Forums » General Pantheon Discussion

Claustrophobic and Trecherous Dungeons

    • 78 posts
    July 23, 2017 8:51 AM PDT

     

    I wish we could delve into a really claustrophobic dungeons, I really miss that about EQ and I think the reason why we don't see those anymore (like Lower and Upper Guk / SOLA and SOLB...etc) is because of the 3rd person view camera. But I think VR mentined that they are working to support both preferences so I wonder if they can make really narrow dungeons where your head almost touches the ceiling (maybe certain races need to shrink/crouch on some part of the dungeon) and corridors are really really narrow which would make 3rd person view a little tricky to manage... hence why we don't see those kind of dungeon designs anymore. I wish VR could just be bold enough and make a few of their dungeons like that. I'm tired of 20x20 meter long doors and gigantic hallways, everything is huge and widespread. It looks too roomy and dungeons starts to look the same, it doesn't matter if you're inside or outside it's almost all areas are equally spacious.

     

    This is one reason why I despise 3rd person view and I always thought the argument "both are supported, choose your preference." was flawed because it's not about the view as much as the game design as a whole. But if VR, again, can somehow manage to get a few of their dungeons like that it would make my decade (seriously!).

     

    Also another request, which I assume is going to be implemented, is the really harsh traps/pitfalls inside a dungeon. Example: The well in Befallen (the name is so naughty...) we all have fallen into that well, haven't we? and boy was the journey memorable. I want to see this kind of traps/danger in a dungeon again. I want to see secret passages and hidden doors. I want them to be really really hard to find, I don't want to find them. Maybe some friend would point them out after my 66th time I run the dungeon.

     

    I want dark, gritty, and maybe morbid walls. I want a different vibe than the brown/reddish/clean ones we've seen so far. Bring back that grotesque approach you find in several of EQ's dungeon.

     

    I believe Dungeons will play a huge role on Pantheon's success, if VR do these right and make them interesting they will retain their subscribers. We spend 90% of our time running dungeons and if they are not varried nor interesting I think we'd get bored. Make them plenty, make them different, make them interesting. Please give our dungeons a lot of love!

     

     

     


    This post was edited by Laura at July 23, 2017 8:53 AM PDT
    • 3237 posts
    July 23, 2017 10:23 AM PDT

    I don't mind having to occassionally crouch inside of a dungeon or whatever but I don't want to see them be so small that I have to legitimately consider rolling a race other than ogre just to fit through a hallway or doorway.  I do agree that dungeons with small and tight corners possess an inherent danger that just isn't found in their more spacious counterparts ... but it should be mixed up.  If they all feel claustrophobic then some people will inevitably start craving a more open experience.  But yes ... I want to see horribly grotesque torture chambers like I remember from Cazic Thule (EQ2).  I really liked the vibe of the zone Ruins of Varsoon (EQ2) as well ... the golems who patrolled the hallways, and the types of bosses spread through out the zone gave it a mischevious/evil atmosphere.  Guk from EQOA was my favorite dungeon all time and that place was super claustrophobic.  Soluseks Eye (EQOA & EQ2) were also pretty dope.  The size of the EQ2 version was absolutely huge ... probably the biggest dungeon I have ever played through.  I always wished they would create a raid version of that zone like they did with Cazic Thule (Spirits of the Lost.)


    This post was edited by oneADseven at July 23, 2017 10:24 AM PDT
    • 221 posts
    July 23, 2017 11:13 AM PDT
    Thanks for sharing Laura. Well heard.
    • 35 posts
    July 23, 2017 11:50 AM PDT

    Looking at the streams I think this is pretty much confirmed, also traps playing a big role in dungeons.
    I'm excited to see we will have many different types of dungeons, thus gameplay will also vary including camera positions.

    EDIT: I looked for the particular stream I was referring to and it's this (part) https://youtu.be/5oNVecHjiJI?t=1h6m13s
    Maybe
    you wouldn't call this claustrophobic, for me it's kinda perfect sizewise when talking about classic, underground dungeons.


