am not in favour of 'arbitrary' locks on content (except as a temporary placeholder mechanic while development runs to more time-critical components first). Any and all content should, however, be 'gated'; whether this gate is as simple as geographic distance of travel or a more complex one such as keys, faction, 'guardian NPC', or even quested.
In my previous post :
https://www.pantheonmmo.com/content/forums/topic/6711/content-restrictions-do-they-need-to-go/view/post_id/123628
I outlined a few possible barriers to entry, covering:
(i) Atmospheric Barriers
(ii) Physical Barriers
(iii) Language Barriers
(iv) Collection Barriers (physical)
(v) Collection Barriers (magical)
However, in the spirit of playing a Necromancer Alt ....
(vi) Skill Barriers:
A. The Giant's Portcullis:
Entry to this area is through a huge gate that needs to be lifted. It requires a combined strength (adjusted for body mass/bulk) greater than TOTAL_STR to raise it and hold it up. Perhaps there is a locking mechanism in a small room/alcove within. Perhaps this room is also typically guarded. Maybe the best bet is to bring some extra Ogres ... perhaps fewer, but stronger ones? Maybe larger, more powerful, Summoner pets can lend a hand? It may even be best to send a small (geddit?), elite group of gnomes and halflings through to secure the winch room, kill the guards siulently and then raise it above knee height?
SKILL = Size, Strength stat, tactics
B. The Cliffs of Insanity:
Entry is at the top of a cliff. A very tall one indeed! It will require a high climbing skill to ascend ... perhaps even special hand and footwear (of the spiky variety). Perhaps there are a few ledges on the way up ... enough for a few people to huddle precariously while the wind and occassional harpies seek to peel them off it! Ropes would be useful ... preferably very, very long ones! Linking smaller adventurer bands together might prove useful too ... unless somebody falls.
SKILL = Climbing, Gear (ropes/crampons etc), Atmosphere (Wind Shear)
C. Tunnel of Watery Death:
Entry is via a long, mostly water-filled tunnel system. While there may be areas with pockets of air, there will also be areas where the tunnel is completely filled with water. Spells/Items of 'Water breathing' may solve some of your problems, but swimming is going to prove important too! Some few of the tunnels go deep into high pressure areas, slowing swimming to almost a crawl while draining your stamina! You may need to drag you less able swimmers, perhaps even attach weights to some to ensure they are able to descend quickly enough! The water may also prove freezing as you move further from daylight, stripping even the most hardy swimmer of much of their feeling and, hence, swimming ability! Let us hope there are no eels ....
SKILL = Swimming, Stamina, Atmosphere (Pressure, Cold), Gear (weights, ropes)
None of these six barriers I have put forwards are arbitrary 'exclusion limits'. All allow players to imagine alternatives means for overcoming the level of challenge provided. In many cases, these act as a 'gauntlet' through which players must pass by investing in tactics, time or even brute-force.
Evoras, believes the optimal barrier to entry should be your imagination
The Pie is never just about the crust, or just about the filling, it is about the combined experience. It is about the scoop of ice-cream on top, and the way the crust flakes up just right to absorb a bit of that melting cream on it's brief and inevitable journey toward olfactory oblivion. It is about how long you feed the Gnomes and how fat they get before you slaughter them. And about how their screams of terror went unanswered as their magicks faded slowly from their cold dying eyes. That you then smashed into a jelly and pan seared rapidly before drowning their gooy caramelized majesty in wild blackberry honey mead to form your filling's liquid base.
That being said, does it matter if the Gnome was killed a month ago as of Tuesday, no. What matters is how shrill the screaming, and the marble. Of course. So why split hairs over fishhooks and leg snares? As long as you get the Gnome in the cage without damaging the meat or accidentally killing them, you have got yourself a Pie to look forward to. Maybe a few more if you capture an important one and others come looking for it. Like little screaming Lottery tickets.
So do we consider the time from capture to optimal marble a barrier to Pie? Or course not. This is a portal to the perfect Pie your Pie knows it can someday be. It is the opposite of a barrier. It's like the highway. Or the sky. Or the Niiii iiiii iiiiii iii...ght. RIP my Pumpkin from another Patch. You get the idea. When it's about the Journey there are no barriers. Just by default.
Besides what could be better than looking forward to a glorious slice of homemade Pie? Nothing I can imagine. And I just typed this... #onePieOneTruth #allPiesMatter
Thanks Evoras
Haven't seen that one from Aradude I think.
The phenomenon that players skip low and mid level content and resort to powerleveling to get to endgame is more than a perception.
Only the fact that we are talking about low,mid and hight content shows that content has no equal value in these games.
Anyone who loves to play around and pass time in mid level areas would be called a slacker because he/she isn't working to get to endgame like
a *decent player*
So yes,the way MMOs have been locking mechanisms on content is cancer to the genre.
