I couldn't find if this was mentioned anywhere.
In the earlier versions of WoW for example, people would downrank for certain things for faster cast or to be more mana conservative, etc.
For example: Mages could cast rank 1 frostbolt for a faster cast time and less mana cost, but the downside is it does little to no damage and has less of a speed reduction than the higher ranks.
Will downranking exist in Pantheon to allow for more clever use of mechanics or will the players be forced to "Upgrade" their abilities where they lose the previous tier when training the new tier?
Hope this question is not confusing.
Thanks
I'm thinking yes this will be a thing and if I remember right Joppa talked about it either in the Dec. Stream and this last one. Sorry I don't have exact link or answer, but I believe the answer is yes this will be a thing. If I run across the video where he said it again I'll post it here.
*edit* I misunderstood the question. I thought you were asking about mentoring.
In EQ, a new version of a spell did not remove or "hide" the old version of that spell. So you were free to use both at the same time (since they also didn't share a cooldown). It made sense to continue to use the old spell in some cases, because the new version usually had a comparatively high mana cost and higher fizzle rate until your magic skills also raised a bit. You basically had to "grow" into using the new spell over time.
I think this was a good system, and I don't think this caused real problems in EQ, and shouldn't in Pantheon either.
Aradune said:Sometimes you'd mem both your best healing spell (just as an example) but you'd also fill up a slot with a lesser powerful healing spell as well.
Why? Because often times it wasn't simply true that using your latest and greatest spell was always the best strategy. Sometimes it was more mana efficient to use your lesser heals and you'd hold back and only use your latest and greatest when the situation truly called for it.
At this point, as I mentioned right away at the beginning, it's still too early to commit to specifics.
This implies (that current thinking is) that (like EQ) each new spell in a 'line' has it's own name with power/mana/cast-time and so you can choose which to add to your list of (currently 'eight') memorised spells. You could memorise multiple versions of the same spell!
Eg : FireBolt line of spells with current spell names:
Spell Lev 01: Weak-a$$ FireBolt (mana 2, dmg 1-4, cast time 0.6 secs)
Spell Lev 04: Pathetic FireBolt (mana 10, dmg 8-14, cast time 1.8 secs)
Spell Lev 08: Miserable FireBolt (mana 20, dmg 18-36, cast time 2.1 secs)
Spell Lev 12: Tepid FireBolt (mana 32, dmg 32-56, cast time 2.4 secs)
Spell Lev 20: LukeWarm FireBolt (mana 60, dmg 64-80, cast time 3.2 secs)
Spell Lev 24: Warm FireBolt (mana 80, dmg 72-100, cast time 3.8 secs)
Spell Lev 32: Hot FireBolt (mana 120, dmg 128-164, cast time 4.6 secs)
Spell Lev 40: Scorchio FireBolt (mana 160, dmg 180-240, cast time 5.2 secs)
Spell Lev 48: Ouch-Ouch FireBolt (mana 240, dmg 320-440, cast time 7.8 secs)
Spell Lev 50: Aaaaaaaargh FireBolt (mana 360, dmg 640-1400, cast time 14.4 secs)
Hopefully you get the idea!
Evoras, may have made these up...
Liav said:At the same time, it didn't really add anything to EQ either to have to be unable to use a new spell effectively, either.
Spamming a skill a thousand times to raise a number for the sake of raising a number doesn't scream interesting gameplay to me.
IMO it added quite a bit immersion. After all, you had finally gained enough experience to level up, and gained a new spell...it should be difficult to use at first, until you practice more.
I'll agree with you however that raising skills could be tedious at times, especially for spell schools for which your class had no useful spells (or only gained them late).
I don't know why, but I like the idea of having big heavy hitting spells that do all the damage, and little itty bitty ones that you will use most of the time. I've played a bit of Vanilla WoW on a private server and the whole extra spells thing wasn't bad, but it kinda didn't make any of my abilities feel important.
For instance, lets say I have this big AOE ability that's my biggest, heaviest, hardest hitting ability. You're NEVER going to want anyone to be able to spam something like that. Not even in a smaller version. If they create smaller versions of these, some of the other spells will be useless. Then maybe you'll only have 5 abilities max that you use, but you fill your bars up with 5 different versions of them? Giving you a fake amount of 25 "spells" to use.
I definitely don't mind the idea. Nothing will be a make or break for this game with me unless I lose all my gear from dying (then I will rage quit). But it really doesn't add to the uniqueness of characters I feel. And I think it adds a little less strategizing with those. Spam the little ones to keep doing damage. Go bigger if it's not enough but keep saving mana and spam more for more damage. Where normally, if you are given a set amount of skills and each level up with the character, you have to learn to use it while fighting. That kind of goes with the growth of your character, too, ya know?
Hopefully as the game gets more and more developed, they will be able to go into more detail about this kinda stuff. I may add this to my list of questions to ask for the next stream.
Sarim said:IMO it added quite a bit immersion. After all, you had finally gained enough experience to level up, and gained a new spell...it should be difficult to use at first, until you practice more.
I'll agree with you however that raising skills could be tedious at times, especially for spell schools for which your class had no useful spells (or only gained them late).
I'm almost envious of how easy it is for some people to be immersed.
dorotea said:While I definitely understand Liav's position I am inclined to go along with Sarim on this one. Maybe too much time playing Elder Scrolls single player games.
I would have to agree with Sarim as well.
Understanding when an older spell actually works better in a given situation is part of what made EQ easy to learn and difficult to master.
In EQ as a healer I would keep my big heal ready for the tanks and spot heal casters etc with the older ones. Casters don't need a complete heal, they need a fast small bump here and there usually.
Thus the need to keep the latest and greatest along with the older but reliable spells on the bar.
If all I had used was my latest and greatest I would have been an ineffective always out of mana healer.
-Az
I can't really remember which game it was, but I definitely remember playing one where it absolutely made sense to have a lower level version of certain spells on your hotbars for mana management issues. I think it was EQOA but I could be wrong. Anyway, I liked it ... but I also don't think I had super limited hotbars like we'll have in Pantheon. Going to be interesting seeing how we prioritize what abilities/spells we can use at any given time.
I'd have to say that I am more in favor of having your old spells still have a use once you have learned the next, nigher level one. Did this quite a bit in EQ1 on my shaman. In groups where we were taking care of business quite easily, the lower level spell made sense...less mana, less downtime. Eventually we made our way to fights that required the full potency of the newer spell, along with the art of mana management.
The less 'spell lines' that make it into the final product the better. Downranking is often an indication of poor design; rather I would like to see clever spell development. It would be preferable to see spells stand on their own and retain situational usefulness across the lifetime of a character.
Of course there will be outlier situations. For example, if you are killing a level 15 mob at level 40 you probably won't be using your strongest nuke. I'm fine with this type of thing, I just think having ranks of spells is more lazy than anything else. If you have to implement 10 ranks of frostbolt then something needs to change in your design philosophy.