    This post was edited by Avalon at July 23, 2017 12:09 PM PDT
    • 2419 posts
    July 23, 2017 11:52 AM PDT

    Laura said:

     

    I wish we could delve into a really claustrophobic dungeons, I really miss that about EQ and I think the reason why we don't see those anymore (like Lower and Upper Guk / SOLA and SOLB...etc) is because of the 3rd person view camera. But I think VR mentined that they are working to support both preferences so I wonder if they can make really narrow dungeons where your head almost touches the ceiling (maybe certain races need to shrink/crouch on some part of the dungeon) and corridors are really really narrow which would make 3rd person view a little tricky to manage... hence why we don't see those kind of dungeon designs anymore. I wish VR could just be bold enough and make a few of their dungeons like that. I'm tired of 20x20 meter long doors and gigantic hallways, everything is huge and widespread. It looks too roomy and dungeons starts to look the same, it doesn't matter if you're inside or outside it's almost all areas are equally spacious.

     

    This is one reason why I despise 3rd person view and I always thought the argument "both are supported, choose your preference." was flawed because it's not about the view as much as the game design as a whole. But if VR, again, can somehow manage to get a few of their dungeons like that it would make my decade (seriously!).

     

    I do not know what it is, but 1st person view (even when 3rd is available) is the view I stick with even in outdoors.  It is a more natural view to me.  That said, having claustraphobic dungeons just for the sake of them being cramped isn't good design.  The dungeon needs to fit the needs of whatever creature created it.  If they are small then yes, there would be lots of areas that are confining.  But why would a Giant make a tiny dungeon?  Or a dragon or other massive creature?  The game should have the broad spectrum of creatures so the dungeons are varied and interesting.

    Laura said:

    Also another request, which I assume is going to be implemented, is the really harsh traps/pitfalls inside a dungeon. Example: The well in Befallen (the name is so naughty...) we all have fallen into that well, haven't we? and boy was the journey memorable. I want to see this kind of traps/danger in a dungeon again. I want to see secret passages and hidden doors. I want them to be really really hard to find, I don't want to find them. Maybe some friend would point them out after my 66th time I run the dungeon.

     

    I understand where you are coming from, but honestly once the trap is known it isn't much of a trap anymore is it.  Yes, players who hit Befallen early in the game invariably fell down the well, but within weeks that didn't happen unless people jumped down intentionally to skip all the other levels.  So long as they are static, they will be found, their locations spread across forums and their surprise will be forever lost.  If it is designed in such a way as to be unavoidable, then it isn't a trap but rather a nuissance.  'Oh, yea, here in this hall we're gonna get hit with a poison dart with a DoT effect so here's a poison buff, regen and a HoT before we walk through. Lets keep moving.'

    Laura said:

    I want dark, gritty, and maybe morbid walls. I want a different vibe than the brown/reddish/clean ones we've seen so far. Bring back that grotesque approach you find in several of EQ's dungeon.

    That what was great about Grobb and Najena.  Dwarves all hacked to pieces hanging off meat hooks, body parts strewn all over the place.  So long as the gore factor fits with the creature inhabiting the location I say bring it on, make it gross.

    • 294 posts
    July 23, 2017 3:19 PM PDT

    I love your way of thinking Laura. Dark, gritty, morbid dungeons. Awesome. 

    I would like to see areas narrow enough (and coded likewise) so that single file is a must and some strategic planning goes into just who you send first.

    Maybe a path along a wall with a steep drop (and coded) so that single file is the only way. 

    We don't want to invite players (griefers) who might try to block the passage, but hey, maybe they can be pushed out of the way (coded) in those specific places. 

    • 78 posts
    July 24, 2017 6:44 AM PDT

    Convo said: Thanks for sharing Laura. Well heard.

    Thank you Convo!

    I'm a big fan of Classical EQ dungeons. Najena, Guk, Solusek Eye, Befallen...etc. Hopefully we can have something similar on Pantheon. :)

     

    • 281 posts
    July 24, 2017 3:03 PM PDT

    Just wanted to add my +1 to this.  I want a variety and loved various aspects mentioned by the OP in regards to EQ dungeons.

