I agree Liav that there always needs to be an outlet to allow players to point out parts of the game that arean't working.
I also agree with Nymril that there some aspects of game design that the dev team needs to stick to their guns on if the don't want the game to become something else.
It is matter of judgement. If dev intends a game to be challenging and not a vending machine but they made a game that depends so much on RNG that feels like a casino rather than an RPG and players complain about it, they show look at it from the view of how can we keep our ideals of no vending machines/challenging game while not also being an RNG casino either.
The page just refreshed itself and I lost my nice lengthy reply...
To keep the short of... given my experiances with all the systems I have come across, keeping items, stats, scaling, etc. consistent is key, the ability to manually lower ones self so interact with newcomers or friends alts is also key. The issues related to gear desparity, and gating of those sorts has a only a singular solution I can find, yet that very solution violates this games philosophies.
-- End-Game/Raid content would need to be locked to an attunement style system, consisting of a series of quests or quest lines. in order to obtain acess. These attuenments would grant not only access but active buffs to players simluating gear incraces based on their progression via unlock by completing the needed objectives. This system would only work if the quests themselves were available equally to all players that meet a universal requirement. On top of that these end-game areas would have to be instanced, in order to propperly apply and regulate use of such buffs. -- While I understand this suggestion violates some key points, on the intended design and omlication of systems, it would allow a consistent gear system and keep the 'end-game' or raid content as very much optional, as the quest lines of the attunements themsleves would be all that the game makes particular note of, wether or not they involve expanding on world landmarks or whatnot would be up to the writers. -- The loot themselves form these places would be primarily cosmetic, or have the item scale to whoever recieves it, this takes into account players being down-sclaed to the intended range but can still get rewards for what they can use out of the run for whatever they are doing currently
Dullahan said:Nimryl said:Entitlement is a little off-topic guys.. but I'll say this.. personally I was trying to highlight the hand-holding of "full-stop" level based restricted content.. like a PoFear's lvl46 and i-levels restrictions for dungeons. If you see my post as "entitled"; that was not my intention. I just wanted to bring it to the communities attention mainly because that kind of hand-holding isn't needed and does nothing but damages/softens it's community making them uptight about death when they do actually fail.
My main opinion on entitlement in mmos is this...
The entitlement of one person isn't really the problem. What the real problem is... the devs listening to entitlement. Don't get me wrong.. there is a clear difference between "just an idea/suggestion" and entitlement (pushed-on self orientated wants).. Trust me I've seen devs say things'll be X way then change their minds about it due to ENMASSE entitlement (pressure of the crowd via forums usually). Also enacting on ideas and suggestions is fine.. so long as the devs weight them vs the overall gamestyle of the game and it's effects. Devs need to grow a spine/some fortitude and think of the game as a whole! (because the players won't!) instead of just catering the best they can just for the sake of money/popularity/sales.
Don't give people what they want... give them what they need!Removing content restrictions is clear cut entitlement. Anyone arguing entitlement is not an issue in mmo's is being intellectually dishonest.
I'm not quite sure many people here are saying entitlement is good, as much as they're saying artificial content restriction is just not a good alternative to it.
If you don't want people entering a zone or an area at a certain level, then make the zone hard enough (and scale it, or revamp it through expansions) so that people simply can't survive without the necessary gear or attributes. Make it punishable enough that even the idea of going there before you're ready isn't even entertained. I want the conversation to go -
You can't go there yet, you'll get friggin' creamed.
Instead of -
You can't go there yet, you aren't keyed.
Not really seeing the issue with that.
Tralyan said:Dullahan said:Nimryl said:Entitlement is a little off-topic guys.. but I'll say this.. personally I was trying to highlight the hand-holding of "full-stop" level based restricted content.. like a PoFear's lvl46 and i-levels restrictions for dungeons. If you see my post as "entitled"; that was not my intention. I just wanted to bring it to the communities attention mainly because that kind of hand-holding isn't needed and does nothing but damages/softens it's community making them uptight about death when they do actually fail.
My main opinion on entitlement in mmos is this...
The entitlement of one person isn't really the problem. What the real problem is... the devs listening to entitlement. Don't get me wrong.. there is a clear difference between "just an idea/suggestion" and entitlement (pushed-on self orientated wants).. Trust me I've seen devs say things'll be X way then change their minds about it due to ENMASSE entitlement (pressure of the crowd via forums usually). Also enacting on ideas and suggestions is fine.. so long as the devs weight them vs the overall gamestyle of the game and it's effects. Devs need to grow a spine/some fortitude and think of the game as a whole! (because the players won't!) instead of just catering the best they can just for the sake of money/popularity/sales.
Don't give people what they want... give them what they need!Removing content restrictions is clear cut entitlement. Anyone arguing entitlement is not an issue in mmo's is being intellectually dishonest.