Players get a gorgeous pie but would rather have the prawns that are being served to the next table .Not appreciating the present moment nor the content that is served in their own zone
that they consider too low worthy of their time anyway.Yet game devs have worked equally hard on that content too
I'm happy that you shared the quote from Aradude ,Evoras.It is mind settling
A game where each area has difficult stages to reach ,challenges for players would be better I think.No content restrictions and very slow
In some systems, such as the classic tabletop role-playing games Traveller, Call of Cthulhu and Basic Role-Playing, and the role-playing video games Final Fantasy II, The Elder Scrolls,[1] and the SaGa[2] and Grandia[3] series progression is based on increasing individual statistics (skills, rank and other features) of the character, and is not driven by the acquisition of (general) experience points. The skills and attributes are made to grow through exercised use.*
to pass times in each of these areas.In order to reach the higher stages of each zone you'd need to be exercised. But we would no longer be talking about level restriction to zones.And each zone would be good to progress or spend meaningful time at.
Fluffy said:Thanks Evoras
Haven't seen that one from Aradude I think.
The phenomenon that players skip low and mid level content and resort to powerleveling to get to endgame is more than a perception.
Only the fact that we are talking about low,mid and hight content shows that content has no equal value in these games.
Anyone who loves to play around and pass time in mid level areas would be called a slacker because he/she isn't working to get to endgame like
a *decent player*So yes,the way MMOs have been locking mechanisms on content is cancer to the genre.
Players get a gorgeous pie but would rather have the prawns that are being served to the next table .Not appreciating the present moment nor the content that is served in their own zone
that they consider too low worthy of their time anyway.Yet game devs have worked equally hard on that content too
I'm happy that you shared the quote from Aradude ,Evoras.It is mind settlingA game where each area has difficult stages to reach ,challenges for players would be better I think.No content restrictions and very slow
*Activity-based progression
In some systems, such as the classic tabletop role-playing games Traveller, Call of Cthulhu and Basic Role-Playing, and the role-playing video games Final Fantasy II, The Elder Scrolls,[1] and the SaGa[2] and Grandia[3] series progression is based on increasing individual statistics (skills, rank and other features) of the character, and is not driven by the acquisition of (general) experience points. The skills and attributes are made to grow through exercised use.*
to pass times in each of these areas.In order to reach the higher stages of each zone you'd need to be exercised. But we would no longer be talking about level restriction to zones.And each zone would be good to progress or spend meaningful time at.
This does not apply to Pantheon. Move along.
@Evoras & ZennExile You've convinced me. :) to not play Pantheon. Enjoy the game. Didn't expect that one (trolling). Good luck.
I wouldn't make any rash decisions just yet. Let's see what VR has cooked up before jumping to any conclusions on how things will be. Gating mechanics are important for an MMO and while I agree that there are some options more tasteful than others, we have no idea what to expect at this time. Personally, I think it would be cool to have a dungeon, questline, faction ... something that is exclusive to characters who are 2-3 generations deep in their progeny line. When I say something like this, it's from the perspective of seeking achievement ... it has nothing to do with wanting to block others from content. It doesen't need to be anything major but there should definitely be content in the game that can only be unlocked by doing something incredible. Doubling down ... how about a quest line that gives access to a zone, but the questline is only accessible to characters deep in their progeny tree? It's gating on top of gating ... and I would be okay with that! Accomplishments feel sweeter when they are earned.
Fluffy said:*Activity-based progression
In some systems, such as the classic tabletop role-playing games Traveller, Call of Cthulhu and Basic Role-Playing, and the role-playing video games Final Fantasy II, The Elder Scrolls,[1] and the SaGa[2] and Grandia[3] series progression is based on increasing individual statistics (skills, rank and other features) of the character, and is not driven by the acquisition of (general) experience points. The skills and attributes are made to grow through exercised use.*
to pass times in each of these areas.In order to reach the higher stages of each zone you'd need to be exercised. But we would no longer be talking about level restriction to zones.And each zone would be good to progress or spend meaningful time at.
The best thing VR can do to avoid waisting artwork and content areas desiged for low levels, is to implement multiple levels of difficulty in the same area, so for example the same dungeon with the same artwork can have content for levels 10-20 at the entrance, 35-45 in the rest of the dungeon and a raid for level 50 that can only be accesd once you pass trough the dungeon (the raid still uses the same artwork)
If they do this they'll avoid wasting good artwork and level design on content players will only play for a few hours while leveling up.
Nimryl said:@Evoras & ZennExile You've convinced me. :) to not play Pantheon. Enjoy the game. Didn't expect that one (trolling). Good luck.
This confuses me. Was it sarcasm? I thought Evoras' post was perfectly valid and had good points and ideas - as per usual.
ZennExile, well, y'know ...that's just what he does.
Nimryl said:@Evoras & ZennExile You've convinced me. :) to not play Pantheon. Enjoy the game. Didn't expect that one (trolling). Good luck.
You shouldn't blame the Pie if you didn't follow the whole recipe. You're in luck though. I can help you understand the process from an insider's perspective. When it comes to the key to world class Pie, I'm like a highschool Janitor. What I am saying is my Keyring, is super heavy.
All you have to do is replace your assumptions, with questions. And you will be well on your way to crafting a Pie of your very own. One you can be proud of. #onePieOneTruth #iStillLuvUboo
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