    I hate, and I mean hate, the on rails feel of dungeons in modern MMOs.  It is like Starfox with fantasy characters and without the whitty banter.  Not that it can't be fun the first time (if you are with a group that lets you view the cut-scenes) but it gets old fast and they are designed to be a 20min to 30min experience and requires no real skill.  Perhaps there is some mechanic that, if not known or well communicated can result in death until you understand it, but not actual skill or strategy.  It is boring to no end.

    But old school EQ dungeons where each unique and dangerous and fostered hanging out in them for many, many levels at a time without needing a "Daily" to force you to do so.

    • 626 posts
    July 25, 2017 7:26 AM PDT

    This post gets me excited about seeing what we can find in Pantheon :).

    • 542 posts
    July 25, 2017 8:46 AM PDT

    I love it .Adds to the sense of possible danger around every corner.If they try to rush these claustrophobic dungeons,snap and their heads turn into brainsoups <3

    • 422 posts
    July 25, 2017 10:51 AM PDT

    Very much agree with this. Spot on.

    • 125 posts
    July 25, 2017 7:39 PM PDT

    I also love this idea of traps but its too bad that within a week or so of being discovered everyone will know and the surprise/excitement will be gone.

    What I am looking forward to, and although not a trap so-to-speak, was the concept brought up in an early stream. That of at random times and in random locations within an area there may be a random high level unknown entity lurking the corridors which will wreak havoc. This could also be a named with guards which would accomplish the same thing. Just imagine being engaged in a normal mob fight when you hear a rumbling and a few seconds later this beast comes crashing through a wall or out of the floor and automatically goes agro on the group  or a named general with a private guard comes walking around a corner only to find you beating down his minions. Now that would be fun.... any time, any where... surprise! 


    This post was edited by Aatu at July 25, 2017 7:41 PM PDT
    • 281 posts
    July 26, 2017 8:10 AM PDT

    I agree with you that the kind of "traps" that EQ1 had in its early dungeons were 1) not that significant in terms of damage and 2) once you knew where they were, you could avoid them.  And, in terms of hidden weak floors and stone pillars crashing down, that works just fine.  In other cases, not so much.  Similar can be done with traps that you are mentioning regarding random guards, named, etc.  Traps that aren't always there, that randomly appear and if you aren't paying attention can get you.  Probably, there would be preset spots that they can show and are on random timers.  That would add a level of "keep your eyes open" to a dungeon. 

    • 542 posts
    July 26, 2017 8:15 AM PDT

    in order to keep the sense of danger,traps would need random places.There might be environmental risks like collapsing ceilings too

    • 2752 posts
    July 26, 2017 10:00 AM PDT

    100% agree here. I want the return and expansion upon cramped dungeons that you almost need to 1st person your way through. Tight, dark, murky halls and antechambers leading into some larger rooms before back into the dark claustrophobia of the muck and mire. 

     

    I think it goes a long way to making dungeons feel very unique by having some small/tight dungeons (not necessarily labyrinthian) with some normal sized and some grand and towering open places. The more variance the more each comes to life and feels less like cave variant #2, castle re-skin #4, zone a with zone b textures. Plus I hate how all the modern MMOs seem to always use large/giant rooms and spaces which both makes me feel small and takes me out of character a bit because it feels so unnatural having everywhere I go (often simple houses included) have tall ceilings and entryways. 

    • 542 posts
    July 26, 2017 10:36 AM PDT

    True,the more variance the more the adventure comes to life
    Reskins often make players feel like "been there done that"
    I know a large majority of players praise skyrim (and I'm not bashing ,its ok if you love the game)
    but I found the instances so repetitive in that game. Like there were only 6 different themes and hundreds of re-skin dungeons with a slightly different layout.

    I also like the idea of how one small tunnel can lead to other unexpected things,like a gigantic underground cavern where a long lost civilization waits to be discovered 

    • 1019 posts
    July 26, 2017 3:46 PM PDT

    I like open dungeons.  Remember Stonehenge in DAoC.  That was a great dungeon.