I'm not quite sure many people here are saying entitlement is good, as much as they're saying artificial content restriction is just not a good alternative to it.
If you don't want people entering a zone or an area at a certain level, then make the zone hard enough (and scale it, or revamp it through expansions) so that people simply can't survive without the necessary gear or attributes. Make it punishable enough that even the idea of going there before you're ready isn't even entertained. I want the conversation to go -
You can't go there yet, you'll get friggin' creamed.
Instead of -
You can't go there yet, you aren't keyed.
Not really seeing the issue with that.
Entitlement can be seen in a few ways. I think about those that want to uphold artificial content restrictions as some kind of design *law*
that *should* be followed because the predecessors games had it
It would be a problem if they would "listen to entitlement" in that case.
By now I thought we would have seen the pattern ,each of these game turning into a dumbed down copy of another game
Where content no longer matters and where its all about the dps ,endgame etc.
If this is what people want ,I agree that they shouldn't give them what they want (but what they need and don't know they need)
I feel like a lot of people missed the point.
Entitlement is a buzzword. It has a literal definition, then a very ambiguous definition where it is simply stated in place of a more articulate argument.
Restricting zones based purely on levels or not is completely unimportant to me. Saying that people are entitled when they ask for an alternative is laughable. Saying that the devs know what's best for a given player is laughable.
Entitlement is far from a buzzword or an ambiguous concept in the least. It's a prevalent philosophy which has washed over into the video game realm. It simply says I cannot have X because of Y, therefore Y should be changed or removed so that people like me can have X. That may mean access to content that requires a level, items, keys or coordinating with other people.
These requests are usually coupled with weak logic like "I paid the same price, so I should be entitled to the same opportunity to play ALL of the game."
I agree that everything should not be hard gated, but some things should be. When a game lives or dies by content progression like an MMORPG, allowing people to circumvent roadblocks will only harm the game's longevity.
Liav said:Saying that the devs know what's best for a given player is laughable.
In the case of some devs, probably. But in the case of Patheon I disagree wholeheartedly. The players dont know whats good for us and i hope the devs never forget it. This is THEIR game and that is what we want to play. At least what I want to play.
The simplest example of players not knowing whats good for them, open these fourms up to the world (no sub nessasary to post) and within a month "the players" will overwhelming want this to be a FTP game with fast travel everywhere.(welcome to everquest landmark forums)
No thank you, the Devs know whats best for their game, and lets just hope they stick by their guns, i dont expect it will be easy for them.
You can only entrust your fate to the rails when the station has been long departed
The vision is brought to life as we speak.A vision we clearly support
The most difficult part of it all is determining which systems would support that vision of an embracing community and a game where content really matter.
I think the pattern we've witnessed in previous games can help us see which systems would drift away from that vision.
Hope devs know it best,they get to pick the design choices to support the vision
Listening to players ,I often think it is like accepting a drunk for relationship counseling.
Less restrictions does not mean less challenge.Infact more challenge as things like corpse retrieval can be really difficult if it happens in a harsh zone.
I think this game can't afford to wall things off if it is destined to be a game where we embrace community and immersive content
It would be counterproductive in the attempt to realize the vision I believe.Does not mean that you shouldn't train certain skills in order to reach certain parts of the world.Like a strange kangaroo-like beast could help you to get on a ledge you would otherwise never be able to climb
Zorkon said:In the case of some devs, probably. But in the case of Patheon I disagree wholeheartedly. The players dont know whats good for us and i hope the devs never forget it. This is THEIR game and that is what we want to play. At least what I want to play.
The simplest example of players not knowing whats good for them, open these fourms up to the world (no sub nessasary to post) and within a month "the players" will overwhelming want this to be a FTP game with fast travel everywhere.(welcome to everquest landmark forums)
No thank you, the Devs know whats best for their game, and lets just hope they stick by their guns, i dont expect it will be easy for them.
You don't speak for anyone but yourself is the point. If they design a piece of content in a way that is completely atrocious, I will complain about it on the forums in the hope that it is improved. If that makes me entitled then the word has lost all meaning.
The EQNL forums is a weird citation to me considering EQNL and EQN were intended to be free to play from the start. Given that all Daybreak games are a part of the free to play with premium subscription model, it's a reasonable expectation.
As for fast travel, EQ gave two classes the ability to teleport you pretty much anywhere in the world. While I understand that you probably mean something like flying mounts or the ability to individually instantly teleport somewhere with a world map, meh. I miss flying mounts in Vanguard. I guess I'm entitled.
Liav said "Saying that the devs know what's best for a given player is laughable."
"A given player" for anyone to dispute this is beyond laughable as was stated. It would be a cold day in .... if anyone tried to tell me what's best for me in a MMORPG.
I go into these games knowing full well there will be things I like and things I dont like and its up to me how long I play and what eventually will cause me to leave. No one is going to tell me what's best for me in this case...
I don't think that it is a matter of "The Devs know what's best for you".
It is a matter of "The Devs know what game THEY want to make".
The question is, "Do you want to play THAT game?"
And there is no wrong answer.
Devs should listen to their player base, but they shouldn't let the player base force them into making a game that they don't want create/maintain/deliver.
And, they shouldn't make a game so far from what I want to play that I don't play it. Well, the can. I just won't play it. But if it is the game that enough people want to play, well that works out for the devs.
But you can't please everyone and you shouldn't try.
DragonFist said:I've already answered that question. I do not care what the lore or explaination is, everytime I come upon a zone-line or area that gives me a message that I cannot enter because of my level, no matter how it is worded, just says to me that the devs were to lazy to provide a path for entrance or too afraid of complaints from newbs getting their blood splattered against the walls. It is lazy design and it is easy to see and it is frustrating because the number of pixels in an XP bar is the the only real reason that you can't enter.
You want it be that you don't have the will to enter, then set up a quest to gain that will, and after jumping through the hoops (that will need someone of an appropriate level to complete) one can enter. The result then is a sense of accomplishment. The result of the level lock is resentment that one has to wait until they reach an appropriate level. Both gate off the zone. They have completely different effects on the player.
It is unreal and a clear sign of either lazy design.
I kinda like the get hit by an AE upon entering idea. Once one succeeds in surviving it, one gets a flag (key). And they can freely enter after that. But again, it isn't a string of text or a hard level limit that doesn't actually determine one's ability to survive.
How is it clearly lazy design to have areas that players can't access due to level? Even if you can't reach a dungeon because your climbing skill has to be 250 to get there or you have to survive X damage to get it, it is still a thinly veiled level requirement. What real benefit is there in letting lowbies venture into the most dangerous/high level areas in the game? What will end up happening to these top-end raid/dungeons, regardless of some long and hard attunement/keying quest, is people selling looting rights to top tier no-drop items or decking alts out for guild members/friends.
Iksar said:DragonFist said:I've already answered that question. I do not care what the lore or explaination is, everytime I come upon a zone-line or area that gives me a message that I cannot enter because of my level, no matter how it is worded, just says to me that the devs were to lazy to provide a path for entrance or too afraid of complaints from newbs getting their blood splattered against the walls. It is lazy design and it is easy to see and it is frustrating because the number of pixels in an XP bar is the the only real reason that you can't enter.
You want it be that you don't have the will to enter, then set up a quest to gain that will, and after jumping through the hoops (that will need someone of an appropriate level to complete) one can enter. The result then is a sense of accomplishment. The result of the level lock is resentment that one has to wait until they reach an appropriate level. Both gate off the zone. They have completely different effects on the player.
It is unreal and a clear sign of either lazy design.
I kinda like the get hit by an AE upon entering idea. Once one succeeds in surviving it, one gets a flag (key). And they can freely enter after that. But again, it isn't a string of text or a hard level limit that doesn't actually determine one's ability to survive.
How is it clearly lazy design to have areas that players can't access due to level? Even if you can't reach a dungeon because your climbing skill has to be 250 to get there or you have to survive X damage to get it, it is still a thinly veiled level requirement. What real benefit is there in letting lowbies venture into the most dangerous/high level areas in the game? What will end up happening to these top-end raid/dungeons, regardless of some long and hard attunement/keying quest, is people selling looting rights to top tier no-drop items or decking alts out for guild members/friends.
They answer to your question is in the post you quoted.
What real benefit is there in letting lowbies venture into the most dangerous/high level areas in the game? What will end up happening to these top-end raid/dungeons, regardless of some long and hard attunement/keying quest, is people selling looting rights to top tier no-drop items or decking alts out for guild members/friends.
DragonFist said:They answer to your question is in the post you quoted.
Don't see the answer to that.
Iksar said:What real benefit is there in letting lowbies venture into the most dangerous/high level areas in the game? What will end up happening to these top-end raid/dungeons, regardless of some long and hard attunement/keying quest, is people selling looting rights to top tier no-drop items or decking alts out for guild members/friends.
DragonFist said:The answer to your question is in the post you quoted.
Don't see the answer to that. That post is pretty much completely the anwer to that question. Don't know what to do about that.
I'm sorry if you don't see it. I've stated it many, many times and that post is just one post that is expounding upon that very point. I don't know what to do about you not seeing that.
@DragonFist and @Iksar The answer is there... if you read into the next paragraph where DragonFist talks about having a quest or something.