    • 2 posts
    August 2, 2017 1:47 PM PDT

    I completely agree with the OP, I loved how claustrophobic and cramped some of those spaces felt in Sol/Guk... it made the architecture of the level design matter more, the space itself was part of the gameplay experience. When everything is wide open, the architecture just sort of becomes "background." Learning how to negotiate and move through the close-quartered space became such an intimate part of the challenge of a dungeon. That's what made playing in dungeons feel so special and different than an outdoor engagement to me. As a previous poster stated, making indoor spaces too large blurs that distinction between feeling outdoor and indoor.

    I always prefered 1st person too, but I don't think 3rd person prohibits level design like this, the camera just has to adapt in a smart way. Another challenge to overcome but worth the payoff.

    I also really loved zones like Sebilis that had a huge dynamic range of space... small cramped and labyrinthian passages would link up together into huge multi-level spaces. Varying the ceiling height too can feel really dramatic. I remember reading somewhere Frank Lloyd Wright would varry the height of the ceilings in each room of his buildings to make you feel like you were on a journey.

     

    • 542 posts
    August 2, 2017 2:18 PM PDT

    fern said:

    I loved how claustrophobic and cramped some of those spaces felt in Sol/Guk... it made the architecture of the level design matter more, the space itself was part of the gameplay experience. When everything is wide open, the architecture just sort of becomes "background." Learning how to negotiate and move through the close-quartered space became such an intimate part of the challenge of a dungeon.

    in many games the whole experiences just goes to waste because the envionment has no danger  or purpose(way to interact with)

    I think it would actually encourage communication "How are you doing on the other side Pete?Is it safe to come through?"

    If Pete would be an NPC I guess you could have these situations,like in stargate, where Pete gives no response

    "Pete?" and then a fat Ogre burps up a devoured eye of him on the other side that rolls through the claustrophobic space towards you.


    This post was edited by Fluffy at August 2, 2017 2:20 PM PDT
    • 2886 posts
    August 2, 2017 2:32 PM PDT

    As others have said, there will definitely stuff like that in Pantheon, no doubt. I'm right there will you, Laura. Those are my favorite too :)


    This post was edited by Bazgrim at August 2, 2017 2:35 PM PDT
    • 769 posts
    August 2, 2017 4:52 PM PDT

    That's a big giant heck yes to claustrophobic dungeons.

     

    I understand the fear some people have with having to choose a smaller race at inception just because they don't want to be stuck - but to me that just adds a whole new dynamic that's been missing from other games. Anything that has even the slightest chance of creating a unique situation should be in Pantheon.

     

    So you're a giant Ogre, and you can't fit your fat a$$ through the corridor. What do you do? Make sure you leveled up that potion making ability for some shrink potions, or buy some from the enterprising little gnome over yonder, hawking his wares.

     

    That's what MMO's should be about. That's what's been missing. Obstacles that require resolutions that aren't shared by every single other race or class in the game. Roadblocks unique to the players.

     

    Maybe gnomes would need to purchase some levitationg or growth potions just to climb some giant stairs in another dungeon? Who knows? Throw as many of those tiny little things in the game as you want. Make it suck for us all in little ways. It's through that suck that we create the good stories.

    • 15 posts
    August 4, 2017 5:38 PM PDT

    I definitely want to pile on to Laura's sentiment as well. Some of my best memories are in the Guks and I remember the cramped feeling. It adds a sense of urgency or edge. Some people are concerned that running around as a larger character would become a detriment, but you'll learn where those areas are and how to work around them. Also, being super small can have the opposite advantage in a smaller dungeon, everyone else is gigantic and they will fill your line of vision much more even if they are human sized. Also, drops are a bit more surprising. I used to play a gnome in EQ, and I remember once I was speeding along with a SoW in first person, pitter pattering along, and next thing I knew I was falling off of a cliff. I think I was leaving Highpass Hold or something going into East Karana (it's been a while I might have my zones wrong) for the first time. It had been a long drop, and ultimately a death. Anyways, I am pretty sure at that moment I was hanging my head in shame/frustration, but now that 10+ year old memory still brings a smile and a chuckle.

    The above memory also addresses the concerns about static heavy hitting traps. Yes, you may know about them afterwards and they aren't a surprise any longer, but that first encounter was most likely a big surprise, and a memorable moment. You may also encounter warnings outside of the game about these types of traps, but that is more likely if you are researching the dungeon or area, which in that case you are trying to avoid surprises anyways. So I would say its a moot point there. You are looking for spoilers so you get your spoilers.

    Another thing that made me happy to see in a stream a whiel ago, was sliding on ice. I have very fond memories of Velketor's Labyrinth, slip sliding along trying to get to your camp. It was a dungeon that was ice, you would slide, and the dungeon was basically vertical, you had to head up paths that had corners and switchbacks. You had to anticipate how long you would slide before you hit a corner on the ramp you were going up. And if you fell off you were at the bottom of the dungeon, usually alive if I remember right, but not for long if there were mobs. I have memories of holding my breath when I realized I should have stopped earlier thinking I'm going to fall, but manage to not fall by a hair. I also have memories of falling, surviving the drops and just barely surviving as I ran the mobs back to my camp and my group.

    So overall yes, I think there should definitely be some good dungeons that make you feel a bit closed in, ones where you have to tread slowly otherwise you might slide off of an edge. It makes them more memorable and interesting. :)

    • 999 posts
    August 13, 2017 5:36 PM PDT

    I agree - I loved some of the claustrophobic dungeons in EQ (bad pathing at times and all!).  And I think a great point you make in your post that is often lost in the mix of what made EQ so immersive was the forced 1st person view at launch.  I know if 1st/3rd views are optional choices, I nearly always will choose third just for the gameplay/tactical advantage it offers, but I believe the first person views added as much to the "feel" and claustrophobia as did the dungeon designs themselves.

    Perhaps in Pantheon, the perception system could be tied into forcing first person.  Some messaging like..."you feel your senses becoming dulled..." which forces the first person view situationally.  I would love to see a return to it; although, I think you would be hard pressed to get gamers to agree to a permanent 1st person view today.

    • 1399 posts
    August 13, 2017 8:22 PM PDT

    I agree with the OP on this and I noticed it hadn't been shared in this thread yet so I figured I would add it..... from the FAQ

    20.10 Would you say that the world is being designed more for 1st or 3rd person view? Will there be claustrophobic dungeons that make 3rd person play difficult? Will every dungeon have high ceilings for a 3rd person camera?

    We test consistently in both and plan to support both. There are indeed areas where one view may be advantageous over another.

    • 109 posts
    August 13, 2017 9:33 PM PDT

    I want to say that I also agree with a majority of the OP. 

    Sol A and B were narrow and had some trecherous areas in both. I loved the art work on the walls in sol b. 

    I get what the OP is saying with dungeons all be really big. The mage tower in the stream is beautiful. but its also 40' wide halls with 50' ceilings. Those types of dungeons serve a purpose I supposed. They just don't seem to be very creative.  Halls (check), mobs in each room (check) ok. lets purdy this thing up and call it done.... 

    In one of the streams (1st one i think) they went into that one area where they fought the named mob. (looked like a big dark cave and showed the perception system near that pillar) That one was also 20' wide and 40' ceilings. and boring non descipt brown/gray walls. 

    But I also agree that not all dungeons need to be small and tight either. 

    Traps... hmm..  not sure how I feel about it. It depends on how they handle death. 

    I would hate it if I were trying to get a group with 2 hours to play, and fall in a trap on my way, they kick me and move on while I spend my 2 hours play time trying to get my coprse back. 

    I am hoping there isn't naked corpse runs. Sounded good back in EQ days where a 3 hour corpse run was just part of my night, but now, it may be my entire time to play for the night... 

    I agree that I do wanna see something else. I will play this game no matter what, but I don't hide the fact that I do not like the "ART" direction in MANY areas that I have seen so far. 

    It seems bland and boring.. I think the art isn't nearly as good as some games like ESO, Ashes of Creation, and some of GW2.  I just hope because every zone in Pantheon is 6 miles wide, it's not void of creatures and Life. 

    Here's to hoping they get creative with a dungeon or two... ( or anywhere really. something besides, rocks, trees, grass/snow...) 

    /cheers

     


    This post was edited by Naim at August 13, 2017 9:49 PM PDT