I agree with this for the most part. Lazy design is about putting something in the game that has no lore/story bearing and has more of a "I don't want you to do this... what's the easiest/fastest way to prevent you from doing it?" Being told you can't do something for your own good is lazy design and engenders far more animosity than having people walk in a clearly higher level area and get wacked.
Oh, well then this comment still applies: "Even if you can't reach a dungeon because your climbing skill has to be 250 to get there or you have to survive X damage to get it, it is still a thinly veiled level requirement."
I think that's a pretty poor argument against level-gated content as it's still a level-gated zone but with an extra hoop attached. "I don't like being told I can't enter this zone because I am not level 45 regardless of the lore or any other explaination...I want to be told I can't enter this zone because I haven't completed the key quest that requires me being level 45."
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
I don't think having a climbing skill to get somewhere is a veiled level requirement Iksar.Well they could make them veiled level requirements but ofcourse it would be best to avoid that and keeping the focus on the tenet engaging the world for content.
Just like how certain spells may work better or worse (or even only work) depending on the climate or atmosphere,climbing might be easier in an area where it hasn't frozen and where it isn't slippery.
One day it might be easier to navigate an area,the next day you have to shelter from sandstorms in that area.yet some things are revealed only during the sandstorm that reward you for taking risk
and venturing out in the sandstorm to find them.
So it pushes you out the door to explore.As your character adapts like a nomad in the desert by spending a lot of time there,the character might become more adapt and creative with shelters.
Able to discover a cactus juice that helps them out there.But in the long run drinking it will cause physical alterations.(resistance and weaknesses)
Thus allowing the character to navigate the area better in a sandstorm.The character might gain a heat resistance and learn things about survival and food other characters wouldn't learn about that type of area
A character that trains most of the time in complete darkness might gain keen senses in the long run.Altering the perception of the character
It no longer is about meaningless levels,but about the evolution of your character engaging the world in order to progress.
An identity and character is created based on the way you live and engage the world ,absorbing knowledge based on what you encounters and the things you brave
It has a lot more dept to it than levels
The only limits would be your biological ability to attune to these areas.(so you can't shape your character as nomad and eskimo at the same time in the end)
Unfortunately, no it doesn't smell sweet at all. It smells like a waste processing station. And it isn't a rose, even if you're told it is. A area gated by keys designed determine ability to survive IS NOT a thinly veiled level gate. It is gated by the person's ability to do the quests, kill the mobs, etc., etc. and simply isn't a level gate. It isn't hard to see the difference.
I like my content like I like my variety of Pie fillings. No limits.
I would just skill bind all the gear so until you ding 220 fishing that Rod of Endless Lures, is just tangled mess of fish you almost caught once. I would make people who equip low levels with high level gear pay a double penatly so the game is actually harder for them using the over-powered gear, than say just using placeholder drops or journyman crafted things. Then they could feel superior both in gear and skill level while they win the new player tutorial on extra-hard mode.
If you got the Pie, right on show it. But if you can't handle that Pie, you gonna choke.
#throughPieAllThings #onePieOneTruth
the idea that you have to learn about your item on the go- or skill based items(like you have to infuse the item at the heart of the vulcano,absorb some essence of a violent tornado
Temper it with a drop of gnome tears,master a certain specialization) supports the idea that you would have no content restrictions, that you have to travel all of the world and that each of those areas are equally important,unlike in most MMOs.
This actually pushes players out the door ,encourages you to examine things in the areas on your journey in order to find clues about how to progress the item + encourages you to train yourself in order to wield it
For example;some items might be useable by a visionair that has specialized training in darkness areas and ,because of that,has the night vision + keen senses that allows that character to use the visionair's lantern to its ful potential
Rather than a focus on level area barriers,the player has to pay attention on the journey and engage the world in order to progress.Truly embracing the adventure,which I believe level areas would never be able to achieve.
It is in the details,the systems introduced will have a huge impact on where players put their focus;the journey or the preoccupation with level range and endgame areas.
With skill based items ,content is not made obsolete.With level areas only endgame will matter ,as any lower area would have nothing worth to take a risk for for the players.As they would have *endgame* equipment already
With no level areas ,a horizontal approach :skill based items that require you to travel the world in order to unlock,
braving the challenges are always worth the risk to discover new things and new ways to alter your equipment and character,gaining new options.And thus no areas becomes obsolete.And the world maintains a very open ended immersive feel to it.At the same time,it remains easier to add new content ,stories and events to the existing areas later down the line without all the level gap issues and without need for downleveling
So not only would a game without content restrictions introduce more challenge with harder corpse retrieval etc,
it would also put the focus on the right things to keep the vision intact with a focus on a challenging adventure that puts the significance on cetain sights in the world in order to grow/progress.reaching them is often part of the challenge with all the ongoing natural hazards in Terminus